LDS Is Moroni a fallen demonic angel?

[Jane_Doe]

I think what the early Bible manuscripts show and what the Dead Sea Scrolls show is that we have almost an exact duplicate of 2,000 - 3,000 year old texts. Texts that much care was taken when making copies of by the scribes.

The Bible itself is a book that shows culture in what the time was like if you read it and understand it. The thing about the Bible is that there are a lot of cross references. Most people think the Bible reads like a story or novel, but that is not the way it is written, nor the way it should be read. Verses and context comes to life when you are able to build a complete story through cross-references and really understand the times and the way the people were, and I disagree because I think that a lot can be learned by the culture. We have Bible dictionaries, encyclopedia's, we know the timelines of when things occured, politics of the era, who was in power and what other cultures were like in those times.

In my opinion, the larger picture is all there for the one who wants to put it in the larger, proper perspective. That is one of the things I find fascinating with the Bible is learning little things about the culture.

I'll give you an example. In those days the males stayed with the family (in Jesus time) and it was the eldest male's job to take care of his mother if her husband had passed. So before Jesus died he told one of His disciples, 'this is your mother, mother this is your son'. What He was in essence doing is because He knew He would be crucified and die, He was ensuring care for His mother after His death. Another interesting thing of that time is that the sons stayed with the family, for instance if a son married, the woman always left her family to move to the place of her husband;s family and that was how it was done. One of the major reasons is because land was one of the only things that was inherited because the people (Hebrews) were heavily taxed by Rome and needed the land to survive and needed the land to stay in the family and not be divided or sold because the entire future generations depended on it. It was not easy to buy land again, so it was cherished as the inheritance to the males in the family.

So, it does add to the BIble for me to know and learn these cultural aspects because then things are put in context.

Just my opinion but those are some examples of why I enjoy that aspect.

TBL, you seem to put a lot of stock in the Dead Sea Scrolls. While the Dead Sea Scrolls are a fantastic archeological find, I really don't see them proving Christianity is true because:
1) The Dead Sea Scrolls are jewish scripture, not Christian
2) They contain non-Biblical documents as well, and sections of the Apocrypha (i.e. books included in some Bibles but removed from most protestant Bibles).
3) The simple existence of a religious document does not in any way prove it's truthfulness. For example, the Rigveda of Hinduism has existed since 1700-1100 BC, but in no way proves the truthfulness of Hinduism. Similarly, the religious writings on the Egyptian pyramids no way proves their truthfulness.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You guys can be so maddeningly vague---------













If you got something to say--"SAY IT"---And lookey there, who is the vaguest?--fatboys!
Come on---if you accuse someone of plagiarism, quote the passages and prove it--if a poster states something in your history wrongly--then state the passages and correct them--you got discoveries in archaeology that prove BOM---then state it and back up with sources---and stating vague stuff like the captivity of Adam and Eve needs to have some sort of explanation for there is no such thing mentioned in the bible---
Get real folks---you don't like it if we do it.

It's been this way on all the LDS threads since this subforum was created.

That's why I don't think we see a lot of new threads in this subforum.

We can talk to anyone and get evasion
Even the atheists. Headaches there are a dime a dozen. They'll have no live threads soon, so they may just bury themselves. They can't start a thread and so we are all they have here.

I'm sure that it'll all come around.

 

[ToBeLoved]

TBL, you seem to put a lot of stock in the Dead Sea Scrolls. While the Dead Sea Scrolls are a fantastic archeological find, I really don't see them proving Christianity is true because:
1) The Dead Sea Scrolls are jewish scripture, not Christian
2) They contain non-Biblical documents as well, and sections of the Apocrypha (i.e. books included in some Bibles but removed from most protestant Bibles).
3) The simple existence of a religious document does not in any way prove it's truthfulness. For example, the Rigveda of Hinduism has existed since 1700-1100 BC, but in no way proves the truthfulness of Hinduism. Similarly, the religious writings on the Egyptian pyramids no way proves their truthfulness.

I don't need to prove to you Christianity is true. I do not care to convince you nor argue it.

That is what you keep saying, like I need to prove something. Take it as a statement, not a question.

You insult us when your doctrine is based on a man, a non Biblical angel, some gold tablets and a seeing stone.

