Failed Prophecy of the Church

[Aryeh Jay]

Or, completed it.

And that would be CHANGING it.

 

[ChetSinger]

Oh my...

There's more common ground between Judaism and Islam than there could ever be between Judaism and Christianity, both theologically and in terms of their extensive law-based morality.

Hello! I'll disagree with that, with the caveat that we're discussing Judaism as it existed 2,000 years ago, when Christianity began.

The Judaism of that time included a widespread belief in a binitarian Godhead. It appears to have been considered orthodox because rabbinic scholars Boyarin and Segal were unable to find any pre-Christian condemnations of it. Today it's identified using terms such as "two powers in heaven", "word theology", or "memra theology".

That Godhead was based on OT readings including the cloud-walking "son of Man" in Daniel 7 who had a throne waiting for him in heaven. In the ANE, only gods walked on clouds. Jesus self-identified as that figure many times, and his final claim to it at his trial was what got him convicted of blasphemy. The chief priests "knew" he couldn't be a figure in the Godhead because they "knew" of his birth and upbringing.

Reading Acts, it's obvious that the first Christians didn't see themselves as starting a new religion, or even a new sect. They were orthodox, observant Jews who had experienced the promised messiah and wanted to spread the news. They still went to temple, kept kosher, and kept the Law. Christianity began losing its Jewish identity when the council in Jerusalem (Acts 15) exempted Gentile converts from keeping the Law.

Regarding Islam, I think Islamic respect for Judaism and Christianity is often overstated. Muslims don't accept the Jewish or Christian scriptures as they're written, considering them corrupted. Contrast that with Christians, who accept the entire Jewish Bible as inspired.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Hello! I'll disagree with that, with the caveat that we're discussing Judaism as it existed 2,000 years ago, when Christianity began.

The Judaism at that time included a widespread belief in a binitarian Godhead. It appears to have been considered orthodox because rabbinic scholars Boyarin and Segal were unable to find any pre-Christian condemnations of it. Today it's identified using terms such as "two powers in heaven", "word theology", or "memra theology".

That Godhead was based on OT readings including the cloud-walking "son of Man" in Daniel 7 who had a throne waiting for him in heaven. In the ANE, only gods walked on clouds. Jesus self-identified as that figure many times, and his final claim to it at his trial was what got him convicted of blasphemy. The chief priests "knew" he couldn't be a figure in the Godhead because they "knew" of his birth and upbringing.

Reading Acts, it's obvious that the first Christians didn't see themselves as starting a new religion, or even a new sect. They were orthodox, observant Jews who had experienced the promised messiah and wanted to spread the news. They still went to temple, kept kosher, and kept the Law. Christianity began losing its Jewish identity when the council in Jerusalem (Acts 15) exempted Gentile converts from keeping the Law.

I think Islamic respect for Judaism and Christianity is often overstated. Muslims don't accept the Jewish or Christian scriptures as they're written, considering them corrupted. Contrast that with Christians, who accept the entire Jewish Bible as inspired.

Deuteronomy 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.


The Torah trumps Daniel 100% of the time.

 

[ChetSinger]

Deuteronomy 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

The Torah trumps Daniel 100% of the time.

Yes, the LORD is one. But the word translated as "one", "echad", is used multiple times in the Hebrew scriptures to describe something that is itself comprised of multiple parts. It will take a little time to look those passages up, but I'll be happy to do it if you ask.

Afaik, rabbinic condemnations of that early Godhead belief didn't begin until after Christianity was established. Until pre-Christian condemnations can be found, I'll argue that Judaism dumped that belief in response to the rise of Christianity.

 

[LoAmmi]

Afaik, rabbinic condemnations of that early Godhead belief didn't begin until after Christianity was established. Until pre-Christian condemnations can be found, I'll argue that Judaism dumped that belief in response to the rise of Christianity.

I think your own New Testament shows that there was already a condemnation for that belief among some sects. If it were something that Jews simply accepted back then, why would the Pharisees and Sadducces go after Jesus at all? Wouldn't they be happy that the Messiah (the second power) was coming finally? I fully accept that some groups might have had that idea, as strange beliefs in Judaism are not uncommon among mystics.

Let's not forget that the coming of the Messiah would signal the end of Roman occupation and the Jewish people becoming very powerful among the nations. The Tanach is clear that Gentiles of all nations would come to the Jews to learn. Why would they reject such a notion?

