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Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Fusion77

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You are confused will just leave you with

How can satan get kicked out after the two witnesses are killed,when it's him that kills them?
Revelation 13:2-5 you're good. It's the dragon who gives the beast his power and authority, after the dragon (satan) gets permanently kicked out of heaven. It's the beast, but the beast is given power fromthe dragon. The 2 witnesses will be empowered by the Holy Spirit and Christ and the beast will be powered by satan. I'm sure they'll be shot by the army that the beast controls, that the devil has given the power to. The witnesses won't be acting on their own power (Gods power). The beast and false prophet won't be acting on their own power (satans).
 
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Fusion77

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It was a future event when Jesus spoke the words.
However, a parallel study of the Gospels reveals that He was telling the early Christians to leave when they saw a similar event coming.
Not only did Antiochus defile the temple, but he also attacked the city and killed thousands of Jews.
Because the Jews of Jesus time celebrated Hanukkah, they were well aware of all of the events of 167 BC.

Luke's account clearly tells the early Christians to leave when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies.
In 66 AD the Romans under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded the city, but then left for some unknown reason.
The Jews killed thousands of the Roman soldiers during the retreat.

The early Christians heeded the words of Jesus and left before the siege of 70 AD.


.................................................................

Revealing the Abomination of Desolation in the Parallel Gospels:


During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka
.



Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. We know Luke 21:20 is related to Matthew 24:15, because the same warning to flee is found in the next verse.

We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.




Lets take a look at the word “compass” in Luke's account...


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Compare this to the reference in Luke chapter 19 about being surrounded and having a trench made around them.)

(Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.)

(The Jewish leadership should have known the time of His visitation, because it was foretold by the angel Gabriel in the Book of Daniel. There was no excuse for them not knowing He was the Messiah. We also find a reference here to the temple being destroyed. This passage clearly connects the events of 70 AD to Jerusalem being surrounded. In the KJV the word "compass" is used in both passages. It should also be noted that the city was surrounded by a Roman army under the command of Cestius Gallus in 66 AD. However, for some unknown reason the Romans stopped the siege and thousands of Romans were killed by the Jews during the retreat. The early Christians left the city sometime before the final siege of 70 AD. They followed the warning given by Christ.)

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

(Compare this verse to what Jesus said to the women crying while he was going to be crucified. Both passages contain a reference to nursing mothers.)

(Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.)

(According to the writings of Josephus, during the siege of 70 AD some mothers ate their own children.)

Almost all scholars, agree that the next verse is about the siege of 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (This last verse contains a reference to a time span that would occur before the fulfillment of the next verse. The time of the Gentiles will not end until the future Second Coming of Christ.)



At the beginning of Matthew chapter 24 the disciples ask Jesus two questions.




Mat 24:1
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.



Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



1. When will the temple be destroyed?


2. What will be the sign of thy coming (Gk. parousia), and the end of the age?




Jesus answers the first question within the first half of Matthew chapter 24.

He answers the second question within the last half of Matthew chapter 24.

The key Greek word “parousia” connects this second question to the future Second Coming of Christ.

This Greek word “parousia” found in other passages of the New Testament connect the passages to Christ’s return.
................................................................

I cannot say that it will not happen again.
.


Here's the problem with that. The gospel of Luke or gospels in general weren't even written until what? 70 AD. How would this information circulate? The Disciples were out preaching the gospel. Not a get ready to run when Rome sieges the city. None of the gospels were even available, for the public. It's the disciples who were present for this "discourse". Why would the Lord allow it to be in the canon of scripture? To confuse us? The Lord does not intend to confuse us about these basic things. Christ spoke of it as a future event. These are here for us today di we'll have a better understanding of these last days.



I'm well aware they celebrated feast of dedication in The days of Jesus. The temple was rededicated in around 160 BC. Jesus spoke of the abomination of desolation as a future event. This is for us today.
 
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BABerean2

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Here's the problem with that. The gospel of Luke or gospels in general weren't even written until what? 70 AD. How would this information circulate? The Disciples were out preaching the gospel. Not a get ready to run when Rome sieges the city. None of the gospels were even available, for the public. It's the disciples who were present for this "discourse". Why would the Lord allow it to be in the canon of scripture? To confuse us? The Lord does not intend to confuse us about these basic things. Christ spoke of it as a future event. These are here for us today di we'll have a better understanding of these last days.



I'm well aware they celebrated feast of dedication in The days of Jesus. The temple was rededicated in around 160 BC. Jesus spoke of the abomination of desolation as a future event. This is for us today.

My Bible says the Book of Luke is believed to have been written in the 60's.

You are ignoring the first question in Matthew chapter 24 and also what is plainly revealed in the parallel Gospels study given in my last post.



Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


1. When will these things be?

Jesus had just talked about the destruction of the temple.

In the Book of Acts the Apostle Paul clearly says that he fulfilled part of the Olivet Discourse by persecuting the Church.




Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.


This is described more specifically in Mark’s Gospel.


Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagoguethem that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

Do we expect a future time when Christians will be delivered up to synagogues to be beaten?


Question 2:

What will be the sign of thy coming (Gk. parousia) and the end of the age?

The disciples asked Jesus 2 questions in the Olivet Discourse and Jesus answered both questions in the Olivet Discourse.
.

 
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Riberra

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No I didn't forget. I can't believe you need verse 15 to figure out what verses 16-17 means.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 NKJV
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a[ shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Okay, here it is. Now, it this coming of the Lord for the church in a rapture or not?
This is the same coming of the Lord announced by all the prophets of the OT and Jesus Himself to occurs in the end time mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31.

You're speculating Riberra. Where in the bible does it say the trumpet sounding is Jesus' voice?
We know that John refers to the voice of Jesus in Revelation 1 as being the Great Sound of a Trumpet that he have heard.

Matthew 24:31 said they are gathered from HEAVEN! How do you gather up when gathering from HEAVEN?
The heaven mentioned in Matthew 24:31 is the first heaven -the earth's sky where the birds fly....Jesus wil be in the air in the sky at His coming .When those who are dead in Christ will resurrect they will be lift up by Jesus in the air
and the angels will gather them with the believers (elect) still alive to meet Jesus to where Jesus will be in the air in the sky...which is Jerusalem.


Matthew 24:31

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(From the four winds ).... from wherever they will be located in the air (first heaven/earth sky/wind)all around the Earth >(From the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.)
 
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Fusion77

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My Bible says the Book of Luke is believed to have been written in the 60's.

You are ignoring the first question in Matthew chapter 24 and also what is plainly revealed in the parallel Gospels study given in my last post.



Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


1. When will these things be?

Jesus had just talked about the destruction of the temple.

In the Book of Acts the Apostle Paul clearly says that he fulfilled part of the Olivet Discourse by persecuting the Church.




Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.


This is described more specifically in Mark’s Gospel.


Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagoguethem that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

Do we expect a future time when Christians will be delivered up to synagogues to be beaten?


Question 2:

What will be the sign of thy coming (Gk. parousia) and the end of the age?

The disciples asked Jesus 2 questions in the Olivet Discourse and Jesus answered both questions in the Olivet Discourse.
.
Even if the gospels were written in the 60's, There's not much time for that to become circulated, or even recognized as scripture. The common person wouldn't have had access to that a couple of years after it was written. There wouldn't have even been copies. It just doesn't make sense.

