Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[iamlamad]

Brother Riberra,

In 6390 plus posts we have seen how John Nelson Darby's doctrine does not line up with scripture in multiple ways.

Some of us have been accused of lying, hating the descendants of Jacob, working for Satan, etc.

We have arrived back at the starting point of modern Dispensational Theology.

Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together for a number of years within the Plymouth Brethren.
After John Darby adopted the "Secret Rapture" doctrine of the Irvingites and divided scripture into that for the Church and that for the Jews, Newton refused to accept Darby's new doctrine.

Darby then made a personal attack on Newton.
It is one of the most revealing aspects of Darby's doctrine.
The same thing continues to occur during our time.

I have talked to a number of Pastors who have been through the same thing.

It happened to a Baptist pastor in our part of North Carolina.

We will never be able to change the minds of some people.

However, you have made a difference by speaking the truth-in-love, which has been seen by many visiting this forum.

Thank you for patience.
....................................................
Pastor Joel Botelho is one of those rare pastors who was willing to abandon what he had been taught in seminary, when he could not get it to align with scripture. When I spoke to him on the phone, he told me how some of his fellow pastors labeled him as a "heretic" for letting go of John Darby's doctrine.
It is a sad commentary on the modern Church.

Click on the YouTube icon at the bottom right part of the black box to watch the video on YouTube.

Darby and many others held that the church of God would escape the days of the end [i.e., the days of the great tribulation]; Newton, Tregelles, George Müller, and others believed the church will go through that period; R. C. Chapman, Groves, and Lady Powerscourt thought that not all believers will share in the first resurrection and the millennial kingdom….​

It seems this argument has been ongoing for centuries! We will just have to wait for the pretrib rapture before some will believe it is truth.

 

[iamlamad]

Thanks Riberra and Baberean, the fact is those who believe false teachings have ben locked into them, Isaiah 29:9-12 and only when they find themselves 'left behind', will they at last, understand. Isaiah 29:24
But I pray that our efforts have had some effect, especially on those 'lurkers' who are truly seeking the truth.
Here is another good article by James Lloyd:
Although most Christians are virtually illiterate in terms of accurately understanding New Testament doctrine, as the truth is buried within the historic avalanche of theological development, one of the shortest parables of JESUS CHRIST wonderfully summarizes the entire subject in the most concise language imaginable: Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. Luke 13:20, 21

Webster's Dictionary uses the phrase "weigh out," or measure, in its definition of the root word dispense; and common usage tells us the Dispensational system is related to how the LORD dispenses, or measures out salvation. What is truly amazing is how the Dispensational system (known to most as the Rapture theology) specifically designates three stages (or so called “Dispensations”) of salvation within this unbiblical system.

Sadly, most of those ensnared in the belief system which began in a small European Cult are completely ignorant of systemic theologies which preceded Rapturism, as most of them have been thoroughly indoctrinated to believe there is no other viable view of prophecy. To this end, most "Christians" caught in the Rapture Cult refuse to even consider or examine the compelling historical record which conclusively documents the origin, development, and rise of the Spiritual deception that is the pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine. Obviously, Jesus will hold such "believers" accountable for refusing to respond to His own warning concerning just how the Kingdom of God would be leavened (see Matthew 22:11-13 for their fate).
Dispensational teachers tell us the first “Dispensation” was Israel, as seen in the Old Testament and the law. The second alleged "Dispensation" was what is usually called the "Church" age, and the third (and final) of the three is when the "Church" has supposedly been Raptured, and the tribulation then is said to center on Jewish salvation, in the final “Dispensation” of 7 years. Thus, there are three stages of Spiritual "development" in this pattern.

What usually confuses rapture believers confronted with the truth is their Dialectical reasoning process, rather than an absolute commitment to the truth of the Gospel. In other words, it doesn't seem possible the Kingdom of God on earth could be diminished, so they evaluate the concept, and reject it based on their conditioning. However, it is clear that leaven is indeed a figure of a progressive deception which, if not aggressively refuted, will eventually grow until it "leaveneth the whole lump." The New Testament flatly tells us that leaven is a picture of false doctrine which we are to scrupulously avoid: They understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Matthew 16:12 When Paul repeated Christ's warning, he noted how the "lump" of Israel was sanctified as holy before their "branches were broken off" Romans 11:15-17

