Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Cush]

Ephesians 2 clearly teaches that. Born again is being regenerated. Those born again are those made alive in the Spirit, they then sit with Christ in heavenly places. Being regenerated comes before our faith. God works out the details regarding our justification by faith, but we must be born again prior to entering the kingdom of God.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly placesin Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Good share sdowney,

Regeneration occurs "when we were dead". Dead men do not cooperate with Grace.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Cush

 

[Marvin Knox]

Well we obviously disagree because God doesn't predestine all thingsgot most all obviously does not pre-Dustin sin does not predestine pain does not predestine evil God gives human beings the free will and his image to do slow things but they're not predestined by God

Most of the above doesn't make much sense - which you'll see quite clearly if you'll go to the trouble of reading what you wrote again.

But I think you are saying that sin, pain, and evil came into history by the free will actions of men and angels and not the direct actions of God.

If you'll take the time to re-read my post after you re-read yours - you'll find that that is exactly what I said.

We agree on that. The things that God predestines to happen He brings to past through the free will actions of His creation.

Clearly He is displaying his eternal knowledge of sin and evil and the consequences thereof in this present age - so that He can display it in the ages to come without revisiting it again and again. Sin and evil must come to past through the actions of the creation and not God's direct actions simply because, by the definition of what sin is, God cannot do sin Himself.

What God decrees is always good. It cannot be evil. What appears to be evil to our eyes is in reality eventually to be shown as good. We have numerous examples of that in history as explained for us in the scriptures -- not the least of which is the horrible murder of the Son of God.

God's decree and predestination was good even though it was bought to past through evil.

By the way - everything that God knows will happen must of necessity happen and cannot not happen. Since God knew everything that would happen before anything came into existence - everything that happens was pre-destined to happen by God from before time. It cannot logically be otherwise.

It would be quite another thing if creation had the attribute of "aseity" just like God has. But it does not. Everything that exists and functions owes it's existence and ability to function to the creative and controlling power of God the source of all things.

That's not rocket surgery. That's just simple logic.

You may not like the eventual implications of that fact. But they remain anyway.

He's God. We're the creation. We need to live with that fact and also include that fact in all of our theology.

 

[Cush]

There's a difference between predestination and foreordination. And I really wish people would refer to "free will" as autonomous or libertarian will. Calvinist are not arguing "choice". Having a choice is not free will or autonomy, where one is 1) able to rule over one's self, as god apart from God, and 2) exists as many gods and be sovereign. This extends back to the age old hiss from the garden of Eden, Genesis 3:5.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Ephesians 2 clearly teaches that. Born again is being regenerated. Those born again are those made alive in the Spirit, they then sit with Christ in heavenly places. Being regenerated comes before our faith. God works out the details regarding our justification by faith, but we must be born again prior to entering the kingdom of God.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly placesin Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

No one is regenerated before faith. That is one of the things that Calvinist's believe that is an error.

We come to God in faith.

 

[Cush]

No one is regenerated before faith. That is one of the things that Calvinist's believe that is an error.

We come to God in faith.

Which clearly rejects Ephesians 2.

You are stating that man in his natural state has the ability to act in faith, and even perhaps in repentance? Are you familiar with the heresy of Pelagianism? If man has the ability without the intervention of God, why Jesus? As a good moral guide or teacher?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Those who read these passages realize that Paul is noting their former lifestyles as unbelievers and admonishing believers to NOT continue to live like that.

For example: "So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind," Eph 4:17.

iow, believers are to stop living like unbelievers. The exact SAME word is used in Acts 4:17 when the Pharisees told the disciples to "speak no longer to anyone in this name". iow, they WERE speaking to others in the name of Christ. And the Pharisees ordered them to STOP IT.

But you said this before....

"The Bible plainly says all men are sinners. Not "were" sinners, as you suppose."
~ Quote from: FreeGrace2.​

...

 

[Cush]

No one is regenerated before faith. That is one of the things that Calvinist's believe that is an error.

