Denying Calvinism...

[Alithis]

The funny thing is that when you read Spurgeon's sermons, he denies Calvinism himself, yet continues to promote the idea that he is a Calvinist. So what is stated above is patently false.

or you mean perhaps that it "presented " without balance .
i think in truth we are all both Calvinists .. and not Calvinists .as personally i view the way to life as the lord Jesus said .. "a narrow road " and i view it as a narrow way that lays balanced between law(extreme) and liberalism grace(extreme)

 

[ToBeLoved]

i can see how either side of this kind of debate can err . we do not "do" to be saved -we "do" because it is evidence that we are saved .

and if our life displays that we continue in practice of sin then "that" is evidence that we are not yet saved .

Actually not at all.

Lack of sin is not evidence that we are saved, but whether or not we have more of the fruit if the spirit. I'm a little surprised that you would say that.

 

[Alithis]

Actually not at all.

Lack of sin is not evidence that we are saved, but whether or not we have more of the fruit if the spirit. I'm a little surprised that you would say that.

actually it is direct scripture . any one who continues to practice sin.. does not know God - 1 john chapter 3 . its is possibly the most unpopular chapter in the bible it seems at times. but there it is ..in full agreement with everything peter and paul and James a Jude wrote in thier epistles to the church . lack of sin is very much evidence that we are born of the Spirit .

 

[ToBeLoved]

actually it is direct scripture . any one who continues to practice sin.. does not know God - 1 john chapter 3 . its is possibly the most unpopular chapter in the bible it seems at times. but there it is ..in full agreement with everything peter and paul and James a Jude wrote in thier epistles to the church . lack of sin is very much evidence that we are born of the Spirit .

Is it evidence for you personally or evidence to others?

 

[Alithis]

Is it evidence for you personally or evidence to others?

what do you think lol. evidence is evidence to "any one " observing the evidence . here - allow me to pop up the text ..

" Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil."

depending on ones perception ,this is possibly one of the most testing pieces of scripture in the bible as to searching ones own heart in regard to ones own salvation .
i view this as absolute truth. as i do all the scriptures .

 

[ToBeLoved]

what do you think lol. evidence is evidence to "any one " observing the evidence . here - allow me to pop up the text ..

" Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil."

depending on ones perception ,this is possibly one of the most testing pieces of scripture in the bible as to searching ones own heart in regard to ones own salvation .
i view this as absolute truth. as i do all the scriptures .

So you believe that you know others well enough to be able to evaluate if they are Christ's based on their sin? How many people show their sin or even admit it? Sin is kept very closely guarded.

What we are told is not to evaluate others by their sin, but by their fruit.

Matthew 12:33
"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.


Luke 8:14-15
"The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

John 15:1-8
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Galatians 5:22-26
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

So, you are looking at the opposite criteria.

 

[Thursday]

So I saw a shirt today worn by a teenage looking young man that said, "To deny Calvinism is to deny the gospel of Jesus Christ ~ C.H. Spurgeon" True or False?

False. Calvinism contradicts the gospel in many ways.

Calvinists deny that Jesus draws all men to himself.

Calvinists deny that our actions impact our salvation.

Calvinists claim that God predestines some men to Hell.

Calvinists claim that nothing a Chrisstian does can impact their salvation.

 

[ladodgers6]

False. Calvinism contradicts the gospel in many ways.

Calvinists deny that Jesus draws all men to himself.

Calvinists deny that our actions impact our salvation.

Calvinists claim that God predestines some men to Hell.

Calvinists claim that nothing a Chrisstian does can impact their salvation.

I beg to differ,please provide resources from our camp that support your notions of these allegations.Because like I said people tend to caricature Calvinism,because they do not read,study,and understand it.

 

[Alithis]

So you believe that you know others well enough to be able to evaluate if they are Christ's based on their sin? How many people show their sin or even admit it? Sin is kept very closely guarded.

What we are told is not to evaluate others by their sin, but by their fruit.

Matthew 12:33
"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.


Luke 8:14-15
"The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

John 15:1-8
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Galatians 5:22-26
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

So, you are looking at the opposite criteria.

no.. i believe what the bible says and 1 john 3 perfectly agrees with All the verses you just posted ...

Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil."...

depending on ones perception ,this is possibly one of the most testing pieces of scripture in the bible as to searching ones own heart in regard to ones own salvation .
i view this as absolute truth. as i do all the scriptures .
Click to expand...

 

[Alithis]

again -

i can see how either side of this kind of debate can err . we do not "do" to be saved -we "do" because it is evidence that we are saved .

and if our life displays that we continue in practice of sin then "that" is evidence that we are not yet saved .

you cant "do righteousness while practicing an abundance of sin . so we can word it either way ... as John does .