Further, the most angry denunciations Jesus ever made were against the religious practices of the Pharisees and the Sadducees -- which He repeatedly identified as the doctrine propagated by the Jewish leaders. Thus, we see the parable says there are three stages of sinful doctrine in the Antichrist dominated end of the world. The evil doctrine is associated with the “lump” of Israel, and the doctrine put forth by Jews, and it will ultimately compromise the entire loaf, or lump. Since the common denominator in all three "Dispensations" is the blasphemous lie that true Israelites are chosen by the LORD on a racial basis, rather than Spiritual rebirth in Christ as plainly articulated throughout the New Testament, we conclude the Jewish primacy articulated by the Pharisees, and still seen in the Rapture Cult , is the leaven which corrupts the Kingdom of God.

However, we are of "good cheer" for Christ has overcome the world and its Antichrist religion, as God has promised He will always preserve a Remnant -- and that Remnant is a Spiritual body -- not of the established "Church," as seen in the leavened loaf, but of the only Remnant ever identified in Scripture, the Lord’s true and righteous believers, those who stand firm in their faith during the testing times to come: The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. Zephaniah 3:13 Ref: -- James Lloyd

Almost always wrong! The first dispensation was INNOCENCE.

 

[BABerean2]

The fact is, GOD SAVES ISRAEL.

I know that does not fit your theories, but it will be true anyway.

No. It fits perfectly with the words of the New Testament writers below.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.




Gal_6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
.

 

[iamlamad]

Brother Riberra,

In 6390 plus posts we have seen how John Nelson Darby's doctrine does not line up with scripture in multiple ways.

Some of us have been accused of lying, hating the descendants of Jacob, working for Satan, etc.

We have arrived back at the starting point of modern Dispensational Theology.

Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together for a number of years within the Plymouth Brethren.
After John Darby adopted the "Secret Rapture" doctrine of the Irvingites and divided scripture into that for the Church and that for the Jews, Newton refused to accept Darby's new doctrine.

Darby then made a personal attack on Newton.
It is one of the most revealing aspects of Darby's doctrine.
The same thing continues to occur during our time.

I have talked to a number of Pastors who have been through the same thing.

It happened to a Baptist pastor in our part of North Carolina.

We will never be able to change the minds of some people.

However, you have made a difference by speaking the truth-in-love, which has been seen by many visiting this forum.

Thank you for patience.
....................................................
Pastor Joel Botelho is one of those rare pastors who was willing to abandon what he had been taught in seminary, when he could not get it to align with scripture. When I spoke to him on the phone, he told me how some of his fellow pastors labeled him as a "heretic" for letting go of John Darby's doctrine.
It is a sad commentary on the modern Church.

Click on the YouTube icon at the bottom right part of the black box to watch the video on YouTube.

Darby was not so bad as you make him out to be:


Deity and Virgin Birth of Christ

On the deity of Christ, Darby is no less compromising than he is on the place of Scripture in the believer's life. "The great truth of the divinity of Jesus, that He is God," says Darby, "is written all through scripture with a sunbeam, but written to faith. I cannot hesitate in seeing the Son, the Jehovah of the Old Testament, the First and the Last, Alpha and Omega, and thus it shines all through. But He fills all things, and His manhood, true, proper manhood, as true, proper Godhead, is as precious to me, and makes me know God, and so indeed only as the other, He is 'the true God and eternal life.'"11 If Christ is not God, concludes Darby, then "I do not know Him, have not met Him, nor know what He is."12 As one of the truths connected with the person and work of Christ, Darby cites the "miraculous birth of the Saviour, who was absolutely without sin . . ."13

Substitutionary Atonement

Just as the doctrine of the deity of Christ is written all through the Bible, Darby maintains that the propitiation secured by the sacrificial death of Christ "is a doctrine interwoven with all Scripture, forms one of the bases of Christianity, is the sole ground of remission--and there is none without shedding blood--and that by which Christ has made peace; Col. 1:20."14

Darby is convinced that without the atoning work of Christ, man must bear the guilt of his sin, and remain at a distance from God without knowledge of Him or of His love. But thankfully that is not the case, for as Darby points out, "There is death in substitution--He 'bore our sins in his own body on the tree'--'died for our sins according to the scriptures' . . ."15

