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Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Fusion77

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My friend and I read an article yesterday about how the abomination of desolations both times were preceded by apostasy in the temple (ex. the vision Ezekiel saw of the men with their backs to the temple, worshipping the sun, etc.). We, the Church, are the temple now, they said, so maybe it will somehow come about on the foundation of apostasy in the professing church. Here's the article:

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/51/t/the-abomination-of-desolation
Interesting. But, there will be a man of sin who sits in the temple as God and proclaims himself to be God.
Almost all scholars, including Dispensationalists, understand that Luke 21:24 is about 70 AD.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Then look at what leads up to the verse.


Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.


Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:


Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.


Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.


Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.


Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.


Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


( Look at what Jesus said to the women who were crying when He was being led to be crucified.

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.


Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.


Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.


Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? )






Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Notice there is a specification that a gap of time will occur between Luke 21:24 and the next verse.
The last Gentile comes into the Church on the day of Christ's Second Coming.

And below we have Christ's future Second Coming. It is the answer to the second question.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;



Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
.

Almost all scholars, including Dispensationalists, understand that Luke 21:24 is about 70 AD.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Then look at what leads up to the verse.


Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.


Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:


Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.


Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.


Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.


Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.


Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


( Look at what Jesus said to the women who were crying when He was being led to be crucified.

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.


Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.


Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.


Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? )






Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Notice there is a specification that a gap of time will occur between Luke 21:24 and the next verse.
The last Gentile comes into the Church on the day of Christ's Second Coming.

And below we have Christ's future Second Coming. It is the answer to the second question.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;



Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
.

1 John 2:18 talks about the coming of the anti christ as a FUTURE event. This epistle was written in 90-95 AD. He States THE antichrist is coming THE = direct article. 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 says THE (direct articleman of sin will sit in the temple of Godcand claim to be God. It's not speaking of A man of sin but THE man of sin. 1 John was written in 95 AD, and he mentions the coming of THE antichrist as a future event.
 
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BABerean2

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I always thought there is some time when the times of the Gentiles are complete (the last Gentile saved... the rest are hardened against God) and then it's the time of the Jews (only 1% of Jews are Christians today but some day it looks like it will be around 33% per Zechariah 13:8-9).

This logic is mainly used by Dispensationalists, who say the Church must be removed 7 years before the Second Coming so God can go back to dealing with Israel again, outside of the Church. They claim this is the reason for the pretrib rapture. This idea cannot be found in scripture.

It is found on page 316 of the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" written by Manuel Lacunza, who was a Jesuit priest.

There shall be time, in the fourth place, for those events
of which I have spoke above, that is, for the conversion of the Jews, and likewise for the
gathering together and consuming of all the armies of Gog, which cannot take less time than
seven years
, according to the prophecy: and if these seven years signify a great and
indeterminate number of years, so much the better, for so much the more time will it be
necessary to allow. And so, my friend, you have the whole mystery deciphered. You see
where this pausing upon immediately, shortly, soon, not much after, terminates. This appears
to be the only true reason which has obliged them to convert the clear and simple words of
the apostle, the Lord Jesus shall destroy Antichrist with the brightness of his coming, into the
very obscure and equivocal words, he shall destroy him with the morning or dawn of his

Coming of Messiah Vol. 1 Part II. , p. 316



The Church is now the only way of Salvation, until the Second Coming of Christ.
The word "Gentile" originally referred to unbelievers.
The last "Gentile" will be saved on the day Christ returns, thanks to the continuous work of our fellow Christians and missionaries all over the world.

God can deal with the Church and the modern Jews at the same time, if He so desires.
He is not limited by space or time.
.
 
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BABerean2

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Interesting. But, there will be a man of sin who sits in the temple as God and proclaims himself to be God.


1 John 2:18 talks about the coming of the anti christ as a FUTURE event. This epistle was written in 90-95 AD. He States THE antichrist is coming THE = direct article. 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 says THE (direct articleman of sin will sit in the temple of Godcand claim to be God. It's not speaking of A man of sin but THE man of sin. 1 John was written in 95 AD, and he mentions the coming of THE antichrist as a future event.

I agree.

There are efforts currently underway to bring us into a one-world globalist system.