The beatings and all are still being fulfilled. A synagogue is a place of assembly same as a church now, that's what Jesus would say. Jesus wouldn't use the word church, because the disciples would be like...huh? Synagogue would be the term used to express a place of assembly, as their were no churches. Remember the shootings in an African church.

To me there's no way to explain the abomination of desolation. When Jesus told them to watch for it as a future event and Matthew 24:21 says there would be a great tribulation worse than EVER was or EVER WILL BE. I guess then that would have to mean, the great tribulation is in the past around 70 AD? Or 167 BC?

I do understand though, that Jesus addressed the destruction of the temple.
 
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BABerean2

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I do understand though, that Jesus addressed the destruction of the temple.

In what part of the Olivet Discourse did Jesus discuss the timing of the temple destruction, in your opinion?

Also, what was He talking about in the following passage?



Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,


Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.


Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
(Notice the word "compass" here also.)


Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

.
 
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Fusion77

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In what part of the Olivet Discourse did Jesus discuss the timing of the temple destruction, in your opinion?

Also, what was He talking about in the following passage?



Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,



Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.


Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, (Notice the word "compass" here also.)


Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
.
Ok. So the reason why he wept, is because He was unrecognized as who He was. Because of that they will suffer. If they had accepted Him it all would have been fine. Of course, it wasn't to be.

Luke 21:6 and Matthew 24:2 He speaks of the temple being destroyed.Matthew 24:4-8 would be sufficient, to answer the first part of the question. As this begins the birth pangs... Indicating early stages. I could look at it for a while but basically from Matthew 24:13-31 are exclusive to this end time. Likely Matthew 24:9-12 are end time as well because all nations will ba able to hate christians because of media. NOT ALL nations knew of Christianity then. So I'll give you Matthew 24:4-8, to answer the first question and stops at the beginning of birth pangs. Anything more than that and I have serious doubts. Yes they were delivered up to synagogues, but that's just as, or will be more applicable in this day and age.


What about the great tribulation? 70 AD? Or 167 BC?
 
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Luke17:37

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Even if the gospels were written in the 60's, There's not much time for that to become circulated, or even recognized as scripture. The common person wouldn't have had access to that a couple of years after it was written. There wouldn't have even been copies. It just doesn't make sense.

The beatings and all are still being fulfilled. A synagogue is a place of assembly same as a church now, that's what Jesus would say. Jesus wouldn't use the word church, because the disciples would be like...huh? Synagogue would be the term used to express a place of assembly, as their were no churches. Remember the shootings in an African church.

To me there's no way to explain the abomination of desolation. When Jesus told them to watch for it as a future event and Matthew 24:21 says there would be a great tribulation worse than EVER was or EVER WILL BE. I guess then that would have to mean, the great tribulation is in the past around 70 AD? Or 167 BC?

I do understand though, that Jesus addressed the destruction of the temple.

My friend and I read an article yesterday about how the abomination of desolations both times were preceded by apostasy in the temple (ex. the vision Ezekiel saw of the men with their backs to the temple, worshipping the sun, etc.). We, the Church, are the temple now, they said, so maybe it will somehow come about on the foundation of apostasy in the professing church. Here's the article:

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/51/t/the-abomination-of-desolation
 
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BABerean2

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Ok. So the reason why he wept, is because He was unrecognized as who He was. Because of that they will suffer. If they had accepted Him it all would have been fine. Of course, it wasn't to be.

Luke 21:6 and Matthew 24:2 He speaks of the temple being destroyed.Matthew 24:4-8 would be sufficient, to answer the first part of the question. As this begins the birth pangs... Indicating early stages. I could look at it for a while but basically from Matthew 24:13-31 are exclusive to this end time. Likely Matthew 24:9-12 are end time as well because all nations will ba able to hate christians because of media. NOT ALL nations knew of Christianity then. So I'll give you Matthew 24:4-8, to answer the first question and stops at the beginning of birth pangs. Anything more than that and I have serious doubts. Yes they were delivered up to synagogues, but that's just as, or will be more applicable in this day and age.


What about the great tribulation? 70 AD? Or 167 BC?

Almost all scholars, including Dispensationalists, understand that Luke 21:24 is about 70 AD.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Then look at what leads up to the verse.


Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.


Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:


Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.


Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.


Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.


Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.


Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


( Look at what Jesus said to the women who were crying when He was being led to be crucified.

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.


Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.


Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.


Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? )






Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Notice there is a specification that a gap of time will occur between Luke 21:24 and the next verse.
The last Gentile comes into the Church on the day of Christ's Second Coming.

And below we have Christ's future Second Coming. It is the answer to the second question.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;



Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
.


 
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n2thelight

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Even if the gospels were written in the 60's, There's not much time for that to become circulated, or even recognized as scripture. The common person wouldn't have had access to that a couple of years after it was written. There wouldn't have even been copies. It just doesn't make sense.

The beatings and all are still being fulfilled. A synagogue is a place of assembly same as a church now, that's what Jesus would say. Jesus wouldn't use the word church, because the disciples would be like...huh? Synagogue would be the term used to express a place of assembly, as their were no churches. Remember the shootings in an African church.

To me there's no way to explain the abomination of desolation. When Jesus told them to watch for it as a future event and Matthew 24:21 says there would be a great tribulation worse than EVER was or EVER WILL BE. I guess then that would have to mean, the great tribulation is in the past around 70 AD? Or 167 BC?

I do understand though, that Jesus addressed the destruction of the temple.

The Dual Fulfillment of Prophecy

One of the best examples of dual fulfillment in prophecy is the Olivet Prophecy recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. Events such as the siege of Jerusalem, Antiochus Epiphanes’ sacrifice of a pig on the altar (the Abomination of Desolation) and the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus Flavius are seen as only partial fulfillments of the Olivet Prophecy (which is also predicted in the Book of Daniel). We can clearly see that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a type of the Great Tribulation which will occur in the time immediately preceding the Second Coming of Yeshua Ha’Mashiach (Jesus Christ). Yeshua was actually predicting that the Abomination of Desolation which occurred under Antiochus Epiphanes in which he pronounced himself to be God and defiled the Holy Temple (which when corrected by the Maccabean Revolt resulting in the celebration known as Hanukkah) would occur again during the time of the final Antichrist. Yeshua actually prophesied two events in the Olivet Prophecy. Jerusalem’s destruction was the type, and the Great Tribulation is the antitype

https://sounddoctrineministries.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/the-dual-fulfillment-of-prophecy/
 
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Bible2+

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Psalm3704 said in post 6012:

The FIRST SEAL reveals the antichrist . . .

Regarding the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), note that this could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus physically: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that is able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

Psalm3704 said in post 6012:

--if one comes in HIS OWN NAME (the antichrist), they WILL receive him.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Note that nothing requires that John 5:43b refers to the Antichrist, instead of to an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" whom the Antichrist will "cut" a 7-year peace treaty with (Daniel 9:26a,27a), after the Antichrist defeats him and his followers (Daniel 11:22-23a).

Anyone who receives the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") can never be saved (Revelation 14:9-11), whereas there will be Jews who will be saved after the time of the Antichrist, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26, Zechariah 12:10-14). Therefore, not all Jews will receive the Antichrist. They could survive his reign by hiding from him. And those in Jerusalem could be protected from him by the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3,5).

Psalm3704 said in post 6012:

The BOWLS are NOT the BEGINNING of God’s wrath, but the COMPLETION of it. Revelation 15:1.