 

[ToBeLoved]

again -




you cant "do righteousness while practicing an abundance of sin . so we can word it either way ... as John does .

I disagree. We each know the amount of sin in ourselves, but not another. Judging another by sin is to pass judgment.

To evaluate by the fruit of the spirit does not pass judgement on anyone for sin.

 

[Alithis]

I disagree. We each know the amount of sin in ourselves, but not another. Judging another by sin is to pass judgment.

To evaluate by the fruit of the spirit does not pass judgement on anyone for sin.

i think you've missed the point .. this is not about me or you judging anyone . its just about the scripture .
here let me post it again ... Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil.". ..

 

[de1929]

So I saw a shirt today worn by a teenage looking young man that said, "To deny Calvinism is to deny the gospel of Jesus Christ ~ C.H. Spurgeon" True or False?

i call it excluded middle (or false dichotomy)

 

[rockytopva]

I believe the path to the Charismatic movement....

Non-Conformist - Such as John Bunyan
Armenian - Such as Jacob Arminius
Methodist - Such as John Wesley
Pentecostal - Such as William Seymour and Smith Wigglesworth
Charismatic - No particular individual - Lots of individual churches ranging from the church service being held at the local school to the mega-church.

If you throw in John Calvin...

Non-Conformist - Such as John Bunyan
Calvinist- Such as John Calvin
Methodist - Such as George Whitefield
Baptist - Such as the Free-Will and the Primitive Baptist church, who have just that little bit of Methodist flavor to them.

Churches... All the same... But different paths. I do not know of the first single Charismatic church that is Calvinist. We trace our lineage back to Jacob Arminius.

 

[de1929]

I believe the path to the Charismatic movement....

Non-Conformist - Such as John Bunyan
Armenian - Such as Jacob Arminius
Methodist - Such as John Wesley
Pentecostal - Such as William Seymour and Smith Wigglesworth
Charismatic - No particular individual - Lots of individual churches ranging from the church service being held at the local school to the mega-church.

If you throw in John Calvin...

Non-Conformist - Such as John Bunyan
Calvinist- Such as John Calvin
Methodist - Such as George Whitefield
Baptist - Such as the Free-Will and the Primitive Baptist church, who have just that little bit of Methodist flavor to them.

Churches... All the same... But different paths. I do not know of the first single Charismatic church that is Calvinist. We trace our lineage back to Jacob Arminius.

Because Calvinist does not speak tongue in public
Calvinist follow bible according to exegesis, and taking 1 Cor 14:28 to diminished the work of charismata in their circle. cmiiw

 

[ToBeLoved]

i think you've missed the point .. this is not about me or you judging anyone . its just about the scripture .
here let me post it again ... Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil.". ..

And how does this make Calvinism right or wrong?

 

[ladodgers6]

i think you've missed the point .. this is not about me or you judging anyone . its just about the scripture .
here let me post it again ... Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil.". ..

Yes,I would agree that as new creations in Christ we must walk in righteousness,not continue in the practice of sin.But when we do fall because of sin we have Christ interceding for his elect.Therefore walk in righteousness brother and sisters.

 

[ToBeLoved]

i think you've missed the point .. this is not about me or you judging anyone . its just about the scripture .
here let me post it again ... Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil.". ..

Ok, then what is the tipping point?

What is the point that I go from being just a sinner trying to please Christ to a sinner who makes a practice of sinning?

Because you are using this verse to show that sin tells us who the children are of God and who the children of the devil are, so what is the tipping point that the scale tips from being God's child to the devil's child?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes,I would agree that as new creations in Christ we must walk in righteousness,not continue in the practice of sin.But when we do fall because of sin we have Christ interceding for his elect.Therefore walk in righteousness brother and sisters.

But.

But. He uses sin as the scale and says that he can tell who is a child of God and who is a child of the devil by how much they sin.

So, he must have a mechanism for evaluating someone's sin. Not just saying we should walk in righteousness, that is NOT what he said.

 

[Alithis]

Yes,I would agree that as new creations in Christ we must walk in righteousness,not continue in the practice of sin.But when we do fall because of sin we have Christ interceding for his elect.Therefore walk in righteousness brother and sisters.

... interesting . i am assuming the scripture you are alluding to is 1 john 2 -
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." -
you will note i have highlighted the word IF .. as opposed to the word you have used which is "when" .
on assumes that to sin is a tragic occurrence .. the other word assumes it is ok to do so .