We live in a world of lies and deception.

However, the temple of God is now the Church. There could be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, but the verse from 2nd Thess. more likely refers to a man who claims to be part of the Church.

 
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Fusion77

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Almost all scholars, including Dispensationalists, understand that Luke 21:24 is about 70 AD.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Then look at what leads up to the verse.


Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.


Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:


Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.


Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.


Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.


Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.


Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


( Look at what Jesus said to the women who were crying when He was being led to be crucified.

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.


Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.


Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.


Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? )






Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Notice there is a specification that a gap of time will occur between Luke 21:24 and the next verse.
The last Gentile comes into the Church on the day of Christ's Second Coming.

And below we have Christ's future Second Coming. It is the answer to the second question.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;



Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
.

There is definitely some if the past in there, I don't dispute that. the thing is their will be coming the man of sin who makes a 7 year covenant based on a calendar of today.
 
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Fusion77

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I agree.

There are efforts currently underway to bring us into a one-world globalist system.

We live in a world of lies and deception.

However, the temple of God is now the Church. There could be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, but the verse from 2nd Thess. more likely refers to a man who claims to be part of the Church.
There will be a temple of God built. The Jews are thinking in the physical realm when Zechariah 6:11-15 speaks of the Branch building the temple. That's Christ and the spiritual temple. The AC will use that and say he's their messiah.
 
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Luke17:37

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Interesting. But, there will be a man of sin who sits in the temple as God and proclaims himself to be God.

1 John 2:18 talks about the coming of the anti christ as a FUTURE event. This epistle was written in 90-95 AD. He States THE antichrist is coming THE = direct article. 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 says THE (direct articleman of sin will sit in the temple of Godcand claim to be God. It's not speaking of A man of sin but THE man of sin. 1 John was written in 95 AD, and he mentions the coming of THE antichrist as a future event.

Yes, absolutely, there is a coming human Antichrist--perhaps the Mahdi, whom the Islamic Isa (false prophet/beast of the earth?) is supposed to support.
 
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BABerean2

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There is definitely some if the past in there, I don't dispute that. the thing is their will be coming the man of sin who makes a 7 year covenant based on a calendar of today.

Take a look at the following ceremony thanking newsman Walter Cronkite for his work to bring us into world government.
Also, look at the lady at the end who brags on him. She now wants to be president.



Jesus confirmed the covenant in Daniel 9:27.
There is no antichrist in Daniel chapter 9 and there is no "gap" of time mentioned by the angel Gabriel.
It is a manmade invention.
We also have to remember that the New Covenant was foretold previously at Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Do you think the angel Gabriel forgot to mention the New Covenant of the Messiah?



Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

..................................................................................

Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.
 
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Fusion77

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I think a lot of Jesus' response applies to both generations (e.g., the generation that heard the words from Jesus, and the last generation), because the first warning is false Christs/deceptions (seal 1), war/rumors of war (seal 2), famines (seal 3), pestilences (seal 4), earthquakes (seal 6)... martyrdom (seal 5--but not limited to that... Probably over the course of nearly the whole 3.5 years). When I read Revelation, I don't see any of the seals as opened because of the way things are described. So, I think the first generation experienced a mini-tribulation and the last generation endures the Tribulation (the worst time ever). Even as the Jewish Christians fled the Roman armies that destroyed Jerusalem, probably in the future the Judean Christians will flee.

I always thought there is some time when the times of the Gentiles are complete (the last Gentile saved... the rest are hardened against God) and then it's the time of the Jews (only 1% of Jews are Christians today but some day it looks like it will be around 33% per Zechariah 13:8-9).
I believe the 1/3?is speaking of the remnant that will pass through the wrath of God. In addition to that, there will be many who come to a saving knowledge of Christ is these last days.
 
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Fusion77

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Take a look at the following ceremony thanking newsman Walter Cronkite for his work to bring us into world government.
Also, look at the lady at the end who brags on him. She now wants to be president.



Jesus confirmed the covenant in Daniel 9:27.
There is no antichrist in Daniel chapter 9 and there is no "gap" of time mentioned by the angel Gabriel.
It is a manmade invention.
We also have to remember that the New Covenant was foretold previously at Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Do you think the angel Gabriel forgot to mention the New Covenant of the Messiah?



Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

..................................................................................

Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.
Look at Daniel 12:9 these things are sealed up until the END. That's where we are now. This was not intended for 167 BC as that was not the END. This is the END. Jesus spoke of the AOD as a future event, because it will be a future event.

the information is there for a reason, and it's for US today.
 
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Fusion77

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Take a look at the following ceremony thanking newsman Walter Cronkite for his work to bring us into world government.
Also, look at the lady at the end who brags on him. She now wants to be president.



Jesus confirmed the covenant in Daniel 9:27.
There is no antichrist in Daniel chapter 9 and there is no "gap" of time mentioned by the angel Gabriel.
It is a manmade invention.
We also have to remember that the New Covenant was foretold previously at Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Do you think the angel Gabriel forgot to mention the New Covenant of the Messiah?



Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

..................................................................................

Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.
When I say that information is there for a reason. IT IS! I think as students of the word of God we rely too much on commentaries. We have no idea if that commentator was led by the Spirit.


You may be able to find the 6th seal somewhere in the gospel accounts. Scripture interprets scripture. These New Testament writings were not for someone in 70 AD as they wouldn't have had access to the writings. These writings pertaining to the end are for us NOW. Again Daniel 12:9 sealed up until the END TIME. The thing is, we disregard the obvious. type and shadow ok, but fulfillment of Daniel, no. You know what sealed up until the END TIME means. When it speaks about some that happened in 70 Ad it's for OUR benefit END TIME.
 
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BABerean2

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Look at Daniel 12:9 these things are sealed up until the END. That's where we are now. This was not intended for 167 BC as that was not the END. This is the END. Jesus spoke of the AOD as a future event, because it will be a future event.

the information is there for a reason, and it's for US today.

We are currently being pushed into global government and the average Christian has no discernment, because modern Dispensational Theology has so overtaken the modern Church.
We are looking for signs that have already taken place and ignore what we see happening in front of our very eyes.
Why would any Christian ignore the video clip I just posted? How much clearer could it be?
You just heard it in their own words. It is not what I am saying. It is what they are saying.

You can ignore what has been presented in an effort to hold on to your doctrine or you can attempt to change your doctrine to match what is plainly written in God's Word and revealed by the historical record.
It is something I have had to do many times, during the last few years.

.
 
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BABerean2

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I believe the 1/3?is speaking of the remnant that will pass through the wrath of God. In addition to that, there will be many who come to a saving knowledge of Christ is these last days.

The tribulation period is not the "wrath of God". It is the wrath of Satan upon the Church.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

God pours out His wrath after we are gathered at the 7th trumpet. No one survives God's wrath.


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
(Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.)

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.
 
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Fusion77

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The tribulation period is not the "wrath of God". It is the wrath of Satan upon the Church.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

God pours out His wrath after we are gathered at the 7th trumpet. No one survives God's wrath.


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
(Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.)

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.
I know that. The unbelieving Jews will NOT be gathered after the tribulation. They will be left to face the wrath of God, upon the earth. He will bring 1/3 through the "fire". Zechariah 12:10-11. A future event, as the Jews don't except Him as their Messiah. After being brought through the fire and seeing Him whom they've pierced, they'll except Him.
 
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Fusion77

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We are currently being pushed into global government and the average Christian has no discernment, because modern Dispensational Theology has so overtaken the modern Church.
We are looking for signs that have already taken place and ignore what we see happening in front of our very eyes.
Why would any Christian ignore the video clip I just posted? How much clearer could it be?
You just heard it in their own words. It is not what I am saying. It is what they are saying.

You can ignore what has been presented in an effort to hold on to your doctrine or you can attempt to change your doctrine to match what is plainly written in God's Word and revealed by the historical record.
It is something I have had to do many times, during the last few years.

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I understand many signs are missed. I know a Great War is coming, it will be the Judgment of God,acted out through a Great War. It is described in Haggai 2:20-23. It shakes both the heavens and the earth. Which up until now hasn't happened. The world will be so ready for change, that tge anti christ will come up on the platform of peace and will change the laws.
 