Resurrection of Christ

For Darby, "the Person of Christ regarded as risen," is the pivot around which "all the truths found in the word revolve."16 "Many have, perhaps, been able, in looking at the Church's hope in Christ," says Darby, "to see the importance of the doctrine of the resurrection. But the more we search the Scriptures, the more we perceive, in this doctrine, the fundamental truth of the gospel--that truth which gives to redemption its character, and to all other truths their real power." It is the victory of Christ over death which gives the certainty of salvation.17 It is the resurrection, asserts Darby, which "leaves behind, in the tomb, all that could condemn us, and ushers the Lord into that new world of which he is the perfection, the Head, and the glory."18 Consequently, this doctrine characterized apostolic preaching.19
(http://www.according2prophecy.org/darby.html)

 

[n2thelight]

The fact is, GOD SAVES ISRAEL.

I know that does not fit your theories, but it will be true anyway.

Before we go on,who is Israel to you?Who is being referred to in the below verse?

Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

Also who is Jesus talking about?

Matthew 15:24 "But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Were the Jew's lost

I ask because,if you use that verse,be sure of whom the scriptures speak...

Read the "if"qualifiers in the Word of God

 

[n2thelight]

iamlamad what makes you or any other pretribber more important than all other Christians who have endured tribulations?

Understanding the difference between what they went through and what's coming should tell you that there will be no rapture...But just out of curiosity,just what are you all(rapturist) escaping?

 

[keras]

Israel to become the Land of the Free and home of the Brave? Your theory is myth.
Go ahead and go to Israel. It will be devastated...and probably you along with it. The Bride will go to heaven.

You are a sadly deceived dreamer. Do you really think that God has given up on His plan to have a righteous nation living in the holy Land? What's more you have pre-judged yourself as sufficiently worthy to go to heaven as the Bride of Christ.
Brother in Christ, I counsel you to seriously rethink your beliefs and to cease your foolish comments against those who challenge the theories you espouse.

Psalm 69:13-18 At the acceptable time, I will lift up my prayer to You, Lord: in Your great love, answer me with Your salvation. Rescue me, do not let me sink, deliver me from those who hate me. Do not let the depths of the pit engulf me, in Your great compassion; turn toward me. Come near and redeem me and deliver me from my enemies.

Psalm 69:22-28 My enemies preparations become a trap for them, their eyes are veiled, so they cannot see the punishment coming upon them. Pour out Your wrath upon them, let Your burning anger overtake them. Let their towns be deserted, their houses without inhabitants.
For our enemies have persecuted Your people, those who You sent into exile, enemies have multiplied our troubles and gloated over our trials.
Lord: heap double punishment on them, blot them out of the Book of Life. Let them not share in the salvation of the innocent.

Psalm 69:29-31 Now; I am in pain and distress, may Your salvation protect me. I shall praise God’s Name in song and glorify Him with thanksgiving. This will please Him more than a offering of a animal.

Psalm 69:32-36 The poor and humble will understand and be glad. Take heart, you seekers after the Lord, for He listens to you and does not reject His captive people. Let all things praise Him, for the Lord will deliver Zion and rebuild the towns of Judah. His people will settle there and possess the holy Land. The children of those who serve Him will inherit it and those who love Him will live there.

Psalm 70:1-5 Make haste and save me, O God, let our enemies be shamed and confused, may all who desire our ruin be disgraced. May all who think they have the upper hand, be defeated.
But let all who seek the Lord be jubilant and rejoice in their salvation, all those who long for His rescue will shout: All glory to God!!
Now, we are oppressed and poor, Lord come quickly and save us. You are our help and deliverer, Lord do not delay!

Psalm 73:12 & 17-20 The wicked feel secure as they amass wealth and power. But then, I saw what their destiny will be. They are on a slippery slope and they will fall headlong into disastrous ruin. In an instant they are destroyed, completely swept away by Your terrors, You make an end to them. They become as a dream when one awakes, like fantasies of the imagination. Reference: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

 

[BABerean2]

Darby was not so bad as you make him out to be:

I would not use the word "bad".
I would use the same word that Keras used above.
He was "deceived".

Anyone who claims there is a future plan of salvation outside of the New Blood Covenant Grace of Christ is deceived. I continue to be amazed that my fellow Christians cannot see the obvious error of the idea.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

John Nelson Darby brought the two peoples of God doctrine to America, about the time of the Civil War.
This doctrine has spread like a virus through the evangelical Church, especially in Baptist churches.
Most of those sitting in the pews have no idea where their end-time doctrine came from and have heard only one version their whole lives.
It is the version mainly heard on the Christian Television Networks. It is Darby's version.