I've heard it said that they were afraid they'd lose power but that doesn't jive with what the Pharisees believed would happen when the Messiah came. If, however, the leadership already rejected the idea as heretical and potentially blasphemous, then a person declaring they were this second power would be blasphemous.

 

[smaneck]

I don't think so. Baha'i changed the doctrine of Islam a lot. But Christianity does not change a single doctrine in Judaism.

I was about to jump on this but I see everyone else already has.

 

[smaneck]

If they do, they are Christians.
All Christians accept that YHWH is God.

YHWH isn't even mentioned in the New Testament and all Baha'is accept Allah. We even greet one another with the phrase Allah'u'Abha (God is most Glorious.)

 

[juvenissun]

And that would be CHANGING it.

It was A
Now it is AB.
It does not change the A.

 

[LoAmmi]

It was A
Now it is AB.
It does not change the A.

I couldn't disagree more with this.

 

[juvenissun]

YHWH isn't even mentioned in the New Testament and all Baha'is accept Allah. We even greet one another with the phrase Allah'u'Abha (God is most Glorious.)

It does not have to. It is a continuation. The NT introduces Jesus.

 

[Robban]

Hello! I'll disagree with that, with the caveat that we're discussing Judaism as it existed 2,000 years ago, when Christianity began.

The Judaism of that time included a widespread belief in a binitarian Godhead. It appears to have been considered orthodox because rabbinic scholars Boyarin and Segal were unable to find any pre-Christian condemnations of it. Today it's identified using terms such as "two powers in heaven", "word theology", or "memra theology".

That Godhead was based on OT readings including the cloud-walking "son of Man" in Daniel 7 who had a throne waiting for him in heaven. In the ANE, only gods walked on clouds. Jesus self-identified as that figure many times, and his final claim to it at his trial was what got him convicted of blasphemy. The chief priests "knew" he couldn't be a figure in the Godhead because they "knew" of his birth and upbringing.

Reading Acts, it's obvious that the first Christians didn't see themselves as starting a new religion, or even a new sect. They were orthodox, observant Jews who had experienced the promised messiah and wanted to spread the news. They still went to temple, kept kosher, and kept the Law. Christianity began losing its Jewish identity when the council in Jerusalem (Acts 15) exempted Gentile converts from keeping the Law.

Regarding Islam, I think Islamic respect for Judaism and Christianity is often overstated. Muslims don't accept the Jewish or Christian scriptures as they're written, considering them corrupted. Contrast that with Christians, who accept the entire Jewish Bible as inspired.

The Picture that is painted in my mind is not gods or anything else floating around on Clouds.
But a question pops up.

What moves swiftest,
a cloud or a donkey?

 

[smaneck]

It was A
Now it is AB.
It does not change the A.

More like ABC given the Trinity.

But how do you think this is different from the Baha'i Faith in relationship to Islam?

Baha'is are rather firm in our insistence on the Oneness of God although Sunni Muslims consider our belief in Manifestations to be shirk.

 

[smaneck]

It does not have to. It is a continuation. The NT introduces Jesus.

And the Baha'i Faith introduces Baha'u'llah. This is different how?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

More like ABC given the Trinity.

But how do you think this is different from the Baha'i Faith in relationship to Islam how?

I was thinking the same thing. I guess there is a need to be associated with something while distancing yourself from it at the same time.

 

[ChetSinger]

I think your own New Testament shows that there was already a condemnation for that belief among some sects. If it were something that Jews simply accepted back then, why would the Pharisees and Sadducces go after Jesus at all? Wouldn't they be happy that the Messiah (the second power) was coming finally? I fully accept that some groups might have had that idea, as strange beliefs in Judaism are not uncommon among mystics.

They thought he was a pretender. He claimed to be YHWH multiple times such as at his trial, and in John 8. But they knew him as Jesus of Nazareth, who grew up as a kid in Galilee and was the son of a carpenter. So he was either YHWH as he claimed, or a blasphemer. They finally voted for blasphemer.

Let's not forget that the coming of the Messiah would signal the end of Roman occupation and the Jewish people becoming very powerful among the nations. The Tanach is clear that Gentiles of all nations would come to the Jews to learn. Why would they reject such a notion?