Romans 3:9-11:

10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

Read Psalms 14:1-3, as well as Psalms 5:9;Psalms 36:1;Psalms 53:1-3;Psalms 140:3;Psalms 10:7, and even Ecc 7:20. Paul compiles a series of OT passages that taken together stress universal human sinfulness and depravity and condemnation of all mankind. As it is written, Psalms 14:1-7 makes an allusion to Genesis 6:5 all the children of men were viewed by God in the time of old, the Lord Himself looked down upon the world and saw the wickedness of man was great. In some of the best of times, the times of David and Isaiah, the sins by one are shown to be in the nature of all mankind - Isaiah 59:7-8. This is in sharp contrast from God’s judgment that all that He Himself made was “very good”. None, no, not one implies that none retain anything of righteousness from the image of God. The eyes of God Himself searched upon the earth and were upon Noah, to the man after God’s own heart from which himself states that I am sinful at conception Psalms 51:5. Not one of them was born in righteousness, not one from any of them who through Grace are Justified and Sanctified, to anyone born with us by nature.

I am inclined to believe in the strictest sense the principle made in Scripture and in the doctrine of Total Depravity. None, no, not one seeks for God: Romans 8:7; Job 21:15-16; Isaiah 9:13, Isaiah 31:1, Isaiah 55:6, Isaiah 65:1; Hosea 7:10.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You've yet failed to explain how God's gifts, which are irrevocable (Rom 11:29) and include eternal life (Rom 6:23) can be lost.

You've yet failed to explain how God's "own possession", who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption, can end up not seeing the day of redemption.

Until you do, it is only very obvious that ALL of the verses you post cannot mean what you think they mean. None of them.

So, get back to the drawing board and figure out how one who has received the free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23), which is also irrevocable (Rom 11:29), can lose it.

Then, after proving that an irrevocable gift can be lost or revoked (I don't care how one phrases it) figure out how any of God's own possession who has been sealed for the day of redemption, which is described as a promise and guarantee, won't see the day of redemption.

Only after you've done that should anyone even bother to consider your opinions.

Well, in reference to Romans 11:29:
Actually, I have already explained this to you back in Post #2173. I said....

"This is spoken to unsaved Israel (But it can apply to all). So the context here is not to saved believers. It does not mean Israel will be saved even if they remain in unbelief."​

Post Source:
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...with-calvinism.7914236/page-109#post-69081028

This interpretation makes sense because verse 22 essentially says "we" Gentiles can be cut off (just like the Jews) if we do not continue in his goodness (Romans 11:22).

20 "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22).


....

 

[ToBeLoved]

Which clearly rejects Ephesians 2.

You are stating that man in his natural state has the ability to act in faith, and even perhaps in repentance? Are you familiar with the heresy of Pelagianism? If man has the ability without the intervention of God, why Jesus? As a good moral guide or teacher?

I said no one is regenerated before they come to Christ in faith.

Don't add your own theory to what I said.

 

[Cush]

I said no one is regenerated before they come to Christ in faith.

Don't add your own theory to what I said.

You must be very proud of yourself.

Don't add your own theory? To what You said? How about using Scripture, and not ignoring the presented Scripture.

Up to this point you clearly have ignored me, and now you're ignoring the Scriptures.

 

[EmSw]

Lets at least understand the terminology we (Calvinist) are using:

What does "Rebirth", "Born Again", "Born from Above" or "Regeneration" Mean?

Calvinists make up their own definitions.

 

[Cush]

Calvinists make up their own definitions.

Did you even read it?

 

[EmSw]

Did you even read it?

I have read this stuff many, many times.

 

[Cush]

I have read this stuff many, many times.

Does that mean yes or no, you read the article? And if so, do you agree or disagree? Regeneration is a theological term not in the bible, just like trinitarian, and even Bible.

I'm just trying to figure out what you mean by Calvinist make up their own definitions. Are you comparing, for example, the differences between Roman Catholics and Reformed Protestants on the definition of Justification?

