Does Science Agree With the Bible?

[dad]

I don't ever expect evidence from you, so I won't start now.

You didn't know what to look for as usual..or what not to look for.

 

[Edmond Smith]

If you treat either the Garden of Eden story or the Noah's Ark story as history then you are wrong on both. There is no doubt about it.

okay, show me? what information do you have to show that they aren't true?

 

[HitchSlap]

You didn't know what to look for as usual..or what not to look for.

What can I say, sometimes those two things split and merge.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You believe evolution is a fact, you tell others that its a fact because of this belief....therefore it is your in your belief system. I can't speak of anything else you believe because you haven't discussed those things. But you have on evolution.

Wrong. I know that evolution is a fact. Knowledge is demonstrable, belief is not. You need to learn the difference between belief, such as your belief in your God, and knowledge.

Okay, show me where it is a lie. And show me where it's wrong.

The fact that ice floats proves that all by itself.

If you have ever lied, or stolen anything, or as Jesus put it,
"Thou knowest of the times of old, "Thou shalt not commit adultery, but I say if a man look at a woman he has commited adultery in his heart already." So, if you've just looked at somebody in a lustful manner, you've commited adultery. God knows the intentions of you heart as much as you do.
If you've hated someone, your consider a murderer and have no eternal life in you at all

Sorry, but now you are being ridiculous. If you can't keep it real why even discuss this with you?

Sin is the transgression of the Law. If you break one, you break them all.

What "Law". Do you mean speeding? I know that I have sped, does that mean that I have committed adultery? Dang, I thought it was going to be a lot more fun that that.

And unless you've lived a perfect life, It would be correct to say, that you have sinned.

In that case I have sinned. But you do realize that an infinite punishment for a very minor crime is immoral. Are you claiming that your God is immoral?

I would have to agree with you on that. And you may not lie about your beliefs, but you've lied somewhere before.

Not my beliefs in this case. My knowledge, but yes, I am sure that I have lied elsewhere.

My valid reasons is the experiences I have had of God. Knowing that His Word is true and that it stands on it's own.
What if God is real? That you will meet him. What will be your excuse for not believing in Him?

Sorry, but that is not a valid reason. At best that applies only to you and is not a reason for others to believe. Even the Bible tells you that you are supposed to have more than that.

Are you so sure that what you believe in Evolution is true. why? when all the speculation, not sures and the we think so's.
How do you know what I believe in is false?

Because there is very little speculation involved. There may be speculation about the details, but not about the theory itself.

For example, you may life in LA and a friend of yours in New York city. He tells you that he is driving to your house, he shows up several days later in the car that you know the he owns. It is not unreasonable to conclude that he drove to your house. The exact route may involve some speculation but there is no reason to doubt the basic story.

 

[dad]

What can I say, sometimes those two things split and merge.

Get it together.

 

[Subduction Zone]

okay, show me? what information do you have to show that they aren't true?

Let's start with the Noah's Ark story. Which version do you believe? There are many variations on how people interpret the Bible so please don't say "the one in the Bible". That could be as small as a local flood that was only symbolic in nature and did not threaten man or any other species. So I need to know exactly which version of the flood story that you believe in.

 

[Edmond Smith]

Wrong. I know that evolution is a fact. Knowledge is demonstrable, belief is not. You need to learn the difference between belief, such as your belief in your God, and knowledge.

Evolution isn't demonstrable. Show me just one Instance of one kind changing to another kind.
I agree in microevolution...where one bacteria changes and becomes another type of bacteria and how there are different types of dogs, cats and such.
But man from ape? show me the evidence of this, the fossil record of it, the observable demonstrative evidence for this.

There is knowledge of God. Thru His creation, he made it.

The fact that ice floats proves that all by itself.

Uh, Ice does float. your point?
scripture and verse please?

scripture and verse please?

Sorry, but now you are being ridiculous. If you can't keep it real why even discuss this with you?

Nope, not ridiculous.
If you lie, your a liar
If you have stolen, you are a thief
If you have used God's name in vain, you've commited blaspheme. And God said he would not anyone get away with that.
These are just 4 of the 10 commandments. If you break one, you break them all.