Note that none of the "wrath" verses in Revelation chapters 15-16 requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath. For they refer only to the tribulation's final stage, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (or bowls) of God's wrath, which could be the "last" plagues which "fill up" (complete) God's wrath (Revelation 15:1) in relation to the earlier plagues brought on the world by God's 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:6). Also, nothing requires that any of the plagues from God in Revelation 11:6 or Revelation 16 will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth during those times (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15).

Psalm3704 said in post 6012:

NO other time like it since the creation of the world! Matthew 24:21-22.

Note that while Matthew 24:21 does refer to the future, worldwide tribulation like has never affected the whole world before, Matthew 24:21 doesn't require that the future tribulation will be worse for every individual than, for example, Job's personal tribulation, or the Jews' tribulation in the Holocaust, or the tribulation of some people in the early church (e.g. Revelation 2:10). For some people in the church will be protected on the earth during the future tribulation (Revelation 12:6,14-16).

Also, while the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be worse than any prior tribulation (Mark 13:19), it won't be worse in the sense that less than 8 people (cf. 1 Peter 3:20) will survive the tribulation (for millions of people could survive it), but in the sense that the tribulation would leave no survivors at all if its duration hadn't been limited by God (Mark 13:20).

That is, regarding Matthew 24:22, it and Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. That is, the Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the nations at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

Psalm3704 said in post 6012:

At THE END of the “tribulation,” when Jesus ARRIVES at the Armageddon scene, there’s NO mention of A RESURRECTION.

Note that the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the 1st resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Psalm3704 said in post 6012:

In the TRUMP OF GOD passage, for the Church, we are exhorted to “Comfort one another with these words.”

1 Thessalonians 4:13 ¶But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Note that the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, for their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their physical bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they are going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Psalm3704 said in post 6012:

In Numbers 10:1-10, the uses of trumpets are defined.

It is curious that the pre-tribulation-rapture view would look to scriptures given to the 12 tribes of Israel in the time of Moses, in order to try to support itself, when at other times it is at such pains to try to claim that the 12 tribes of Israel can have nothing at all to do with the church. The truth is that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Even though Numbers 10:1-10 (like Leviticus 8:33-36) was given to the 12 tribes of Israel, and the church is the 12 tribes of Israel, note that nothing requires that Numbers 10:1-10 or Leviticus 8:33-36 are prophecies, by type, of the church's future, instead of simply being commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18)

Also, note that nothing in Numbers 10:1-10 or Leviticus 8:33-36 requires, even by type, that the rapture will occur before the tribulation, or that the rapture will take the church any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven), to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

For, by type, the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in Numbers 10:3 and Leviticus 8:33 can represent Christ himself (John 10:7,9), just as Leviticus 8:7-9, by type, refers to our current high priest, who is Christ himself (Hebrews 6:20). And it will be only at the rapture, which will be only after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), that the trumpet of Numbers 10:3, by type, will sound to gather together the church to Christ himself (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) where he will be at his 2nd coming, which will be in the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven), on his way down to the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Zechariah 14:4).

Also, Leviticus 8:33,35 can mean, by type, that the church won't depart from the physical presence of the returned Jesus on the earth for 7 literal days, which could be how long the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 will last. And the marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Psalm3704 said in post 6012:

Some people think the ascension of the “two witnesses” in Revelation 11:12 is the Rapture of the Church.

That idea is mistaken, just as is the idea that the resuscitation of the 2 witnesses is the resurrection of the church. For the future raising of the 2 witnesses' physical bodies from the dead (Revelation 11:11) won't occur at the church's physical resurrection into immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), but will be like, for example, the past resuscitation of the physical bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). And the future, physical ascension of the 2 witnesses into heaven (Revelation 11:12) won't occur at the church's physical rapture at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but will be like, for example, the past ascension of the physical bodies of Elijah and Enoch into heaven (2 Kings 2:11, Hebrews 11:5).

For the 2 witnesses' physical resuscitation and ascension will occur at one point during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, as part of its 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13), before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15). And then out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage (Revelation 16). But the church's physical resurrection into immortality and its being raptured (gathered together to Jesus) won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), which won't occur until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), after the 7th vial has been completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the 2 witnesses, like Elijah and Enoch did (and also like the apostles Paul and John each did, temporarily, at one point during their lifetime: 2 Corinthians 12:2,7, Revelation 4:1-2), will ascend all the way into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 11:12). But the church will be raptured only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Psalm3704 said in post 6012:

The Church will be Raptured in the TWINKLING OF AN EYE.

Note that the only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (if dead) and the changing (if alive) of obedient believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky and the world will mourn when it realizes that the true Jesus is coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ (of all times), who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth where their graves are and their bodies will be physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Psalm3704 said in post 6012:

The SEVEN FEASTS of THE LORD, given to Israel in Leviticus 23:1-44 is God’s TIMETABLE.

Note that all of the Old Covenant feasts can have a New Covenant fulfillment without requiring a pre-tribulation rapture.

For Christ's death was the fulfillment of the Passover (Leviticus 23:5; 1 Corinthians 5:7b), and his resurrection was the fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (1 Corinthians 15:20). The general salvation of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (James 1:18). And the 144,000 part of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits presented to the Lord (Leviticus 23:10b-11, Revelation 14:4b).

The 50 days, firstfruits, and 2 loaves of Leviticus 23:16-17 could have been fulfilled at the Pentecost in Acts 2 and subsequently, when the firstfruits of the Spirit (Romans 8:23) were poured out on (one loaf) the Jews in the church (Acts 2:14-18) and then on (another loaf) the Gentiles in the church (Acts 10:45b).

The feast of trumpets of Leviticus 23:24 could be fulfilled at the 2nd coming, when the 2nd-coming trumpet will sound (Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52) after the 7 trumpets of the tribulation have sounded (Revelation 8:2).

The day of atonement of Leviticus 23:27-28 could be fulfilled when Christ saves all of the elect unbelieving Jews alive at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26-28, Zechariah 12:10-14).

The feast of tabernacles of Leviticus 23:34 could be fulfilled at the marriage feast (Revelation 19:9) which will be on the earth after the 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9). Paul quotes from Isaiah 25:8 in 1 Corinthians 15:54b, showing that the earthly feast of Isaiah 25:6-9 will be connected with the resurrection of the church at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:4-6).

Psalm3704 said in post 6012:

We’ll NOT know the day or the hour when the Church will be Raptured . . .

Note that Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and preterist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the 1st verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

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Coming to know at a certain point in our future the date of Jesus' 2nd coming will help believers to endure patiently during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers. As an analogy, imagine that during a persecution of believers, you are thrown naked into a walk-in freezer. The door is locked and the lights are turned off, and you are just left in there to slowly suffer the freezing cold. You could freak out at this if you have no idea how long you are going to have to be in there. But what if right after they turn the lights off, you see a little light in the corner, and you walk over and see a note on the wall: "You will be let out and set free in 13.35 minutes" (cf. the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12). This would greatly help you to remain calm and hang in there patiently for the whole time, even though you might suffer terribly from the cold. In the same way, knowing exactly when Jesus' 2nd coming will occur (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15) will help believers, during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers, to endure patiently to the end (Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10b).

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Psalm3704 said in post 6014:

This just totally defies logic: people eating, drinking and marrying at the 2nd coming!