We now have millions of evangelical Christians who believe that God has a separate plan of salvation for the modern descendants of Jacob. It is not found in God's Word. Therefore, it is a deception.

They also believe that they do not have to worry about global government, because we will be taken out of here before it happens. One of my past preachers gave a sermon on this topic. He has been deceived by Darby's doctrine.

Those who have been shown the true history of the doctrine and have been shown the scriptural errors of the doctrine, but refuse to acknowledge them and continue to promote the doctrine are in the same error...

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A Baptist speaks on the History of Dispensationalism in America
http://founders.org/fj09/the-history-of-dispensationalism-in-america/

.

 

[Bible2+]

keras quoted Lloyd in post 6393:

Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. Luke 13:20, 21

It is often assumed that here the leaven must represent corruption.

Leaven can indeed represent corruption. For Jesus referred to the false doctrine and hypocrisy of the Pharisees and Sadducees, which had corrupted how the Jews understood and practiced their religion, as being like leaven (Matthew 16:12, Luke 12:1b). And Paul referred to malice and wickedness, which can corrupt church congregations, as being like leaven (1 Corinthians 5:8). He also referred to the false, Pharisaical doctrine that believers have to be physically circumcised and keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (cf. Acts 15:1,5), which doctrine can corrupt church congregations, as being like leaven (Galatians 5:4-14).

But the leaven in Matthew 13:33 and Luke 13:20-21 can't represent corruption, for the kingdom of heaven/God isn't like corruption, but is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17). The fact that Leviticus 23:16-17 says the 2 loaves of the feast of Pentecost had to be leavened suggests the leaven in Leviticus 23:16-17, Matthew 13:33, and Luke 13:20-21 could represent the Holy Spirit, who came upon the church during a feast of Pentecost in the 1st century AD (Acts 2). The 2 leavened loaves of Pentecost (Leviticus 23:16-17) could have typified how the Holy Spirit would eventually come upon both Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts 10:45). And in Matthew 13:33 and Luke 13:20-21, the woman could represent the church spreading the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6). The 3 measures of meal through which the Holy Spirit is spread (Matthew 13:33) could represent the (roughly) 3 millennia from the time of the Pentecost in Acts 2 (in the 1st century AD) until the end of the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6).

Also, the 3 measures of meal through which the Holy Spirit is spread (Matthew 13:33) could at the same time represent the 3 main groups which the Jews divided humanity into at the time of Jesus' 1st coming: Israelites, Samaritans (Gentiles who had a quasi-Jewish religion), and Gentiles (Matthew 10:5-6). Israelites were the first to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2), then Samaritans (Acts 8:14-17), then Gentiles (Acts 10:45-46).

keras quoted Lloyd in post 6393:

What is truly amazing is how the Dispensational system (known to most as the Rapture theology) specifically designates three stages (or so called “Dispensations”) of salvation within this unbiblical system.

Dispensationalism seems to be based on the mistaken idea that Ephesians 3:2 refers to a period of time (a so-called age of grace or church age) which doesn't include Israel, and which will end when the future tribulation begins.

But regarding the present age (world) ending, nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

-

Also, dispensationalism is mistaken because all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

keras quoted Lloyd in post 6393:

To this end, most "Christians" caught in the Rapture Cult refuse to even consider or examine the compelling historical record which conclusively documents the origin, development, and rise of the Spiritual deception that is the pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine. Obviously, Jesus will hold such "believers" accountable for refusing to respond to His own warning concerning just how the Kingdom of God would be leavened (see Matthew 22:11-13 for their fate).

Actually, Matthew 22:11-13 doesn't relate to merely a mistaken belief in a pre-tribulation rapture.

Instead, in Matthew 22:11-13 the wedding garment represents the righteousness of believers (Revelation 19:8), which is conditional not only on their continued belief in Jesus himself (Romans 3:22), but also on their continued doing of righteous deeds (1 John 3:7, James 2:24). Some believers will end up suffering the fate of Matthew 22:13 because of unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or unrepentant sinfulness (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

keras quoted Lloyd in post 6393:

The second alleged "Dispensation" was what is usually called the "Church" age . . .