MOVE ON. Defend your beliefs. See that your beliefs have no history.

Tell us why you are and who you
Are.

Be glad that there is a Bible because that is the one thing that does not lead astray. Show some respect for our Lord and God's Word. Nothing about these conversations is about spirituality. You rip your own God. I'm sure He does not think it is cute.

Talk about yourselves. This is the point. We can go anywhere and talk about our doctrine. And soon many probably will, because we cannot have a conversation here without saying.

Can you explain that?

What do you mean?

Do you have scriptural support?

What is your source?

I can only think that this is the way that Mormonism feels about there faith. Non concise and using deflection. Because that is what we have experienced.
I should also add misinterpretation of scripture.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I don't need to prove to you Christianity is true. I do not care to convince you nor argue it.

That is what you keep saying, like I need to prove something. Take it as a statement, not a question.

You insult us when your doctrine is based on a man, a non Biblical angel, some gold tablets and a seeing stone.

MOVE ON. Defend your beliefs. Stop crying wolf. See that your beliefs have no history.

Stop taking a dump in Christianity's ocean when your own small lake is polluted.

You believe it. So tell us why.

Don't worry about Christianity. That's the last thing you need to worry about is us.

Wow! Talk about an angry post!

Settle down, take a deep breath. I'm not attacking/insulting you, Christianity at large, or anything else. No need to get upset, insulting, or attacking.

* Deep cleansing breath*

Now, can we have a civil conversation?

 

[rockytopva]

I think the LDS has a fine structure to it and its members are very much Christian in character. The problem is the story of Mormon, Moroni, Nephites, Lamanites, Jaredites... And the whole fantastical bag. And to quote the Wiki once again...

"Some Mormon scholars claim that the forebears of the Nephites settled somewhere in present-day Central America after departing Jerusalem. However, both the Smithsonian Institution and the National Geographic Society have issued statements that they have seen no evidence to support these claims in the Book of Mormon and no non-Mormon archaeologist or historian has supported their existence." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephite

In other words... The whole Mormon bag, to quote our chaplain (and not in its entirety), are "Smithite fictional characters."

 

[mmksparbud]

I understand how some people can take comfort in the existent of early Bible manuscripts.

(The below is my personal thoughts, respecting that others may feel differently)--
For me, early Bible manuscripts are not a source of comfort at all- not discomfort either, I'm just rather neutral about it. My reasons are--
1) The existence of manuscripts does not prove truth
2) I could go and study Greek or Hebrew or other languages. But even if I would speak the words fluently, I would not be in the culture, so I would never truly understand the language. And yes, there are archeologists pointing whom guess about culture, but the best guesses in the world are not me being there in that time and place. Frankly, even if I got in a time-machine to go there, I still won't completely understand.
3) Frankly, I don't think learning Greek is the most efficient and direct way of learning about God. When something is troubling I'd rather simply ask Him in faith.

Yes, I understand we do have to pray fervently and be in communion with God spiritually---However, He has us searching, and studying and learning the scriptures. It is how Christ answered--It is Written---He knew the scriptures. He taught from them in the synagogue--He taught them to the Priests from the age of 12. It is they that speak of Him. It is through them that we find His truths. It is them that keep us within those truths. Going by feeling can be deceptive. The lies are hidden within truths and we are to be careful or we will be led astray as there are other spirits that come in and fight to lead us in the wrong direction. If you have no path to follow, you can end up going nowhere, and even lost. It takes faith, it also takes searching, and the scriptures is how God chooses to guide His people. Even though God gave the Israelites a column of fire and a cloud, a sanctuary and the Urim and Thummim, they still had things written down, to learn them and keep them in mind--the visual to reinforce the spiritual. And they still would end up going back to idol worship and be led astray! You have to guard your boundaries, or they get broken down. No one can rely on having the "warm fuzzies" as their basis for truth---as I keep saying--you can get them from a bowl of warm oatmeal.
Knowing the language and culture of the people of the bible goes a very long way towards putting everything together. It takes time, work--God is not too fond of lazy, complacency. No one has to have a PHD to be saved. As God leads is how one should go. Some are more inclined towards research and we can learn from them. Not all of us have the time, finances and opportunity to get that deep into things and we should take advantage of the gifts that have been given to others. And they have to stand the test of being within the scriptures also. It takes everything and everyone working together to even begin to make sense of a little bit of God.