Note that Matthew 24:37-41 refers to "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-30).

Matthew 24:37-41 means that the unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it actually happens. For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (of Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9); and the power that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36); and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected 1st battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.
 
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Luke17:37

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Almost all scholars, including Dispensationalists, understand that Luke 21:24 is about 70 AD.


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Then look at what leads up to the verse.


Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.


Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:


Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.


Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.


Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.


Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.


Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


( Look at what Jesus said to the women who were crying when He was being led to be crucified.

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.


Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.


Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.


Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? )






Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Notice there is a specification that a gap of time will occur between Luke 21:24 and the next verse.
The last Gentile comes into the Church on the day of Christ's Second Coming.

And below we have Christ's future Second Coming. It is the answer to the second question.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;



Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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I think a lot of Jesus' response applies to both generations (e.g., the generation that heard the words from Jesus, and the last generation), because the first warning is false Christs/deceptions (seal 1), war/rumors of war (seal 2), famines (seal 3), pestilences (seal 4), earthquakes (seal 6)... martyrdom (seal 5--but not limited to that... Probably over the course of nearly the whole 3.5 years). When I read Revelation, I don't see any of the seals as opened because of the way things are described. So, I think the first generation experienced a mini-tribulation and the last generation endures the Tribulation (the worst time ever). Even as the Jewish Christians fled the Roman armies that destroyed Jerusalem, probably in the future the Judean Christians will flee.

I always thought there is some time when the times of the Gentiles are complete (the last Gentile saved... the rest are hardened against God) and then it's the time of the Jews (only 1% of Jews are Christians today but some day it looks like it will be around 33% per Zechariah 13:8-9).
 
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BABerean2 said in post 6017:

Rome is the city on 7 hills.

That brings to mind that in Revelation 17:9, the 7 mountains (or hills) which support Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" can indeed be the 7 hills of Rome. For at the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD, the Roman empire was the chief support for what Revelation's "Babylon" represents: all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). At the same time, in Revelation 17:9 the 7 mountains can also represent 7 empires (Revelation 17:10). For an empire can be referred to symbolically as a mountain (Jeremiah 51:24-25, Daniel 2:35,44), and what Revelation's "Babylon" represents has been supported by 7 empires: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam.

The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

BABerean2 posted an audio in post 6017:

A WOMAN RIDES THE BEAST - THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH . . .

Note that while the corrupt aspects of the RCC (as of all other churches) are included in what Revelation's symbolic woman "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, she represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the RCC. For the RCC just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the RCC the only institution that buys merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the RCC responsible for the death of all martyrs who have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the RCC just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the RCC been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

BABerean2 posted an audio in post 6017:

A WOMAN RIDES THE BEAST - THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH . . .

Do you also hold to the idea that the Antichrist's religion will be Catholicism?

If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Catholicism in its past and current form, insofar as Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Christ, while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Son of God, while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b). And Catholicism affirms that Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Catholicism affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that the only man who is God is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, while the Antichrist will say that he (the Antichrist) is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that Lucifer (Satan) is evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Catholicism in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), could at first pretend to support Catholicism (as well as Christianity generally, and also Islam), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

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The beast which comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in 2 religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the 2 horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

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If a secretly-apostate pope does become the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20, and Revelation 16:13), adherents of Catholicism will have to decide what their ultimate source of truth is: Is it the pope and the RCC, or God and the Bible? Many adherents of Catholicism who know God and the Bible well and hold to them as their ultimate source of truth will no doubt be utterly aghast at the false doctrines of a False Prophet pope. Such adherents of Catholicism could demand that he be removed for heresy and apostasy, and that the cardinals elect a new pope. But other adherents of Catholicism, including many cardinals, bishops, and priests, could be deceived (along with most of the rest of the world) into believing the False Prophet pope's false doctrines, because of his ability to perform the most amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20; cf. Matthew 24:24).

And so a great schism could arise within the RCC. Compare the Akita prophecy: "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops". Many adherents of Catholicism could follow the False Prophet pope, while other adherents of Catholicism could reject him and eventually even elect their own, new pope (or reinstall a former pope who is still alive), whom they could declare to be the "True pope". But this new (or reinstated), "True pope" could then be murdered, along with many of his followers, by the False Prophet pope's soldiers. Compare the 3rd Secret of Fatima: "he [the pope] was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions". Could the soldiers firing "arrows" be the Vatican's Swiss Guards, whose weapons and colorful uniforms hark back to the Middle Ages?

After this slaughter, the False Prophet pope could manage to retain the papacy and full control of the Vatican, and through his (deceived) cardinals, bishops, and priests, retain full control of all RCC cathedrals, parishes, churches, etc., throughout the world. And when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") obtains power over all nations, he and the False Prophet will make war against true, Biblical Christians (whether they are adherents of Catholicism or not) throughout the world, and will physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the true church (which consists of all true believers, whether they are adherents of Catholicism or not: Ephesians 4:4-6) that the future tribulation will end (Daniel 12:7b) and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

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BABerean2 said in post 6043:

Do we expect a future time when Christians will be delivered up to synagogues to be beaten?

Regarding that idea, Luke 21:12 can refer to long "before" the future, never-fulfilled tribulation of Luke 21, Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Revelation chapters 6-18. That is, the "synagogues" part of Luke 21:12 can refer to the persecution of Christians by Jews in the 1st century AD (e.g. Acts 13:14,45,50, Acts 9:22-23, Acts 17:1-13, Acts 14:1-5, Acts 14:19; 1 Thessalonians 2:14).

But note that Luke 21:12, like Mark 13:9, can include reference to a future Jewish persecution of Christians living in southern Israel (Judaea) during the first half of the future tribulation. They could be beaten in ultra-Orthodox synagogues for trying to preach the gospel there. For, even today, Christian proselytism is outlawed throughout Israel.

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Similarly, Matthew 24:19-20 means that it will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants to flee (Matthew 24:16), just as will be more difficult to flee in the winter or on a sabbath. This would apply in cases where those fleeing don't have cars (or gasoline), and so will have to walk a long way to their place of refuge. For walking a long way will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants, and for anyone at a time of wintry cold and wind, rain, or snow, and for any Christian on the sabbath who believes that to walk a long way on the sabbath is a sin. And by the time that Matthew 24:15-20 is fulfilled in our future, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Judaea (southern Israel) could have reestablished sabbath police there, who could attack with sticks anyone trying to walk a long way on the sabbath.

Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that it is a sin to even turn on a light switch on the sabbath, as they see this as breaking the commandment not to kindle a fire on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). So they could similarly forbid people to start a car on the sabbath, as this would be kindling a fire within its combustion engine. Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews could set up roadblocks to prevent anyone from driving a car anywhere on the sabbath.

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But Matthew 24:20 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath will be in effect (as far as God is concerned) at the future time that Matthew 24:20 is fulfilled. And the parallel verse in Mark 13:18 doesn't mention the sabbath. For some Christians choose to keep the sabbath, while others choose not to keep it (Romans 14:5). The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath hasn't been in effect since Jesus' crucifixion, when, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18)

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BABerean2 said in post 6049:

Almost all scholars, including Dispensationalists, understand that Luke 21:24 is about 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Note that Luke 21:24 wasn't fulfilled by Titus's armies in 70 AD, for it refers to the same, future treading down underfoot (i.e. not merely an outside siege) of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal (and never fulfilled) 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

That is, the treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

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Also, regarding Jerusalem, note that Ezekiel 21:27a could include the meaning that Jerusalem (Ezekiel 21:22) must be overturned, in the sense of completely destroyed, 3 separate times: once in 586 BC (by the Babylonians), then again in 70 AD (by the Romans), and then again at some point in our future (by the Antichrist), right before Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Ezekiel 21:27b).