Some prophecies are yet to be fulfilled. But Gentiles of all nations have been coming to the Jews to learn for 2,000 years: the NT was written by Jews (with the possible exception of Luke).

I've heard it said that they were afraid they'd lose power but that doesn't jive with what the Pharisees believed would happen when the Messiah came. If, however, the leadership already rejected the idea as heretical and potentially blasphemous, then a person declaring they were this second power would be blasphemous.

As I said above, I believe he was convicted of blasphemy because they didn't believe he was who he claimed to be.

 

[ChetSinger]

The Picture that is painted in my mind is not gods or anything else floating around on Clouds.
But a question pops up.

What moves swiftest,
a cloud or a donkey?

Is that a riddle? I'll vote for the cloud. I once tried and failed to get a recalcitrant donkey to move.

 

[LoAmmi]

They thought he was a pretender. He claimed to be YHWH multiple times such as at his trial, and in John 8. But they knew him as Jesus of Nazareth, who grew up as a kid in Galilee and was the son of a carpenter. So he was either YHWH as he claimed, or a blasphemer. They finally voted for blasphemer.

But if they believed in this second power, why go to that? Why wouldn't they even consider it was possible? The New Testament doesn't record them discussing the idea that he could be this fabled second power.

Some prophecies are yet to be fulfilled. But Gentiles of all nations have been coming to the Jews to learn for 2,000 years: the NT was written by Jews (with the possible exception of Luke).

Ten mean of all nations shall grab the garment of a Jew and ask to go with them to be taught. Not even close to what you describe.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

May be.

But this argument does not do anything to the fact that Christianity does not change a bit on the doctrine of Judaism. It is only an extension of Judaism. This critical extension completes what's lacking in the Judaism.

I know that's how Christians like to perceive themselves, but their utter disregard for Mosaic law, their trinitarian theology and their concept of God becoming Man to sacrifice himself to himself (or pay the ransom to Satan, according to some interpretations) is UTTERLY ALIEN to Judaism. It's not an extension of Judaism, it's a completely different animal, and only uses older scriptures through the lens of retroactive continuity.

The closest analogue I can think of is the Latter Day Saints, who see themselves as an "extension" of Christianity while in fact establishing a wholly different theological foundation through their own scriptures.

 

[ChetSinger]

But if they believed in this second power, why go to that? Why wouldn't they even consider it was possible? The New Testament doesn't record them discussing the idea that he could be this fabled second power.

That the belief existed and was both widespread and considered orthodox has been confirmed by Segal and Boyarin.

But in all of Jewish history there had never been what Christians now call the Incarnation. That is, the appearances of YHWH in the Hebrew scriptures had never included being born from a human woman and growing up through childhood as Jesus did.

Without any such historical precedent, Jesus was never going to be considered YHWH himself. Given the signs he did, the people who liked him debated whether he was a prophet, or perhaps Elijah. The people who didn't said he used the power of the devil.

Ten mean of all nations shall grab the garment of a Jew and ask to go with them to be taught. Not even close to what you describe.

Many prophecies have yet to be fulfilled.

 

[katerinah1947]

I have always wondered how the JW or Watchtower Church still persists to this day.

They openly predicted the end of the world multiple times and got it wrong every time. Does this not satisfy the test for a false prophet?

Deuteronomy 18:20-22
But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak—that prophet shall die.” You may say to yourself, “How can we recognize a word that the Lord has not spoken?” If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses

Hi,

After spending about 12 years on The Witnesses, trying to understand if they were right or not, thus learning The actual Bible, much better, four things really helped me.

All four of those things are directly attributable to God. One of those is from Mary, at least.

1) I am not allowed to teach.

2)The Rosetta Stone version of JW's definition of prophet.

3)A Holy Spirit lesson on them.

4)A Marian protection while engaging some top ranked JW's.



1), since I am bad at teaching, I can only listen, ask questions and tell of my personal experiences.

2) Translated, with a staunch JW, their description of prophet is totally honest. Untranslated it is totally dishonest.

Untranslated. We are prophets like Ezeliel when he stood on the wall talking. We are not..... We are and you can check the records. It is one thing say you are one, and another to ...

Translated: We are neither infallible, like The Catholics, nor are we inerrant like the Protestant, we all are prophets when we act like the prophet Ezekiel. If you don't believe us check the record. It is one thing to say we all act like Ezekeil in that way. It is another thing to prove it.