Pro_3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Mat_7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Act_17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
1Th_4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


Just be careful, as there is also this:

Ecc_12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Balance!!

 

[rockytopva]

And to think that my salvation is dependent on the word coming down from Mormon, Moroni, Nephites, Lamanites, and Jaredites.... People that were never proven to have existed... With no known archaeology or manuscripts, other than from the one golden book found in New York, which only a few have been recorded to have seen... And that revealed by an angel with no biblical meaning...

Is just plain ridiculous!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think the LDS has a fine structure to it and its members are very much Christian in character. The problem is the story of Mormon, Moroni, Nephites, Lamanites, Jaredites... And the whole fantastical bag. And to quote the Wiki once again...

"Some Mormon scholars claim that the forebears of the Nephites settled somewhere in present-day Central America after departing Jerusalem. However, both the Smithsonian Institution and the National Geographic Society have issued statements that they have seen no evidence to support these claims in the Book of Mormon and no non-Mormon archaeologist or historian has supported their existence." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephite

In other words... The whole Mormon bag, to quote our chaplain (and not in its entirety), are "Smithite fictional characters."

Did you forget there is a female God, heavenly mother married to the Father. She is given diety but Christ had to earn Godhead by coming to earth.

Add marriage in heaven and a bunch of spirit babies. All in the same bucket with Satan and Jesus being brothers who ALL decided together how the world would be. Yes. You heard that right. Gods enemy confounded and decided on all creation with his brother Jesus not even being God. God let it all happen to all the spirit babies, which includes Christ.

Adding a female God. As blasphemous as the Israelites worshipping a golden calf. Look where that got them? EVERY Israelite of that generation who worshipped it wandered the desert with Moses for 40 years so NONE who worshipped that other God ever saw the promised land. God cursed the entire generation.

Maybe others need to walk the same path. Treating God like Joe Lump-Lump. His Word and His Son with such disdain.

Don't
Expect any glorifying of His Name here. No praise, worship or respect for My Lord.

Remember what Jesus said to the Phariaees in Matthew? I'll list it for our Mormon friends. So they can see how Jesus dealt with those who said they were His, yet acted totally opposite.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Matthew 23

Go read what it says about the Pharisees who Jesus called hypocrites and said the blood would be on their hands if all He sent to them. The apostles that would die.

It's a good read.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Did you forget there is a female God, heavenly mother married to the Father. She is given diety but Christ had to earn Godhead by coming to earth.

Add marriage in heaven and a bunch of spirit babies. All in the same bucket with Satan and Jesus being brothers who ALL decided together how the world would be. Yes. You heard that right. Gods enemy confounded and decided on all creation with his brother Jesus not even being God. God let it all happen to all the spirit babies, which includes Christ.

Adding a female God. As blasphemous as the Israelites worshipping a golden calf. Look where that got them? EVERY Israelite of that generation who worshipped it wandered the desert with Moses for 40 years so NONE who worshipped that other God ever saw the promised land. God cursed the entire generation.

Maybe others need to walk the same path. Treating God like Joe Lump-Lump. His Word and His Son with such disdain.

Don't
Expect any glorifying of His Name here. No praise, worship or respect for My Lord.

Remember what Jesus said to the Phariaees in Matthew? I'll list it for our Mormon friends. So they can see how Jesus dealt with those who said they were His, yet acted totally opposite.

TBL, I'm mean no disrespect here, but you are very incorrect on your statements of Mormon beliefs. If I spent the time to correct them, would you be willing to listen?

And to think that my salvation is dependent on the word coming down from Mormon, Moroni, Nephites, Lamanites, and Jaredites.... People that were never proven to have existed... With no known archaeology or manuscripts, other than from the one golden book found in New York, which only a few have been recorded to have seen... And that revealed by an angel with no biblical meaning...

Is just plain ridiculous!

Rockytopva, same question to you.

 

[Ironhold]

However, both the Smithsonian Institution

This article is greatly out of date, then, as the Smithsonian was forced to retract their statement for being both 100% unprofessional and 100% behind the curve concerning the then-current archaeological findings - http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/smithsonian.shtml .