I mean I could share my observation about non-denominational members, which seemingly reject essential ecumenical creeds, and ignore 2000 years of arguments in the church. Otherwise, they would not be regressing to the heresy of Pelagianism or even worse... back to Rome.

So if you don't mind, please enlighten me.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Romans 3:9-11:

10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

Read Psalms 14:1-3, as well as Psalms 5:9;Psalms 36:1;Psalms 53:1-3;Psalms 140:3;Psalms 10:7, and even Ecc 7:20. Paul compiles a series of OT passages that taken together stress universal human sinfulness and depravity and condemnation of all mankind. As it is written, Psalms 14:1-7 makes an allusion to Genesis 6:5 all the children of men were viewed by God in the time of old, the Lord Himself looked down upon the world and saw the wickedness of man was great. In some of the best of times, the times of David and Isaiah, the sins by one are shown to be in the nature of all mankind - Isaiah 59:7-8. This is in sharp contrast from God’s judgment that all that He Himself made was “very good”. None, no, not one implies that none retain anything of righteousness from the image of God. The eyes of God Himself searched upon the earth and were upon Noah, to the man after God’s own heart from which himself states that I am sinful at conception Psalms 51:5. Not one of them was born in righteousness, not one from any of them who through Grace are Justified and Sanctified, to anyone born with us by nature.

I am inclined to believe in the strictest sense the principle made in Scripture and in the doctrine of Total Depravity. None, no, not one seeks for God: Romans 8:7; Job 21:15-16; Isaiah 9:13, Isaiah 31:1, Isaiah 55:6, Isaiah 65:1; Hosea 7:10.

Why don't you list out all of your verses. No one can take the time to look them all up.

I'll list the ones that say one must come to God by faith:

1. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
2. Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
3. Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
4. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
5. Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
6. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
7. Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
8. Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
9. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
10. Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
11. Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12. Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
13. Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
14. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
15. Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
16. Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
17. Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
18. Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
19. Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
20. Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
21. Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
22. Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
23. 1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Being born again is what God does when we come to Him in faith.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Calvinists make up their own definitions.

Yup. And each one is used differently and intermixed. It's confusing. Everything is regeneration. I think that the 'default' word for any doctrine.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You must be very proud of yourself.

Don't add your own theory? To what You said? How about using Scripture, and not ignoring the presented Scripture.

Up to this point you clearly have ignored me, and now you're ignoring the Scriptures.

See post #3275

Just for you.

 

[Cush]

Why don't you list out all of your verses. No one can take the time to look them all up.

I'll list the ones that say one must come to God by faith:

1. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
2. Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
3. Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
4. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
5. Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
6. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
7. Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
8. Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
9. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
10. Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
11. Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12. Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
13. Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
14. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
15. Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
16. Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
17. Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
18. Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
19. Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
20. Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
21. Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
22. Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
23. 1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Being born again is what God does when we come to Him in faith.

I refuse to engage you in a game of Scriptural PING PONG. Obviously, addressing the Scriptures at hand proves too difficult. I realize you can copy and paste, but I see no evidence that you can comprehend the meaning of any Scripture.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I refuse to engage you in a game of Scriptural PING PONG. Obviously, addressing the Scriptures at hand proves too difficult. I realize you can copy and paste, but I see no evidence that you can comprehend the meaning of any Scripture.

You asked for scripture. I give you scripture.

Now I am accused of scriptural ping-pong?

What a coincidence that you do not want to address scripture that clearly says faith is needed and one must come to God in faith.

Are you kidding me?

Last time I take the time to respond to a request from you that you obviously don't want.

 

[Cush]

Yup. And each one is used differently and intermixed. It's confusing. Everything is regeneration. I think that the 'default' word for any doctrine.

You think? Is that just another way for saying you're guessing. There's nothing worse than talking past one another. We can't even agree on the terminology, nevertheless, the interpretation. But I know, non-denominational won't hesitate to blame the Holy Spirit for the lack of comprehension.