My staunch JW person then said to me: "Why do you think we have had to change what we say for so many years."

Earlier after chewing me out once again, for getting things about JW's from others and not her, on my most recent find, A long JW description on JW prophets, she affirmed that my source was from the JW organization.

3) The Holy Spirit, in that approved Private Revelation gave me, Matthew 7:15, when I told God that I had nothing for the JW's just after finishing with some Mormons.

What prompted this was The Holy Spirit had been taking me over verbally for years on The Mormons. Then later I would try and remember what He Said to Them.

Thus particular day, when the Mormons showed up, I had even more information. This time though it was inside of me.

So, after finishing I turned around and walked back into the interior of my home, and told God, looking up to heaven, that I had nothing for them.

~Matthew 7:15~

I looked it up then. It made no sense to me.

Trying to understand why That Was True about them, it was Matthew 7:16, that showed me why That Was True of them. Matthew 7:15.

Of the leaders and the staunch promoters of JW, they are all mean.

They are like briars, the men, Personalty wise, when not acting.

The women, personality wise, are like thorns, when not acting.

4) I was accused by a staunch JW of never just being friendly. I then agreed to a meeting, in which two long term members and I would meet just as friends and nothing else.

Before I arrived, as I was petrified, I did something very Marian. In the sign of a cross using my heart only, and from a distance while driving there, I blessed all the spaces I would be in, and all the spaces outside and under the house, in block spaces, and all the outside corners, and the under and over house corners, until all spaces leading into and out of the house were blessed. Layers were added. More are below. Fewer are on top. The sides are all medium. There are only two or three layers. I think I used two layers that day.

(One day with a priest who was old, in a care facility, the priest said something. He was being hurt by someone somehow, mystically. He didn't want to go down to supper because of that woman. I was furious.

No one attacks a priest.

Without telling him, I blessed all the spaces, in layers, the corners, the outsides, the insides, when I hit the above spaces for the first time ever, Michael was there with the troops. Angels were everywhere. I never knew what blessing of spaces was before.

Michael was above the other angels slightly, his arm was raised, the sword was in his hand.

I spoke. "Michael is here." Earlier I told him, that I was going to go down with him and eat. I will take her on. I was beyond reason. No one attacks a priest. I actually meant this guy, as he is a real priest, not the ones that some of us have to run from.

This guy was sweet to everyone, always, and totally knew God and Mary.)

Stacked, the house was, and the conversation ensued, with me just being friends.

She shifts. She starts talking about the name of God being removed from the Bible.

I am confused. I don't teach. I only listen. Still I could not understand her point.

Finally, to my question she affirmed my question. The reason she was talking about the name of God, was that it is impossible to know anything about God if you can't say His name properly. (But wait. Wait.)

I thanked her and continued to listen. From start to finish, other than my two questions, she spent twenty minutes telling me about the various and numerous places the name of God was removed from The Bible.

She then stopped. Enter The Holy Spirit.

I then instantly saw and renembered a dictionary definition of the word Jehovah in a dictionary that I had used one day, for that.

Without a word from me, (think Holy Spirit now, and how He works silently to us for the most part ), she starts in again on the vowels, that are not in the Name of God, in the Bible.

Stunned, then but not now, just recently now anymore, in the first saying of that above only, not ever before today or that moment, again think Holy Spirit, she starts in as though she read my mind, and was countering my internal thoughts.

Her when done: "Of course we don't know how to say His Name Properly..."

Too stunned, I stood up blubbering. Twenty minutes. She took twenty minutes to tell me the JW's know nothing of God.

Me: "you can't know....anything about God if you don't know His name..... You don't know His Name. You..don't know anything about God..."

Still too stunned to understand, why she took twenty minutes to teach me that JW truth, I was standing somehow, and dizzy.

What just happened. Slowly I exited, and remember nothing more than her attempts to start a verbal fight with me then. She wanted me to accuse her of being a silly woman. I was still too stunned to understand that either then.

So, I departed. Later, I realized that I could not say that I was not protected by God there.

Today, I can no longer say that what was put into my heart's reality (really as though it were me and I was it,) and what she heard about the dictionary definition of Jehovah and the vowel issue, plus who and when that mistake was made, I can no longer say that The Holy Spirit did not give us that information, Simultaneously.

And, I know why also.

LOVE,