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LDS Is Moroni a fallen demonic angel?

ToBeLoved

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I am very aware of the flaws of the translation process, and the extreme difficulty (if not impossibility at points) of perfectly conveying the same idea directly.
I am surprised then that not having the original text of the BOM doesn't bother you.

I do like having the original languages of the Bible to go back to. Even just to see where that same foreign word was used elsewhere and how many times. My pastor got me into that. It's interesting.

Reading how the same word was used in other verses. Adds some meaning and is more fun than it at first seems.
 
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Jane_Doe

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I do like having the original languages of the Bible to go back to. Even just to see where that same foreign word was used elsewhere and how many times. My pastor got me into that. It's interesting.

Reading how the same word was used in other verses. Adds some meaning and is more fun than it at first seems.

I understand how some people can take comfort in the existent of early Bible manuscripts.

(The below is my personal thoughts, respecting that others may feel differently)--
For me, early Bible manuscripts are not a source of comfort at all- not discomfort either, I'm just rather neutral about it. My reasons are--
1) The existence of manuscripts does not prove truth
2) I could go and study Greek or Hebrew or other languages. But even if I would speak the words fluently, I would not be in the culture, so I would never truly understand the language. And yes, there are archeologists pointing whom guess about culture, but the best guesses in the world are not me being there in that time and place. Frankly, even if I got in a time-machine to go there, I still won't completely understand.
3) Frankly, I don't think learning Greek is the most efficient and direct way of learning about God. When something is troubling I'd rather simply ask Him in faith.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I understand how some people can take comfort in the existent of early Bible manuscripts.

(The below is my personal thoughts, respecting that others may feel differently)--
For me, early Bible manuscripts are not a source of comfort at all- not discomfort either, I'm just rather neutral about it. My reasons are--
1) The existence of manuscripts does not prove truth
2) I could go and study Greek or Hebrew or other languages. But even if I would speak the words fluently, I would not be in the culture, so I would never truly understand the language. And yes, there are archeologists pointing whom guess about culture, but the best guesses in the world are not me being there in that time and place. Frankly, even if I got in a time-machine to go there, I still won't completely understand.
3) Frankly, I don't think learning Greek is the most efficient and direct way of learning about God. When something is troubling I'd rather simply ask Him in faith.
I don't know Greek or Hebrew, but there are tools that will show you what the verse looks like in the language and how many times it's used and in which books.
 
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Jane_Doe

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I don't know Greek or Hebrew, but there are tools that will show you what the verse looks like in the language and how many times it's used and in which books.

Yes. Like I said, I understand some people find them valuable. I personally just don't think it's the be-all-end-all, for the reason I explained in #102.
 
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fatboys

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I am surprised then that not having the original text of the BOM doesn't bother you.

I do like having the original languages of the Bible to go back to. Even just to see where that same foreign word was used elsewhere and how many times. My pastor got me into that. It's interesting.

Reading how the same word was used in other verses. Adds some meaning and is more fun than it at first seems.
There are no originals
 
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rockytopva

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Visiting these threads have caused me to meditate and to come to conclusions. I believe that Joseph Smith was a charismatic figure and that he wanted to be a leader. I feel much of his stuff is made up. As he was a charismatic figure and had a heart so he also had a following. For me I would have explored into the LDS more if I has thought that there was truth behind the message.

If the LDS founders would have written up the Book of Mormon and called in something else, like the "Word to the Latter Day Saints" I may have bought into it. And instead of inventing some kind of ancient society just write saying these were the words of Joseph Smith I may have bought into that. As far as figures like Mormon and Moroni, if these were angels of God with name such as Raphael and Gabriel, leaving out all the ancient society stuff, it would have been more believable for me.

But to invent a whole society that never was historically in existence is something that I cannot buy into. But merely consider these references from a fantastical man who wanted to be a leader and mother a church into existence.
 
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fatboys

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Visiting these threads have caused me to meditate and to come to conclusions. I believe that Joseph Smith was a charismatic figure and that he wanted to be a leader. I feel much of his stuff is made up. As he was a charismatic figure and had a heart so he also had a following. For me I would have explored into the LDS more if I has thought that there was truth behind the message.

If the LDS founders would have written up the Book of Mormon and called in something else, like the "Word to the Latter Day Saints" I may have bought into it. And instead of inventing some kind of ancient society just write saying these were the words of Joseph Smith I may have bought into that. As far as figures like Mormon and Moroni, if these were angels of God with name such as Raphael and Gabriel, leaving out all the ancient society stuff, it would have been more believable for me.

But to invent a whole society that never was historically in existence is something that I cannot buy into. But merely consider these references from a fantastical man who wanted to be a leader and mother a church into existence.
When Christ restored the truths that had been given to Adam and Eve but were lost during their time in captivity the Jewish leaders said the same thing.
 
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rockytopva

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When Christ restored the truths that had been given to Adam and Eve but were lost during their time in captivity the Jewish leaders said the same thing.