Can't get any more real than that.

What "Law". Do you mean speeding? I know that I have sped, does that mean that I have committed adultery? Dang, I thought it was going to be a lot more fun that that.

Sorry ignorance doesn't suit you. Please refrain from it.

In that case I have sinned. But you do realize that an infinite punishment for a very minor crime is immoral. Are you claiming that your God is immoral?

No.
You just don't understand who God is. God is not only a loving God, He's also a righteous and judge.
When you sin, you sin directly against him.

So, if I lie to my brother....he can't do anything to me really.
If I tell the same lie to my mother...she could punish me by taking something away.
If I tell the same lie to the police...I could get arrested.
If I tell the same lie to the judge...he could punish me more severly and put me away for awhile.
But If I lie to God,...which the whole time i'm doing anyway...He punishes eternally, because He is eternal.

The level of punishment is dictated by who you lie to.
So, God isn't immoral. He's a just and righteous God.



Not my beliefs in this case. My knowledge, but yes, I am sure that I have lied elsewhere.

Sorry, but that is not a valid reason. At best that applies only to you and is not a reason for others to believe. Even the Bible tells you that you are supposed to have more than that.

You asked what my reason for believing is. And that is why I believe, because I've experience Him in my life.
What others believe is what God has done for them and what the Word says, it's thru their experiences with God that supports and makes their believe stronger.
The Bible tells us to have faith and believe. I have both.

Because there is very little speculation involved. There may be speculation about the details, but not about the theory itself.

Speculation, yeah, there's a bunch.
Well, you want to put your faith into something that has that much speculation...that's your choice. Especially into something that is a theory from the start.

I'm sure if your doctor told you he was just speculating about a diagnosis for you...You'd get a second or maybe even a third doctor to check you out until you got the facts straight.

For example, you may life in LA and a friend of yours in New York city. He tells you that he is driving to your house, he shows up several days later in the car that you know the he owns. It is not unreasonable to conclude that he drove to your house. The exact route may involve some speculation but there is no reason to doubt the basic story.

Yeah, If I guessed how he drove. But if he told me his route and showed it to me on a map and discussed the things he saw.
then there is no more speculation. It's a fact.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Evolution isn't demonstrable. Show me just one Instance of one kind changing to another kind.

There is no "change of kind" in evolution. So all you have done is to show your ignorance. Let's take you for example. You share a common ancestor with other apes, and you are still an ape. You share a common ancestor with other mammals, you are still a mammal. You share a common ancestor with other vertebrates. You are still a vertebrate. Creationists cannot even define "kind".

I agree in microevolution...where one bacteria changes and becomes another type of bacteria and how there are different types of dogs, cats and such.

Whoa! You do not seem to realize that the difference between one bacteria and another can be greater than the difference between a cat and a dog. With such ignorance how can you argue against evolution?

But man from ape? show me the evidence of this, the fossil record of it, the observable demonstrative evidence for this.

The nested hierarchy of your DNA and a chimpanzees DNA shows this. The fact that you share ERV's with other apes makes it a slam dunk.

There is knowledge of God. Thru His creation, he made it.

You mean there is no evidence of God, that makes your later claim dubious to say the least.

Uh, Ice does float. your point?
scripture and verse please?

What do you mean? Ice floats, it is a simple fact. That alone debunks the idea of a worldwide flood.

Nope, not ridiculous.
If you lie, your a liar
If you have stolen, you are a thief
If you have used God's name in vain, you've commited blaspheme. And God said he would not anyone get away with that.
These are just 4 of the 10 commandments. If you break one, you break them all.

Can't get any more real than that.

Yes, but that still leaves you with the moral problem of your God's punishment.

Sorry ignorance doesn't suit you. Please refrain from it.

You were not clear in your nonsense. There was no ignorance there. That is a creationist sin.

No.
You just don't understand who God is. God is not only a loving God, He's also a righteous and judge.
When you sin, you sin directly against him.

So, if I lie to my brother....he can't do anything to me really.
If I tell the same lie to my mother...she could punish me by taking something away.
If I tell the same lie to the police...I could get arrested.
If I tell the same lie to the judge...he could punish me more severly and put me away for awhile.
But If I lie to God,...which the whole time i'm doing anyway...He punishes eternally, because He is eternal.