Also, compare the idea of some people that Amos 9:15 applies to the reestablishment of Israel in 1948 AD, when in fact Amos 9:15 could refer to what will happen only at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11). For Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the taking of the northern kingdom of Israel into captivity (Amos 8:14, Amos 5:27) by the Assyrians in 722 BC. And so Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 586 BC. But Amos 9:14-15 didn't apply to the post-Babylonian-Captivity restoration of the Jews to their land in 538 BC, for that restoration was subsequently destroyed by a Roman-empire army in 70 AD. So Amos 9:14-15 doesn't necessarily apply to the subsequent restoration of the Jews to their land in 1948 AD either. This restoration could be destroyed by the Baathists in a future war (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. Jesus will restore the Davidic kingdom of Israel (Luke 1:32b-33, Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11) at his 2nd coming (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

For Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
 
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FelixDane said in post 6019:

So the 4 Horsemen, are the four winds that drive mans history forward. War, trade, disease and Death itself, are what has driven us as mankind to do what we do and to be where we are.

Actually, the last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to prevent the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, or ISIL, or Daesh) from taking over Iraq, and Syria, and all the rest of the Middle East, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein), to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein's rule), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to defeat Islamic State, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

Indeed, the current military brains of Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand that the Iraqi government has come completely under the thumb of Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current viable bulwark against the Iranians and the Shiites taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. These generals could "defect" from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which with secret Western assistance could completely overthrow the current Iraqi government, which is very weak and corrupt.

Once the Iraqi Baathists take back control, in order to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false Messiah: cf. Matthew 24:24) could completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

FelixDane said in post 6019:

Satan will be a merger of the 2 we know, the False Prophet, and the Beast.

Actually, the beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) isn't Satan, but represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) isn't the False Prophet, for the False Prophet will have power to perform miracles only in the presence of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast from the sea) (Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20), while Satan will be the one who will empower the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), and so also the False Prophet. Also, while Satan and the Antichrist will be worshipped (Revelation 13:4,8), the False Prophet won't be worshipped. Also, the False Prophet and the Antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire over 1,000 years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20 to 20:10). The False Prophet, the Antichrist, and Satan are shown to be 3 separate persons also in Revelation 16:13.

FelixDane said in post 6019:

Satan will be a merger of the 2 we know, the False Prophet, and the Beast.

Note that Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) isn't the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast from the sea), but the one who will empower the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), and who will be worshiped along with the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4). But Satan could spiritually enter the man who is the Antichrist, just as Satan spiritually entered Judas (Luke 22:3).
 
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Postvieww said in post 6020:

I believe we see “the end” described in Rev 6:12-17 . . .

Note that the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-17) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

Postvieww said in post 6020:

I see no conflict with the 3 woes.

There are indeed 3 woes (Revelation 8:13, Revelation 9:12, Revelation 11:14).

The 1st woe is the 5th trumpet, the time of the weird, locust-like creatures (Revelation 8:13 to 9:12).

In Revelation 9:12, the 2nd woe is the 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:13), which Revelation 11:14a shows will include both the weird, horse-like creatures of Revelation 9:17-19 and the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11:3-13.

Revelation 9:13-19 will occur right before, and then Revelation 11:2b-13 will occur during, the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14).

In Revelation 9:12 and Revelation 11:14, the 3rd woe is the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:14-15), which will announce the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). And then out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage, which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

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Postvieww said in post 6024:

The parallels to the AC of the bible to the one Islam is looking for are amazing and far too numerous to list here.

Regarding "the one Islam is looking for", are you thinking of the 12th Imam, also called the Mahdi?

If so, regarding the Muslim "Mahdi", during the Antichrist's rise to power, before he declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36) and begins his 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), if he greatly increases the military and political power of the Arab world, which is mostly Muslim, many Muslims could declare him to be the Mahdi. They could do this even though he won't fulfill most of the detailed Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi. For the Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi aren't scriptural, and so nothing requires that they will all be fulfilled. Also, the Antichrist could reject the solely-human title of the "Mahdi", in his own mind, as being far beneath what he sees as his divinity. And before he declares himself to be God, if he rejects the title of "Mahdi" publicly, he could pretend to do so for humble reasons, saying something like: "Oh, no, I am not the great Mahdi, but a humble peacemaker who wants the best for all Arabs and for all mankind, no matter what religion they may presently follow", etc.

Also, the first person whom Muslims will declare to be the Mahdi may not even be the Antichrist. For before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45), an Iraqi Baathist General could lead an all-out war against Israel which will result in its total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). This Iraqi Baathist General could then be hailed by Muslims worldwide as the Mahdi. But he will subsequently suffer a defeat (perhaps in Algeria), and then he will mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:18-19), so that the Muslims could say that they were mistaken in thinking that he was the Mahdi.

Similarly, years later, when the Antichrist claims to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and starts forcing the world to worship him (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9) and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), if many Muslims had said that he was the Mahdi, some of them could say that they were mistaken. Also, these actions by the Antichrist will result in a fatwa, a death sentence, being issued against him by radical Muslim clerics, which fatwa Islamic terrorists could then try to carry out by waging all-out jihad ("holy war") against the Antichrist. For they hold most strongly to Islam's tenets that no man can be God, that Lucifer/Satan is evil, and that no image can be worshipped. But the terrorist part of Islam (just as even the moderate part of Islam, and just as even public, Biblical Christianity) will eventually be wiped out during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, when everyone (not in hiding) will be forced to either convert to the Antichrist's religion of Gnostic Luciferianism or be killed (Revelation 13:4-18; 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

Also, even though Jews today don't go around killing people for religious reasons, by the time that the Antichrist declares himself to be God, some ultra-Orthodox Jews, led by a miracle-working false "Messiah", might also feel inspired to try to kill the Antichrist for blasphemy, especially when he will commit it (at least one time) even within their own (future) temple (2 Thessalonians 2:4) in Jerusalem, and he will defile that temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in every other religions' holiest shrine and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc. This could result in the radical adherents of every religion becoming so enraged at the Antichrist that they will all attempt to assassinate him. But they will all fail to defeat him, for he won't be defeated until he is cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8-9, Revelation 19:20).

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In Muslim prophecy, besides the Mahdi, there is also "The Masih ad-Dajjal", or "The False Messiah", whom Muslims say will appear in the end times. While Bible prophecy shows that there will be multiple false Messiahs, who will be able to perform amazing miracles (Matthew 24:24), Muslims could focus on one of these, a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Israel, as being "The Masih ad-Dajjal", after he declares himself to be the Messiah but then (with his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers) completely destroys the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, in order to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple.

It could be this destruction of the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, by a man whom the Muslims could declare to be "The Masih ad-Dajjal", which will give rise to the war in which another man, an Arab who could be the first man whom the Muslims will declare to be the Mahdi, will completely defeat and occupy Israel (Daniel 11:15-17).
 