It would be nice to have some archaeology to go behind the Mormon claims.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I understand how some people can take comfort in the existent of early Bible manuscripts.

(The below is my personal thoughts, respecting that others may feel differently)--
For me, early Bible manuscripts are not a source of comfort at all- not discomfort either, I'm just rather neutral about it. My reasons are--
1) The existence of manuscripts does not prove truth
2) I could go and study Greek or Hebrew or other languages. But even if I would speak the words fluently, I would not be in the culture, so I would never truly understand the language. And yes, there are archeologists pointing whom guess about culture, but the best guesses in the world are not me being there in that time and place. Frankly, even if I got in a time-machine to go there, I still won't completely understand.
3) Frankly, I don't think learning Greek is the most efficient and direct way of learning about God. When something is troubling I'd rather simply ask Him in faith.
I think what the early Bible manuscripts show and what the Dead Sea Scrolls show is that we have almost an exact duplicate of 2,000 - 3,000 year old texts. Texts that much care was taken when making copies of by the scribes.

The Bible itself is a book that shows culture in what the time was like if you read it and understand it. The thing about the Bible is that there are a lot of cross references. Most people think the Bible reads like a story or novel, but that is not the way it is written, nor the way it should be read. Verses and context comes to life when you are able to build a complete story through cross-references and really understand the times and the way the people were, and I disagree because I think that a lot can be learned by the culture. We have Bible dictionaries, encyclopedia's, we know the timelines of when things occured, politics of the era, who was in power and what other cultures were like in those times.

In my opinion, the larger picture is all there for the one who wants to put it in the larger, proper perspective. That is one of the things I find fascinating with the Bible is learning little things about the culture.

I'll give you an example. In those days the males stayed with the family (in Jesus time) and it was the eldest male's job to take care of his mother if her husband had passed. So before Jesus died he told one of His disciples, 'this is your mother, mother this is your son'. What He was in essence doing is because He knew He would be crucified and die, He was ensuring care for His mother after His death. Another interesting thing of that time is that the sons stayed with the family, for instance if a son married, the woman always left her family to move to the place of her husband;s family and that was how it was done. One of the major reasons is because land was one of the only things that was inherited because the people (Hebrews) were heavily taxed by Rome and needed the land to survive and needed the land to stay in the family and not be divided or sold because the entire future generations depended on it. It was not easy to buy land again, so it was cherished as the inheritance to the males in the family.

So, it does add to the BIble for me to know and learn these cultural aspects because then things are put in context.

Just my opinion but those are some examples of why I enjoy that aspect.
 
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ToBeLoved

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When Christ restored the truths that had been given to Adam and Eve but were lost during their time in captivity the Jewish leaders said the same thing.
Can you be more specific? What truth are you referirng to with Adam & Eve and what was lost and when were they held in captivity?
 
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ToBeLoved

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There are no originals
By original, I mean the original language text and such text as the books of the BIble found wiht the Dead Sea Scrolls which have been carbon-dated for authenticity of how old they are. We can also see that the Bible we have used all these years is virtually a duplicate after 2,000 years.

I see I have to be much, much more specific.
 
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rockytopva

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Moroni is a Smithite fictional character.

I should have called this thread, "Is Moroni a fictional character?" Rather than what I did. Demonic spirit may be a little harsh. Just trying to get into these folks head a little.
 
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rockytopva

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There are
Well....

images.jpg
 
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mmksparbud

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You guys can be so maddeningly vague----:argh:-----


You have some of the history correct but most is wrong

FYI: this post is a theft-- stealing of someone else's words without giving them credit. And if you're going to steal, you really should from somewhere more reputable than wikipedia.

There have been many thing discovered since hat time which support the Book of Mormon. You need to update your anti Mormon info

When Christ restored the truths that had been given to Adam and Eve but were lost during their time in captivity the Jewish leaders said the same thing.

There are


If you got something to say--"SAY IT"---And lookey there, who is the vaguest?--fatboys!
Come on---if you accuse someone of plagiarism, quote the passages and prove it--if a poster states something in your history wrongly--then state the passages and correct them--you got discoveries in archaeology that prove BOM---then state it and back up with sources---and stating vague stuff like the captivity of Adam and Eve needs to have some sort of explanation for there is no such thing mentioned in the bible---
Get real folks---you don't like it if we do it.
 
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Jane_Doe

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ToBeLoved

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I should have called this thread, "Is Moroni a fictional character?" Rather than what I did. Demonic spirit may be a little harsh. Just trying to get into these folks head a little.
I'm not so sure how far off it is given what we know as fact at this point.

JS said it is an angel.

So, if it is an angel than there are only two choices; God's angels who remained in obedience OR the fallen angels.

The Word of God never mentions an angel named Moroni.

No angel of God would lead a person to a book that contradicts the Bible.

So I'm not sure it is that far off by anyone's thinking. It is historically what it is.
 
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