"Alleged" is right. For there is no such thing as the church age, because the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

 

[Fusion77]

The pre-trib rapturists have changed the true meaning of the word Salvation. For them Salvation mean "being raptured to Heaven before the Tribulation". That is the only thing that they want to hear ...that is the only thing who can recomfort them, period !Now that the lie is solidly implented in their mind /like an Hindu Mantra/or a neuronnal programmation -which give them a good feeling - don't even try to explain to them that they have been fooled...they will repeat their mantra endlessly...just to get their feeling good sensation.

I am done with this topic...i give up !

Note: English is not my native language it is possible that the text contain syntax and grammar imperfection!

I want to say, you do a good job, considering English is not your first language!

 

[Psalm3704]

You are a sadly deceived dreamer. Do you really think that God has given up on His plan to have a righteous nation living in the holy Land? What's more you have pre-judged yourself as sufficiently worthy to go to heaven as the Bride of Christ.
Brother in Christ, I counsel you to seriously rethink your beliefs and to cease your foolish comments against those who challenge the theories you espouse.

Psalm 69:13-18 At the acceptable time, I will lift up my prayer to You, Lord: in Your great love, answer me with Your salvation. Rescue me, do not let me sink, deliver me from those who hate me. Do not let the depths of the pit engulf me, in Your great compassion; turn toward me. Come near and redeem me and deliver me from my enemies.

Psalm 69:22-28 My enemies preparations become a trap for them, their eyes are veiled, so they cannot see the punishment coming upon them. Pour out Your wrath upon them, let Your burning anger overtake them. Let their towns be deserted, their houses without inhabitants.
For our enemies have persecuted Your people, those who You sent into exile, enemies have multiplied our troubles and gloated over our trials.
Lord: heap double punishment on them, blot them out of the Book of Life. Let them not share in the salvation of the innocent.

Psalm 69:29-31 Now; I am in pain and distress, may Your salvation protect me. I shall praise God’s Name in song and glorify Him with thanksgiving. This will please Him more than a offering of a animal.

Psalm 69:32-36 The poor and humble will understand and be glad. Take heart, you seekers after the Lord, for He listens to you and does not reject His captive people. Let all things praise Him, for the Lord will deliver Zion and rebuild the towns of Judah. His people will settle there and possess the holy Land. The children of those who serve Him will inherit it and those who love Him will live there.

Psalm 70:1-5 Make haste and save me, O God, let our enemies be shamed and confused, may all who desire our ruin be disgraced. May all who think they have the upper hand, be defeated.
But let all who seek the Lord be jubilant and rejoice in their salvation, all those who long for His rescue will shout: All glory to God!!
Now, we are oppressed and poor, Lord come quickly and save us. You are our help and deliverer, Lord do not delay!

Psalm 73:12 & 17-20 The wicked feel secure as they amass wealth and power. But then, I saw what their destiny will be. They are on a slippery slope and they will fall headlong into disastrous ruin. In an instant they are destroyed, completely swept away by Your terrors, You make an end to them. They become as a dream when one awakes, like fantasies of the imagination. Reference: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

Keras,

Psalm 69 & 70 are not prophecies and have nothing to do with the end times. They're psalms from David pleading in repentance. There are quite a few in the book of psalms from David as punishment for the sins he committed with Bathsheba and his attempt to kill her husband Uriah.

“Save me, O God!”: This psalm attributed to David is a cry of despair to the Lord when he was being afflicted by enemies that seemed to surround him at all times. The psalm itself could be split into three sections. The first 21 verses are a cry to the Lord, laying out the problem that David finds himself in. He starts out weary from crying out, asking where the Lord is and for Him to save him. Note the utter despair that is displayed within these first few verses as David pours out his heart before the Lord. As is typical of David, when he finds himself in times of trouble and affliction, he turns to the Lord for peace and deliverance. The second sections, verses 22-28, consist of David calling for the ultimate judgement of God on the peoples that afflict him, on account of their unrighteousness, for they hated him for no reason (v. 4). It is God who reserves the right to make this judgment, for His is righteous. The last section, from verse 29 and following, is a section of praise to the Lord. Notice how David still finds voice to his praise even in the midst of great affliction, even when he might not even fully feel the presence of God in the midst of his situation (v. 3). David praises God because He is good, and he has great confidence in Him that He will deliver His people. May we also have this confidence in the Lord, even when things seem to be going awry.
http://twentyeighteighteen.com/2015/06/17/psalm-69-71-cries-of-despair-and-praise/

http://www.jesuswalk.com/psalms/psalms-5-rescue.htm​

And you don't want to encourage others to go to Jerusalem during the tribulation as it will get totally destroy and everyone within the city at the middle of the tribulation. Let's God regather His people, the remaining Israelites from the remaining tribes of Jacob back into the holy land to fulfill His promise to Jacob: Genesis 28:13-15, Romans 11 so He can share the gospel with them too. He will lead those -- who are obedient -- out of the city fleeing to safety before He destroys it as He did with Lot fleeing Sodom.