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keras said in post 6031:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:13 means that no man but Jesus had ascended into heaven in a way involving his own power. For Elijah had ascended into heaven, but by an external power (2 Kings 2:11). And if he did that, then Enoch and Moses could have also ascended into heaven by an external power (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24, Jude 1:9). And at one point during the future tribulation, so will the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church, represented by the "man child", be caught up into heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus). And the 2 witnesses will also eventually be taken into heaven (Revelation 11:12). Also, the apostle Paul, at one point during his lifetime, was temporarily taken into heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), just as the apostle John was at one point (Revelation 4).

In John 3:13, "ascended" is in the active voice, which, while it doesn't require that the subject ascended by his own power, it can mean that. For example, compare Jesus "rising up" in Luke 22:45.

Regarding Jesus' post-resurrection ascension, the passive-voice ascension in Acts 1:11 can be taken together with the active voice ascension in Ephesians 4:8 to mean that Jesus' post-resurrection ascension occurred by both an external power and his own power working together at the same time. An analogy would be a man walking up an ascending escalator. But John 3:13 was spoken years before Acts 1:11 occurred. And John 3:13 was referring to a perfect-tense ascension of Jesus, meaning that it had already been completed sometime before John 3:13 was spoken. This prior ascension of Jesus, like his later ascension in Ephesians 4:8 and Acts 1:11, could have involved his own power. For in John 3:13, "ascended" is in the active voice.

keras said in post 6031:

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven.

That's right.

And there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in John 14:2-3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).
 
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iamlamad said in post 6034:

In posttrib theory, they yoyo!

How so? For a yo-yo first goes down, and then goes up.

Do you mean instead that the post-trib view is a "U-turn" theory?

If so, note that there is no "U-turn" theory, not even for post-trib, except for believers who will be living in Jerusalem at the time of the rapture, just as there should be no pre-trib, "bungee-jump" theory, whereby the Lord descends from the 3rd heaven to the 1st heaven (the atmosphere of the earth) (as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), only to immediately snap back up into the 3rd heaven.
 
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Regarding the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), note that this could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus physically: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that is able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).



John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Note that nothing requires that John 5:43b refers to the Antichrist, instead of to an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" whom the Antichrist will "cut" a 7-year peace treaty with (Daniel 9:26a,27a), after the Antichrist defeats him and his followers (Daniel 11:22-23a).

Anyone who receives the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") can never be saved (Revelation 14:9-11), whereas there will be Jews who will be saved after the time of the Antichrist, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26, Zechariah 12:10-14). Therefore, not all Jews will receive the Antichrist. They could survive his reign by hiding from him. And those in Jerusalem could be protected from him by the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3,5).



Note that none of the "wrath" verses in Revelation chapters 15-16 requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath. For they refer only to the tribulation's final stage, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (or bowls) of God's wrath, which could be the "last" plagues which "fill up" (complete) God's wrath (Revelation 15:1) in relation to the earlier plagues brought on the world by God's 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:6). Also, nothing requires that any of the plagues from God in Revelation 11:6 or Revelation 16 will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth during those times (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15).



Note that while Matthew 24:21 does refer to the future, worldwide tribulation like has never affected the whole world before, Matthew 24:21 doesn't require that the future tribulation will be worse for every individual than, for example, Job's personal tribulation, or the Jews' tribulation in the Holocaust, or the tribulation of some people in the early church (e.g. Revelation 2:10). For some people in the church will be protected on the earth during the future tribulation (Revelation 12:6,14-16).

Also, while the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be worse than any prior tribulation (Mark 13:19), it won't be worse in the sense that less than 8 people (cf. 1 Peter 3:20) will survive the tribulation (for millions of people could survive it), but in the sense that the tribulation would leave no survivors at all if its duration hadn't been limited by God (Mark 13:20).

That is, regarding Matthew 24:22, it and Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. That is, the Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the nations at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).



Note that the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the 1st resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).



1 Thessalonians 4:13 ¶But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Note that the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, for their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their physical bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they are going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.



It is curious that the pre-tribulation-rapture view would look to scriptures given to the 12 tribes of Israel in the time of Moses, in order to try to support itself, when at other times it is at such pains to try to claim that the 12 tribes of Israel can have nothing at all to do with the church. The truth is that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Even though Numbers 10:1-10 (like Leviticus 8:33-36) was given to the 12 tribes of Israel, and the church is the 12 tribes of Israel, note that nothing requires that Numbers 10:1-10 or Leviticus 8:33-36 are prophecies, by type, of the church's future, instead of simply being commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18)

Also, note that nothing in Numbers 10:1-10 or Leviticus 8:33-36 requires, even by type, that the rapture will occur before the tribulation, or that the rapture will take the church any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven), to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

For, by type, the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in Numbers 10:3 and Leviticus 8:33 can represent Christ himself (John 10:7,9), just as Leviticus 8:7-9, by type, refers to our current high priest, who is Christ himself (Hebrews 6:20). And it will be only at the rapture, which will be only after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), that the trumpet of Numbers 10:3, by type, will sound to gather together the church to Christ himself (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) where he will be at his 2nd coming, which will be in the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven), on his way down to the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Zechariah 14:4).

Also, Leviticus 8:33,35 can mean, by type, that the church won't depart from the physical presence of the returned Jesus on the earth for 7 literal days, which could be how long the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 will last. And the marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).



That idea is mistaken, just as is the idea that the resuscitation of the 2 witnesses is the resurrection of the church. For the future raising of the 2 witnesses' physical bodies from the dead (Revelation 11:11) won't occur at the church's physical resurrection into immortality at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), but will be like, for example, the past resuscitation of the physical bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). And the future, physical ascension of the 2 witnesses into heaven (Revelation 11:12) won't occur at the church's physical rapture at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but will be like, for example, the past ascension of the physical bodies of Elijah and Enoch into heaven (2 Kings 2:11, Hebrews 11:5).

For the 2 witnesses' physical resuscitation and ascension will occur at one point during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, as part of its 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13), before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15). And then out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage (Revelation 16). But the church's physical resurrection into immortality and its being raptured (gathered together to Jesus) won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), which won't occur until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), after the 7th vial has been completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the 2 witnesses, like Elijah and Enoch did (and also like the apostles Paul and John each did, temporarily, at one point during their lifetime: 2 Corinthians 12:2,7, Revelation 4:1-2), will ascend all the way into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 11:12). But the church will be raptured only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).



Note that the only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (if dead) and the changing (if alive) of obedient believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky and the world will mourn when it realizes that the true Jesus is coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ (of all times), who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth where their graves are and their bodies will be physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).



Note that all of the Old Covenant feasts can have a New Covenant fulfillment without requiring a pre-tribulation rapture.

For Christ's death was the fulfillment of the Passover (Leviticus 23:5; 1 Corinthians 5:7b), and his resurrection was the fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (1 Corinthians 15:20). The general salvation of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (James 1:18). And the 144,000 part of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits presented to the Lord (Leviticus 23:10b-11, Revelation 14:4b).

The 50 days, firstfruits, and 2 loaves of Leviticus 23:16-17 could have been fulfilled at the Pentecost in Acts 2 and subsequently, when the firstfruits of the Spirit (Romans 8:23) were poured out on (one loaf) the Jews in the church (Acts 2:14-18) and then on (another loaf) the Gentiles in the church (Acts 10:45b).

The feast of trumpets of Leviticus 23:24 could be fulfilled at the 2nd coming, when the 2nd-coming trumpet will sound (Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52) after the 7 trumpets of the tribulation have sounded (Revelation 8:2).