The level of punishment is dictated by who you lie to.
So, God isn't immoral. He's a just and righteous God.

Wrong. You cannot be "just and righteous" if you give an infinite punishment for a limited crime. It does not matter if I understand God or not. I understand justice and righteousness. It is not my fault if your description of your version of God is one that is neither just nor righteous.

Not my beliefs in this case. My knowledge, but yes, I am sure that I have lied elsewhere.

Sorry, but this is not your knowledge since you can't demonstrate it. You are left with beliefs.

You asked what my reason for believing is. And that is why I believe, because I've experience Him in my life.
What others believe is what God has done for them and what the Word says, it's thru their experiences with God that supports and makes their believe stronger.
The Bible tells us to have faith and believe. I have both.

That is the same reason a Hindu or a Muslim will give you. That means that in essence your beliefs are no different from theirs. And faith is a flaw, it is not an asset.

Speculation, yeah, there's a bunch.
Well, you want to put your faith into something that has that much speculation...that's your choice. Especially into something that is a theory from the start.

I'm sure if your doctor told you he was just speculating about a diagnosis for you...You'd get a second or maybe even a third doctor to check you out until you got the facts straight.

No, you simply won't let yourself understand. Usually when creationists claim "speculation" it is only science that the creationist does not understand. And no, there is no choice in rational belief. If you think that choice is part of belief then you really don't believe. You merely hope.

You need to understand the difference between speculation and logical conclusion.

Yeah, If I guessed how he drove. But if he told me his route and showed it to me on a map and discussed the things he saw.
then there is no more speculation. It's a fact.

You are still trusting him. Now what if he told you the route that he took and you found that some of those roads were not in existence, or that they were torn down years ago? That is what you have with the Genesis account. Stories that when you investigate them could not have happened as told.

Once again you need to learn the difference between speculation and logical conclusion.[/QUOTE]

 

[AV1611VET]

Let's start with the Noah's Ark story. Which version do you believe? There are many variations on how people interpret the Bible so please don't say "the one in the Bible". That could be as small as a local flood that was only symbolic in nature and did not threaten man or any other species. So I need to know exactly which version of the flood story that you believe in.

Noah's.

He was there.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I don't know of any physical constant that is different now, than it has been for billions of years. Which one do you think has changed?

"The premise of the fine-tuned Universe assertion is that a small change in several of the dimensionless fundamental physical constants would make the Universe radically different. As Stephen Hawking has noted, "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe

I do not go along with Hawking, I was just saying some people believe that there has been change. There are two theories one proposed by Gould who is not alive anymore to defend his theory. He says if you go back to the beginning and started all over again then everything would turn out different then what we now have. Then you have the Evo Devo school that believes as you do in the consistence and that you would always end up with the same results as what we have today.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Whoa! You do not seem to realize that the difference between one bacteria and another can be greater than the difference between a cat and a dog. With such ignorance how can you argue against evolution?

Really there is more difference in the DNA of different bacteria then there is difference in the DNA of a cat and a dog?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Where's the paradox? What natural laws does evolution change?

It is interesting that evolutionary change is regulated by physical laws that do not change. God's laws are consistent, it is man's laws that are in a constant state of change.

 

[Kylie]

You had questions, I had answers. You can choose not to believe any of it...but because we are mere characters [guests] in a story that is not ours unless we get into character, then it would be better to listen, to be a part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Stop complaining. Our only chance at winning any issues we have, is to get along, to hear Him out, to come to an understanding. Clearly, you are not there yet, nor will you be, if you do not change your attitude. You are making matters worse by preoccupying yourself with things you do not understand and will not listen to.

I did not believe your answers because they required me to ignore my own common sense. I will change my position based on EVIDENCE, and you have not provided me with any.

 

[Kylie]

Because the whole idea is complex to you and foreign. Can you tell me what points do not make sense to you?

Non sequiturs often are when you try to justify them.

It doesn't work that way. You cannot have member privileges without being a member (so to speak). You are either in or out. You hold the invitation, what will you do with it?