The wrath of God in the second half of the tribulation will begin in Jerusalem at the AoD, (Luke 17:28-37, Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20) as He'll gather His enemies to invade Jerusalem, (Ezekiel 38, Jeremiah 25:15-29, Revelation 9:13-16) where they will be kill. God will begin His wrath in His city first: Jerusalem, (Jeremiah 25:29).

Jeremiah 25:15-29 GNT
15 The Lord, the God of Israel, said to me, “Here is a wine cup filled with my anger. Take it to all the nations to whom I send you, and make them drink from it. 16 When they drink from it, they will stagger and go out of their minds because of the war I am sending against them.”

17 So I took the cup from the Lord's hand, gave it to all the nations to whom the Lord had sent me, and made them drink from it. 18 Jerusalem and all the towns of Judah, together with its kings and leaders, were made to drink from it, so that they would become a desert, a terrible and shocking sight, and so that people would use their name as a curse—as they still do.

19-26 Here is the list of all the others who had to drink from the cup:

the king of Egypt, his officials and leaders;
all the Egyptians and all the foreigners in Egypt;
all the kings of the land of Uz;
all the kings of the Philistine cities of Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and what remains of Ashdod;
all the people of Edom, Moab, and Ammon;
all the kings of Tyre and Sidon;
all the kings of the Mediterranean lands;
the cities of Dedan, Tema, and Buz;
all the people who cut their hair short;
all the kings of Arabia;
all the kings of the desert tribes;
all the kings of Zimri, Elam, and Media;
all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another.

Every nation on the face of the earth had to drink from it. Last of all, the king of Babylonia will drink from it.

27 Then the Lord said to me, “Tell the people that I, the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, am commanding them to drink until they are drunk and vomit, until they fall down and cannot get up, because of the war that I am sending against them. 28 And if they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink from it, then tell them that the Lord Almighty has said that they will still have to drink from it. 29 I will begin my work of destruction in my own city. Do they think they will go unpunished? No, they will be punished, for I am going to send war on all the people on earth. I, the Lord Almighty, have spoken.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jer%2025%3A15-29&version=GNT​

Jerusalem will be utterly destroy as well as everyone: every Jews & gentiles within the city. Only those who flee out of the city in time will be saved, as in the days of Lot. The rest of the cities of Judah in Israel will also be destroy afterwards.

Isaiah 64:9-12

Jeremiah 26:18

Ezekiel 22:17-22

Isaiah 29:1-8

Micah 1:1-9

Micah 3:1-20

Amos 9:1-10 (Amos 9:8)

Lamentations chapters 1 to 5

Ezekiel 5

Jeremiah 52







.

 

[keras]

Keras,
Psalm 69 & 70 are not prophecies and have nothing to do with the end times. They're psalms from David pleading in repentance. There are quite a few in the book of psalms from David as punishment for the sins he committed with Bathsheba and his attempt to kill her husband Uriah.

David was a prophet and what happened to him is like what happened to Israel: all those things were symbolic and were recorded as a warning for us, upon whom the end of the age has come. 1 Corinthians 10:11

It is a mistake to go by what the commentators say about Bible passages, they carefully avoid any prophecy related to the end times.
Right, we goyem simply cannot go to live in Israel now anyway. But after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath: The Lord's people will settle in the holy Land, those who love His Name will live there. Psalm 69:35-36

 

[BABerean2]

And you don't want to encourage others to go to Jerusalem during the tribulation as it will get totally destroy and everyone within the city at the middle of the tribulation. Let's God regather His people, the remaining Israelites from the remaining tribes of Jacob back into the holy land to fulfill His promise to Jacob: Genesis 28:13-15, Romans 11 so He can share the gospel with them too. He will lead those -- who are obedient -- out of the city fleeing to safety before He destroys it as He did with Lot fleeing Sodom.