In fact, the Smithsonian statement that people kept raising as a bloody flag hasn't been issued since 1998.

 

[ToBeLoved]

TBL, I'm mean no disrespect here, but you are very incorrect on your statements of Mormon beliefs. If I spent the time to correct them, would you be willing to listen?



Rockytopva, same question to you.

I've heard all about heavenly mother. Let's not go there Jane. You break the BIGGEST commandment, another God. Let's not put lipstick on something to make it pallatable.

You should go back and see the punishment that Israel received from God for this same thing. God tells us "I am the Lord your God and am a jealous God, though will have NO OTHER GOD's ".

I am not listening to your word play anymore. I've listened. I've asked questions. I know what Mormons believe.

 

[ToBeLoved]

This article is greatly out of date, then, as the Smithsonian was forced to retract their statement for being both 100% unprofessional and 100% behind the curve concerning the then-current archaeological findings - http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/smithsonian.shtml .

In fact, the Smithsonian statement that people kept raising as a bloody flag hasn't been issued since 1998.

Wow! A whole 15 years.

 

[Ironhold]

Wow! A whole 15 years.

...which should tell you how badly out of date most anti-Mormons are when it comes to issues relating to the church.

 

[ToBeLoved]

TBL, you seem to put a lot of stock in the Dead Sea Scrolls. While the Dead Sea Scrolls are a fantastic archeological find, I really don't see them proving Christianity is true because:
1) The Dead Sea Scrolls are jewish scripture, not Christian
2) They contain non-Biblical documents as well, and sections of the Apocrypha (i.e. books included in some Bibles but removed from most protestant Bibles).
3) The simple existence of a religious document does not in any way prove it's truthfulness. For example, the Rigveda of Hinduism has existed since 1700-1100 BC, but in no way proves the truthfulness of Hinduism. Similarly, the religious writings on the Egyptian pyramids no way proves their truthfulness.

You should know as a Christian that the BIble consists of the Old Testament which are the Jewish writings. These scriptures are the same. I'm glad I could show you that truth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

...which should tell you how badly out of date most anti-Mormons are when it comes to issues relating to the church.

We are not anti-Mormon. It's really not all that important to us. We only seek that you should find and know the Word of God in context and what Christ offers you and who He is.

It's really about Jesus Christ, not you or your religion.

Why do you hold such a big chip on your shoulder and think that so many people want to slight you? Do you not know that Christ is Lord and He will make all wrongs, right? Trust in Him.

It's about Him. Not you or Mormonism. It's bigger than you or JS or Moroni.

It's about God.

Think about it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

...which should tell you how badly out of date most anti-Mormons are when it comes to issues relating to the church.

I will pray that the Lord gives you enough peace that you do not feel the world is against you. And I will pray that God gives you enough faith that you can stand tall and remove the big chip that is resting on your shoulder.

Jesus tells us to put our cares upon Him. We do not live and walk in faith alone. Faith is knowing God has your back and is in control. Look into the 'rest' of God. It allows us to rest in Him. In knowing that He cares for us and that we can put our worries and cares upon Him. His strength is available to us. Our cares and worries are light for Him to carry, but can be very heavy for us to carry.

 

[BigDaddy4]

...which should tell you how badly out of date most anti-Mormons are when it comes to issues relating to the church.

Inflamatory post. Please retract or change your reference to "anti".

 

[Ironhold]

Why do you hold such a big chip on your shoulder and think that so many people want to slight you?

Ever have a self-professed "Good Christian" tell you that they want to hurt or even kill you simply because of your religious beliefs?

Ever see an ordained minister tell a man to use "any means necessary" to keep his wife from investigating the LDS faith?

Ever have someone back away slowly from you?

Ever have to keep a relationship secret because your non-member significant other is afraid of how their parents will react when they find out that they're dating you?

Yeah.

Been there, done that.

 

[Ironhold]

Inflamatory post. Please retract or change your reference to "anti".

I didn't specifically reference anyone by name, did I?

Rather, I was referring generically to people who peddle negative information about the church.

These people are often so busy trying to bash the church that they generally don't let the facts get in the way.