Woah, hold on.

You CLAIM I hold the invitation, yet I have no proof of this. I have only your word and an old book to tell me of this. If God wants me to know for a fact, surely he can do so. Your word is not enough to convince me. You'll need to provide EVIDENCE.

Until then, all you have is a claim that if I choose to believe, I'll justify that belief. No surprises there, because people tend to go out of their way to justify the beliefs that are comfortable. All you are doing me is telling me that if I convince myself, I'll go out of my way to justify it. But that won't make it true.

 

[Kylie]

Okay I won't.

I fear you are though...

A blind man cannot see, hear, smell, touch or taste the stars.

So? It is still possible to get objective data about them.

Does this mean the stars are not real?

No, it means that the blind man lacks certain methods to examine them. An inability to examine something does not mean that those things do not exist.

But we cannot conclude that something exists if it is impossible for it to be detected at all. After all, a blind man can still say, "If stars exist, then they should be emitting detectable amounts of light. I may not be able to see them, but I can create a device which can detect those light rays." And he can then build such a device and see if it works.

That's the great thing about science - we can detect things indirectly. Can't do that with religion.

This simply demonstrates that there is more than one way to experience reality.

Our experience of reality is subjective. Reality itself is objective. There is only one reality, regardless of how many interpretations of that reality there are.

The blind man only has four working senses and you only have five.

I have more than five.

Perhaps five is not enough to experience God, just as four is not enough for the blind man to experience the stars.

As I said earlier, a blind man can build something to compensate. If something can be detected, then we can build something to detect it, or at least describe what we would expect to detect if we could detect it. But we can't do that with God, can we?

Christianity exists because of testable and verifiable experiences. We Christians preformed the tests and we all experience the same results. This is why we are Christians and not atheists.

Then why are there so many different sects of Christianity? If Christianity is objectively true, where are there so many different versions of it? I find your claim that all Christians get the same results to be deeply flawed and not representative of reality.

You are unable to verify those experiences either because you do not know how to perform the tests or because you do not understand the results.

Not even Christians can verify those experiences!

This would explain why atheism is a minority position, it's because you have a myopic view of reality.

Are you really trying the argument from popularity? "Most people aren't atheists, therefore atheism is wrong"? Well, let me tell you that most people in the world aren't Christians either. What does that tell you?

 

[TLK Valentine]

It is interesting that evolutionary change is regulated by physical laws that do not change. God's laws are consistent, it is man's laws that are in a constant state of change.

Only thing changing here is your.story...

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian asks:
I don't know of any physical constant that is different now, than it has been for billions of years. Which one do you think has changed?

joshua can't think of one:

I do not go along with Hawking, I was just saying some people believe that there has been change.

And no evidence whatever. So, that's off the table.

There are two theories one proposed by Gould who is not alive anymore to defend his theory. He says if you go back to the beginning and started all over again then everything would turn out different then what we now have.

He says that if we went back to the beginning, the same rules would apply, but the outcome would very likely be different. It seems that you're confusing natural selection with fundamental physical constants.

Then you have the Evo Devo school that believes as you do in the consistence

You might want to read up on that. Evolutionary development has nothing to about changing physical constants.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Noah's.

He was there.

And Spiderman lives in New York City.

Sorry, but we can show that he was not.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Really there is more difference in the DNA of different bacteria then there is difference in the DNA of a cat and a dog?

Yep. In fact all of bacteria is a larger group than all of plant and animal species added together.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"The premise of the fine-tuned Universe assertion is that a small change in several of the dimensionless fundamental physical constants would make the Universe radically different. As Stephen Hawking has noted, "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe

I do not go along with Hawking, I was just saying some people believe that there has been change. There are two theories one proposed by Gould who is not alive anymore to defend his theory. He says if you go back to the beginning and started all over again then everything would turn out different then what we now have. Then you have the Evo Devo school that believes as you do in the consistence and that you would always end up with the same results as what we have today.

And you do not understand what the finely tuned universe argument says. It does not say that there was a change in those constants, it says that IF there was a difference than life as we knot it would not exist. Please note that it does not say that life would not exist.