Gen 28:14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."


Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.


The seed in which all the nations would be blessed, is Jesus Christ.

The covenant in Romans chapter 11 is the New Blood Covenant of Christ.
The Olive Tree in Romans chapter 11 is a symbol of the Church.

The Church is now the only way of Salvation until the Second Coming.
.

 

[iamlamad]

Before we go on,who is Israel to you?Who is being referred to in the below verse?

Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

Also who is Jesus talking about?

Matthew 15:24 "But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Were the Jew's lost

I ask because,if you use that verse,be sure of whom the scriptures speak...

Read the "if"qualifiers in the Word of God

Every heard of Jacob and his 12 sons?

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad what makes you or any other pretribber more important than all other Christians who have endured tribulations?

Understanding the difference between what they went through and what's coming should tell you that there will be no rapture...But just out of curiosity,just what are you all(rapturist) escaping?

Human reasoning put above the word of God will always lead you astray.
I did not write Luke 21:36. But it is there for all to read. By the way, there are Christians enduring "tribulations" today, and some of them are losing their head. But this has nothing to do with the pretrib rapture except telling us it may be close.

 

[iamlamad]

You are a sadly deceived dreamer. Do you really think that God has given up on His plan to have a righteous nation living in the holy Land?
No, of course not! But they will be descendants of Jacob.


What's more you have pre-judged yourself as sufficiently worthy to go to heaven as the Bride of Christ.
Brother in Christ, I counsel you to seriously rethink your beliefs and to cease your foolish comments against those who challenge the theories you espouse.
On the contrary, I actually believe what is written. I pray to be found worthy to escape what is coming. I actually believe Paul in 1 thes. 4 & 5 and John 14. Again, I believe John:

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

How can one have the Holy Spirit - the very God of creation - dwelling inside, and the Holy Spirit upon one, and not know it?

I suspect you are one more on this thread that BYPASSED Acts 1 & 2 and hope to live a normal Christian life WITHOUT the greatest gift outside of the born again experience.

Psalm 69:13-18 At the acceptable time, I will lift up my prayer to You, Lord: in Your great love, answer me with Your salvation. Rescue me, do not let me sink, deliver me from those who hate me. Do not let the depths of the pit engulf me, in Your great compassion; turn toward me. Come near and redeem me and deliver me from my enemies.

Psalm 69:22-28 My enemies preparations become a trap for them, their eyes are veiled, so they cannot see the punishment coming upon them. Pour out Your wrath upon them, let Your burning anger overtake them. Let their towns be deserted, their houses without inhabitants.
For our enemies have persecuted Your people, those who You sent into exile, enemies have multiplied our troubles and gloated over our trials.
Lord: heap double punishment on them, blot them out of the Book of Life. Let them not share in the salvation of the innocent.

Psalm 69:29-31 Now; I am in pain and distress, may Your salvation protect me. I shall praise God’s Name in song and glorify Him with thanksgiving. This will please Him more than a offering of a animal.

Psalm 69:32-36 The poor and humble will understand and be glad. Take heart, you seekers after the Lord, for He listens to you and does not reject His captive people. Let all things praise Him, for the Lord will deliver Zion and rebuild the towns of Judah. His people will settle there and possess the holy Land. The children of those who serve Him will inherit it and those who love Him will live there.

Psalm 70:1-5 Make haste and save me, O God, let our enemies be shamed and confused, may all who desire our ruin be disgraced. May all who think they have the upper hand, be defeated.
But let all who seek the Lord be jubilant and rejoice in their salvation, all those who long for His rescue will shout: All glory to God!!
Now, we are oppressed and poor, Lord come quickly and save us. You are our help and deliverer, Lord do not delay!

Psalm 73:12 & 17-20 The wicked feel secure as they amass wealth and power. But then, I saw what their destiny will be. They are on a slippery slope and they will fall headlong into disastrous ruin. In an instant they are destroyed, completely swept away by Your terrors, You make an end to them. They become as a dream when one awakes, like fantasies of the imagination. Reference: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

Don't forget, John the Baptist was the greatest of the Old Testament prophets, but the LEAST in the Kingdom of God is greater than he, for neither David or John were born again.