The day of atonement of Leviticus 23:27-28 could be fulfilled when Christ saves all of the elect unbelieving Jews alive at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26-28, Zechariah 12:10-14).

The feast of tabernacles of Leviticus 23:34 could be fulfilled at the marriage feast (Revelation 19:9) which will be on the earth after the 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9). Paul quotes from Isaiah 25:8 in 1 Corinthians 15:54b, showing that the earthly feast of Isaiah 25:6-9 will be connected with the resurrection of the church at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:4-6).



Note that Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and preterist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the 1st verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

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Coming to know at a certain point in our future the date of Jesus' 2nd coming will help believers to endure patiently during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers. As an analogy, imagine that during a persecution of believers, you are thrown naked into a walk-in freezer. The door is locked and the lights are turned off, and you are just left in there to slowly suffer the freezing cold. You could freak out at this if you have no idea how long you are going to have to be in there. But what if right after they turn the lights off, you see a little light in the corner, and you walk over and see a note on the wall: "You will be let out and set free in 13.35 minutes" (cf. the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12). This would greatly help you to remain calm and hang in there patiently for the whole time, even though you might suffer terribly from the cold. In the same way, knowing exactly when Jesus' 2nd coming will occur (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15) will help believers, during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers, to endure patiently to the end (Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10b).

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Note that Matthew 24:37-41 refers to "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-30).

Matthew 24:37-41 means that the unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it actually happens. For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (of Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9); and the power that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36); and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected 1st battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

Bible2, are you never gonna produce one piece of evidence for a post tribulation rapture? Copying and pasting premade rebuttals against a pre tribulation doesn't produce much evidence for a post tribulation rapture. You have to prove your belief exist, not attempt to disprove other's belief.

Here's a short cut to save all the troubles. There's only ONE rapture. If a post tribulation rapture can be proven, than there can NOT be a pre, mid or prewrath rapture. Ever thought of that?

"50 Reasons for a Pre Tribulation Rapture!"

1. The argument that the Rapture isn’t found in the Bible is false.

2. Rapture is from the Latin “rapere” or “rapturo” which is INDEED found in the Latin Vulgate Version of the Bible. It’s from this Latin root that we get our English word “raptor.” A raptor (eagle, osprey, hawk, owl) swoops down from above to suddenly “snatch up” its dinner with force. In the rapture, Jesus will descend into the air and suddenly “snatch up” His Church to Himself with THE FORCE of His words, “Come up here” (which is seen in Revelation 4:1).

3. The Greek word for the Rapture is “harpazo” which is translated as “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The literal definition of “harpazo” is to catch up and away, to pluck up, to take by force.

4. While “the word” Rapture is not found in our English translations of the Bible, it is INDEED there as “caught up” and in THE ACTION displayed IN that event!

5. The famous Rapture scriptures are these: the promise of it in John 14:1-3, the Old Testament description of it in Isaiah 26:19-20, Paul’s teachings upon it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.

6. The ACTIONS shown in Revelation 4:1 is a TYPE of the Rapture, present in the DISPLAYED ACTION, and IN the SEQUENCE of events--(occurring AFTER the testimony of the SEVEN CHURCHES in Revelation 2:1-29 and Revelation 3:1-22). “After” is DECLARED TWICE in Revelation 4:1 --“After these things” and “hereafter.” AFTER what things? AFTER the ministry of the SEVEN CHURCHES. When the “plain sense” makes “perfect sense” seek “no other sense.”


7. Israel, and the Jewish Pharisees, at the time of Jesus did NOT recognize their promised Messiah when Jesus presented Himself to them. Why? They didn’t differentiate between their own prophecies which show the TWO COMINGS OF JESUS.

8. In Jesus’ FIRST COMING, He arrived on earth as the SUFFERING Messiah. Isaiah 53:2-10. Psalms 22:6-8 and Psalms 11:1-18.

9. In Jesus’ SECOND COMING, He’ll arrive on earth as a CONQUERING and REIGNING King. Psalms 2:6-12. Zechariah 12:9 and Zechariah 9:16.

10. Jews, who studied the scripture (as if they had a microscope) missed this. When Jesus did not FIT THEIR IDEA of a KING, they rejected Him. How could that be? How could they have missed it? TWO REASONS: (a.) They had PRECONCEIVED IDEAS of what to expect. (b.) They “studied” scripture with NATURAL UNDERSTANDING (the corrupt mind of the flesh--which is AT ENMITY--and hostile to God. Romans 8:7-8and 2 Corinthians 2:9-14). The religious leaders continually tried to TRAP Jesus, and He rebuked them often, which further infuriated them. (Matthew 12:1-50 is the classic example of their blindness.) The “religious” people could NOT see Who Jesus really was. When Jesus said “I AM” (the Hebrew equivalent of God’s name-- Luke 22:70), and said that they would see Him sitting at the right hand of God, the Father (Matthew 26:64), they tore their clothes and accused Him of blasphemy! This led to His crucifixion, exactly as the scriptures prophesied. The “religious leaders” in Israel were “instrumental” in (helping) to fulfill their own prophecies.

11. Today, people also study the scriptures with their NATURAL UNDERSTANDING (without the Light of the Holy Spirit). They have PRECONCEIVED IDEAS of HOW the prophecies will be fulfilled. Many do NOT see the Second Coming of Jesus as happening in stages.

12. Stage ONE is The Rapture of the Church, when Jesus descends into the air to call His Church up to Himself. Stage TWO is the Second Coming, when the feet of Jesus actually touch the earth.

13. 1 Corinthians 15:22-25 CLARIFIES the STAGES, by showing us STAGES of the First Resurrection.

14. (a.) Christ is the FIRSTFRUITS of those who RISE from the dead. This happened on the Feast of Firstfruits, three days AFTER Jesus died.

15. (b.) “Afterward, they that are Christ’s at His Coming.” This is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

16. (c.) THEN COMES THE END--in which the Kingdom of God will be established at the start of the Millennium. “For He (Jesus) MUST REIGN--till He has put ALL ENEMIES under His feet”--(during the Millennium). According to the structure of 1 Corinthians 15:22-25, AFTER “the tribulation” is DONE, a THIRD STAGE of the First Resurrection will occur so that some saints can enter the Millennium in their glorified flesh. These are the tribulation saints-- Revelation 20:4. And the Old Testament saints-- Job 19:25-26.

17. The SEQUENCE of 1 Corinthians 15:22-25 clearly SHOW a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church! When the “plain sense” makes “perfect sense” seek “no other sense.”

18. DETAILS of The Rapture and the Second Coming are VERY DIFFERENT and CANNOT be the same event! We must RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word of God! 2 Timothy 2:15.

19. There’s a DISTINCTION between the Church and Israel. Acts 15:14-15. Romans 11:25-27.

20. To suggest that the Church will remain on earth for the tribulation CONFUSES the message of Daniel’s 70th week, and causes the Church TO RECEIVE what was APPOINTED to Israel and their Holy City.

21. The UNITY of Daniel’s 70th week is MAINTAINED by the Pre-Trib view. By contrast, the Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath views DESTROY that unity and CONFUSES God’s PROGRAM for Israel with that of the Church.

22. The Post-Trib view denies the clear teaching of the 70th week by subjecting the literal prophecy to one form or another of allegory. It gives Israel’s destiny to the Church!