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Fusion77

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The tribulation period is not the "wrath of God". It is the wrath of Satan upon the Church.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

God pours out His wrath after we are gathered at the 7th trumpet. No one survives God's wrath.


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
(Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.)

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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As, I said many will come to a saving knowledge of Christ in these end times (caught up after the tribulation). After the tribulation, those who disbelieve, will be left to face the wrath of God. 1/3, a remnant, will be brought through the fire. Then look upon Him whom they've pierced. The tribulation is the wrath of satan. Revelation 12:12
 
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BABerean2

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As, I said many will come to a saving knowledge of Christ in these end times (caught up after the tribulation). After the tribulation, those who disbelieve, will be left to face the wrath of God. 1/3, a remnant, will be brought through the fire. Then look upon Him whom they've pierced. The tribulation is the wrath of satan. Revelation 12:12

Based on Revelation 12:11 and many other verses, the Church will be going through the same time period.



Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

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Fusion77

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Based on Revelation 12:11 and many other verses, the Church will be going through the same time period.



Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


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The church will go through the wrath of satan but will be caught away before the wrath of God. Romans 5:9.
 
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Fusion77

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The church will go through the wrath of satan but will be caught away before the wrath of God. Romans 5:9.
Based on Revelation 12:11 and many other verses, the Church will be going through the same time period.



Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


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From what I've seen 99% of Christians are confused by the book of Revelation. I don't claim to understand a lot of the seals or trumpets, because I think many have transpired. My understanding comes from the prophets. Once you understand Zerubbabel is a type of 1 of the 2 witnesses in Zechariah 4 and parts of Haggai, I/you/anybody can see the future to an extent. Our next big event is a Major war. equate that to whatever seal or trumpet you want. Best one 1 see is the 6th trumpet. I find it hard to see how a war that shakes both the heavens and the earth doesn't represent some sort of event outlined in Revelation.


Or do you not understand that Joshua the High priest is a type of the Branch (Messiah) in parts of Haggai and in Zechariah 3 and Zechariah 6. Not because I say so but because Zechariah 3:8 the Lord says so. It's the same with Zerubbabel a type of the witness not because I say so but because the Lord says so Zechariah 3:8. "Thy follows before thee".


The Lord may have included some events in the gospel accounts around 70 Ad to show the 6th seal. I don't know, but it's there for a reason, and not for people who didn't have access to it in 70 AD.
 
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Note that the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-17) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).



There are indeed 3 woes (Revelation 8:13, Revelation 9:12, Revelation 11:14).

The 1st woe is the 5th trumpet, the time of the weird, locust-like creatures (Revelation 8:13 to 9:12).

In Revelation 9:12, the 2nd woe is the 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:13), which Revelation 11:14a shows will include both the weird, horse-like creatures of Revelation 9:17-19 and the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11:3-13.

Revelation 9:13-19 will occur right before, and then Revelation 11:2b-13 will occur during, the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14).

In Revelation 9:12 and Revelation 11:14, the 3rd woe is the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:14-15), which will announce the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). And then out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage, which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

*******



Regarding "the one Islam is looking for", are you thinking of the 12th Imam, also called the Mahdi?

If so, regarding the Muslim "Mahdi", during the Antichrist's rise to power, before he declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36) and begins his 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), if he greatly increases the military and political power of the Arab world, which is mostly Muslim, many Muslims could declare him to be the Mahdi. They could do this even though he won't fulfill most of the detailed Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi. For the Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi aren't scriptural, and so nothing requires that they will all be fulfilled. Also, the Antichrist could reject the solely-human title of the "Mahdi", in his own mind, as being far beneath what he sees as his divinity. And before he declares himself to be God, if he rejects the title of "Mahdi" publicly, he could pretend to do so for humble reasons, saying something like: "Oh, no, I am not the great Mahdi, but a humble peacemaker who wants the best for all Arabs and for all mankind, no matter what religion they may presently follow", etc.

Also, the first person whom Muslims will declare to be the Mahdi may not even be the Antichrist. For before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45), an Iraqi Baathist General could lead an all-out war against Israel which will result in its total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). This Iraqi Baathist General could then be hailed by Muslims worldwide as the Mahdi. But he will subsequently suffer a defeat (perhaps in Algeria), and then he will mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:18-19), so that the Muslims could say that they were mistaken in thinking that he was the Mahdi.