 

[n2thelight]

Human reasoning put above the word of God will always lead you astray.
I did not write Luke 21:36. But it is there for all to read. By the way, there are Christians enduring "tribulations" today, and some of them are losing their head. But this has nothing to do with the pretrib rapture except telling us it may be close.

Dang the human reasoning,we all have that,question was,what are you all escaping????

 

[n2thelight]

Every heard of Jacob and his 12 sons?

But of course I have.Let me simplify,who are they today,more to the point,do you consider them to be the Jew's?

 

[iamlamad]

I would not use the word "bad".
I would use the same word that Keras used above.
He was "deceived".

Anyone who claims there is a future plan of salvation outside of the New Blood Covenant Grace of Christ is deceived.
I thought this very Christ was coming back to Israel! Was I wrong? Did you imagine He was coming to NYC?





I continue to be amazed that my fellow Christians cannot see the obvious error of the idea.
And I continue to be amazed that you don't think God is big enough to get Israel saved. Do you not think Christ's "grace" is big enough to cover the descendants of Israel to, who believe?

Tell me, did anyone in Israel believe in God BEFORE Christ came and began offering salvation to the Gentiles? You KNOW they did. Why then is your thinking about God so small you don't think God can save the Jews after the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in?

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Did you not read in Rev. 14 of the EVERLASTING GOSPEL that will save the Jews? It is the GOSPEL.

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

John Nelson Darby brought the two peoples of God doctrine to America, about the time of the Civil War.
This doctrine has spread like a virus through the evangelical Church, especially in Baptist churches.
Most of those sitting in the pews have no idea where their end-time doctrine came from and have heard only one version their whole lives.
It is the version mainly heard on the Christian Television Networks. It is Darby's version.

We now have millions of evangelical Christians who believe that God has a separate plan of salvation for the modern descendants of Jacob. It is not found in God's Word.
Whoever has said "separate?" It will be the SAME Jesus! I read in the bible that Jesus' feet touches down on the Mount of Olives in ISRAEL. I read that He will be KING of Israel again. Do you expect He will be king of people spiritually dead? It will most certainly be the VERY SAME Jesus that now has turned to the Gentiles for a people that will give Him what He wants.

Therefore, it is a deception. The Only deception here is that you have ZERO faith that God can save the Jews and members of the other lost tribes that love God JUST AS MUCH AS YOU DO.

They also believe that they do not have to worry about global government, because we will be taken out of here before it happens. One of my past preachers gave a sermon on this topic. He has been deceived by Darby's doctrine.

Those who have been shown the true history of the doctrine and have been shown the scriptural errors of the doctrine, but refuse to acknowledge them and continue to promote the doctrine are in the same error...

Bla bla bla: same old record. Same old dither. In case you have not known it, GOD IS FAR BIGGER than the box you have put Him in. IN THE END HE WILL SAVE THE JEWS that you have zero faith He can save. And He will be KING from ISRAEL.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A Baptist speaks on the History of Dispensationalism in America
http://founders.org/fj09/the-history-of-dispensationalism-in-america/

.

Your thinking is very small when it comes to how God will save a people He has promised to save. Many Jews today have faith in the IDF. But when it is gone, WHO will they turn to? Did you never read Daniel?

12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

God is GOING to save some of them: you can take that to the bank. You seem to live only the verses you cherry pick to fit your theories. But you MISS many others that show us exactly what God is going to do. And it will be the SAME JESUS that does it. Surely you know that IS NO SALVATION outside of Jesus Christ? Do you imagine His grace will not cover the Hebrews just as it has covered us? Again, do you imagine Jesus will touch down in NYC or Las Angeles? He is coming back to ISRAEL.

 

[iamlamad]

Gen 28:14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."


Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.


The seed in which all the nations would be blessed, is Jesus Christ.

The covenant in Romans chapter 11 is the New Blood Covenant of Christ.
The Olive Tree in Romans chapter 11 is a symbol of the Church.

The Church is now the only way of Salvation until the Second Coming.

Are you BLIND to what happens AFTER the Second coming?

By the way, we are GRAFTED IN to the original tree: ISRAEL. It is nonsense to think there is a Gentile tree. We are grafted in to THEIR TREE for "salvation is of the JEWS." I can assure you GOD IS BIGGER than your small thinking and God will CERTAINLY save many sons of Jacob that you have given up on. And it will be the SAME JESUS that accomplishes this, for there is NO OTHER NAME whereby anyone can be saved.