23. In the 70th week (during the “tribulation”) as prophesied in Zechariah 13:8-9--TWO-THIRDS of Israel will NOT SURVIVE, but will PERISH. A THIRD part of them will come through THE FIRE of that time, REFINED like silver and gold, and will SAY that the Lord is their God. It’s NOT the Church who will be refined by that terrible judgment!

24. The PROPHECY for ISRAEL clearly says, “Seventy weeks are DETERMINED upon your people (Daniel’s people--Israel) and upon your Holy City (Jerusalem).” Daniel 9:24. There is NO MENTION of the Church.

25. The Church Age fits into a PARENTHESIS that happens between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week.

26. God STOPPED Israel’s CLOCK in order for the Church Age to happen. God won’t RESTART Israel’s CLOCK until the after Church Age is finished.

27. The dispensation of Israel (under the law) was INTERRUPTED by the dispensation of God’s Grace through the Church. When the dispensation of GRACE in the Church is complete, then God will RESUME and FINISH the INTERRUPTED dispensation of His law in Israel. Clearly shown by the GAP between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel 9:24-27.

28. Yes, there are DISPENSATIONS in God’s dealing with mankind during the millennia. (I mention this because many people OBJECT to the idea of God having separate programs, especially for the Church and Israel.) A “dispensation” is defined as God’s MANNER OF WORKING as He performs His ADMINISTRATION, overseeing various groups of people throughout the scripture. He has dealt with VARIOUS groups in DIFFERING means of ADMINISTRATION. We can SEE it by paying CAREFUL attention to what’s recorded in the whole Bible. Dispensations are CLEARLY mentioned in 1 Corinthians 9:17,Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2 and Colossians 1:25-26.

29. The tribulation (all 7 years of it) is distinctly JEWISH in nature.

30. In the Church, there is NEITHER Jew or Gentile, but ALL are ONE in Christ’s BODY. Ephesians 2:11-22.Galatians 3:28.

31. Yet in the tribulation, there IS a distinction. Revelation 7:1-17 --144,000 sealed servants from the twelve tribes of Israel. Jeremiah 30:7 --which speaks of the tribulation as “Jacob’s trouble.”

32. During the chapters of Revelation which gives DETAILS about the tribulation, the Church is not mentioned--not even ONCE. From Revelation 6 through Revelation 18.

33. The Church is the KEY player (sharing the Gospel) from Acts to Jude.

34. The Church is KEY player in Revelation 1 to 5, AND is seen again in Revelation 19 to 22.

35. There’s an ABSENCE of TEACHING about the TRIBULATION in KEY “Church-related” Bible passages. That’s why there is NO INSTRUCTION given to the Church on how to LIVE THROUGH the tribulation. BECAUSE the Church will NOT need to know HOW TO SURVIVE the tribulation. The Church will NOT be in it!

36. When ISRAEL was CENTRAL in the Old Testament, the Church was a MYSTERY.

37. When Israel was the CENTRAL FOCUS in the Gospels, the Church is virtually unmentioned.

38. When the CHURCH is the FOCUS in Acts through Jude, ISRAEL is NOT mentioned (EXCEPT when the Apostles told THE CHURCH to NOT to deem themselves better--ISRAEL will be grafted back in. PLUS there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) in the CHURCH, but ALL are the BODY OF CHRIST).

39. The Church is CENTRAL in Revelation 1 to 3 (mentioned 19 times), and is also seen in Revelation 4 and 5 in the description of the 24 elders. Israel is NOT mentioned in those first chapters.

40. When Israel is in FOCUS IN Revelation 6 to 18, the Church is NOT mentioned.

41. Only when God’s PURPOSE for BOTH the Church and Israel is finished--then God SPEAKS of them TOGETHER. Revelation 19 to 22.

42. There are NO passages in either the Old or New Testament which SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will go through the tribulation. (Try to find where it SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will be IN the tribulation--it can’t be found!)

43. The tribulation is called THE TIME of “Jacob’s Trouble” Jeremiah 30:7. The tribulation is NEVER called the time of “The Church’s Trouble.”

44. The Church has NO PART in the first 69 weeks of Daniel’s prophecy, and it will have NO PART in the final 70th week either!

45. The GODLY REMNANT of the tribulation have descriptions and attributes upon them--THE SAME as seen upon Old Testament ISRAEL. The Church is NOT present during that time--there are NO “Church-related descriptions” upon tribulation saints.

46. THE Pre-Trib view (UNLIKE Mid-Trib, Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath), does NOT CONFUSE terms like “elect” and “saints” OF THE TRIBULATION with the Church. Terms like CHURCH and IN CHRIST apply ONLY to those who are IN the BODY OF CHRIST in THIS AGE, and these terms are NEVER found in passages which relate to the tribulation.

47. Israel is NOT cut-off from the COVENANTS that God gave them. But blindness (in part) will be their destiny UNTIL the Church is complete. Acts 15:14-16. Romans 11:1 and Romans 11:25-27.

48. Many prophecies have the characteristic of showing a LOCAL fulfillment (AT or NEAR the time when it was given), then they JUMP AHEAD to the TIME OF THE END--when they are COMPLETELY fulfilled.

49. These are known as PARTIAL FULFILLMENT'S or DUAL FULFILLMENT'S--which are NOTHING UNUSUAL in the scripture.

50. EXAMPLE ONE: In Daniel 11:1-45, the prophecy discusses IN DETAIL the Greek Empire, Alexander the Great, the breaking of the Greek Empire into four parts, wars between kings of the south (Egypt, the Ptolemies) and kings of the north (Syria, the Seleucids), and the arrival of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (a powerful TYPE of the Antichrist). In the middle of showing THE WORK of Antiochus Epiphanes, the prophecy SKIPS to THE END, to focus upon the “ultimate antichrist” (from verses Daniel 11:36-45).











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Psalm3704

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How so? For a yo-yo first goes down, and then goes up.

That's not a post trib rapture. The post trib rapture goes up first then down.

















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OH WAIT!!!!

My bad. A Post Trib rapture does go down first then back up. They gather from heaven, go down than back up to heaven. Okay for once you're right.....by a post tribber's definition of a rapture.

Amazing! For once you didn't copy and paste and actually got something right.






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Fusion77

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The Dual Fulfillment of Prophecy

One of the best examples of dual fulfillment in prophecy is the Olivet Prophecy recorded in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. Events such as the siege of Jerusalem, Antiochus Epiphanes’ sacrifice of a pig on the altar (the Abomination of Desolation) and the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus Flavius are seen as only partial fulfillments of the Olivet Prophecy (which is also predicted in the Book of Daniel). We can clearly see that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a type of the Great Tribulation which will occur in the time immediately preceding the Second Coming of Yeshua Ha’Mashiach (Jesus Christ). Yeshua was actually predicting that the Abomination of Desolation which occurred under Antiochus Epiphanes in which he pronounced himself to be God and defiled the Holy Temple (which when corrected by the Maccabean Revolt resulting in the celebration known as Hanukkah) would occur again during the time of the final Antichrist. Yeshua actually prophesied two events in the Olivet Prophecy. Jerusalem’s destruction was the type, and the Great Tribulation is the antitype

https://sounddoctrineministries.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/the-dual-fulfillment-of-prophecy/
Right, at best dual fulfillment.
 
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