Similarly, years later, when the Antichrist claims to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and starts forcing the world to worship him (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9) and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), if many Muslims had said that he was the Mahdi, some of them could say that they were mistaken. Also, these actions by the Antichrist will result in a fatwa, a death sentence, being issued against him by radical Muslim clerics, which fatwa Islamic terrorists could then try to carry out by waging all-out jihad ("holy war") against the Antichrist. For they hold most strongly to Islam's tenets that no man can be God, that Lucifer/Satan is evil, and that no image can be worshipped. But the terrorist part of Islam (just as even the moderate part of Islam, and just as even public, Biblical Christianity) will eventually be wiped out during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, when everyone (not in hiding) will be forced to either convert to the Antichrist's religion of Gnostic Luciferianism or be killed (Revelation 13:4-18; 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

Also, even though Jews today don't go around killing people for religious reasons, by the time that the Antichrist declares himself to be God, some ultra-Orthodox Jews, led by a miracle-working false "Messiah", might also feel inspired to try to kill the Antichrist for blasphemy, especially when he will commit it (at least one time) even within their own (future) temple (2 Thessalonians 2:4) in Jerusalem, and he will defile that temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in every other religions' holiest shrine and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc. This could result in the radical adherents of every religion becoming so enraged at the Antichrist that they will all attempt to assassinate him. But they will all fail to defeat him, for he won't be defeated until he is cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8-9, Revelation 19:20).

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In Muslim prophecy, besides the Mahdi, there is also "The Masih ad-Dajjal", or "The False Messiah", whom Muslims say will appear in the end times. While Bible prophecy shows that there will be multiple false Messiahs, who will be able to perform amazing miracles (Matthew 24:24), Muslims could focus on one of these, a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Israel, as being "The Masih ad-Dajjal", after he declares himself to be the Messiah but then (with his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers) completely destroys the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, in order to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple.

It could be this destruction of the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, by a man whom the Muslims could declare to be "The Masih ad-Dajjal", which will give rise to the war in which another man, an Arab who could be the first man whom the Muslims will declare to be the Mahdi, will completely defeat and occupy Israel (Daniel 11:15-17).


A few questions:

1. The two witnesses are first mentioned in Rev 11:3. They have a 3 ½ year ministry, Rev 11:3. They are killed and raised to life in Rev, 11:7-11. What else happens within their 3 ½ years on earth, seals, trumpets, vials or any other event you see happening in that 3 ½ years, please list those events and explain how you arrive at that conclusion?

2. The beast in Rev 13 is given authority to continue 42 months, what events happens within that time period , seals, trumpets, vials or any other event you see happening in that 3 ½ years, , please list those events and explain how you arrive at that conclusion?

3. The woman of Rev. 14 is nourished for 3 ½ years in the wilderness, what events happens within that time period , seals, trumpets, vials or any other event you see happening in that 3 ½ years, , please list those events and explain how you arrive at that conclusion?

4. Do any of the time periods overlap? If so which ones and where? Please show how you arrived at your conclusion? Where do they start an end in the timeline of Revelation?

Anyone other than Bible2+ feel free to jump in.

 
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Fusion77

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Almost all scholars, including Dispensationalists, understand that Luke 21:24 is about 70 AD.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Then look at what leads up to the verse.


Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.


Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:


Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.


Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.


Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.


Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.


Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


( Look at what Jesus said to the women who were crying when He was being led to be crucified.

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.


Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.


Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.


Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? )






Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Notice there is a specification that a gap of time will occur between Luke 21:24 and the next verse.
The last Gentile comes into the Church on the day of Christ's Second Coming.

And below we have Christ's future Second Coming. It is the answer to the second question.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;



Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Luke 23:30 I do think could be possibly the Lord telling that, that will be the 6th seal and that it happened in the 1st century? Revelation 6:16 looks very similar to this. And, because it mentions the Lamb it would have to be after the cross.


Again, I can't say for sure, but I think we're a lot further ahead than almost anyone thinks.
 
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