Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Root of Jesse]

Oh, they're very common. The Marian doctrines are good examples. Anything that's said of Eve is transferred to and applied to Mary, even though they don't apply to her. But she's the 'New Eve,' you see, so that's a blank check for comparing the two women in EVERY way.

Not in every way...Mary didn't sin. She obeyed God to the end of her life. Eve didn't.

Since she carried Jesus for nine months, she's been predicted by the Ark of the Covenant. They both carried God, so.... That's "carried" in quite different ways, but no matter.

No, she is likened to the Ark. All three elements of both. Bread of Life, Word of God, Staff of priesthood.

You gave us one example yourself a little while ago by saying that when Gabriel said "Hail, full of grace" -- which even Catholic Bibles translate as "Found favor with God" -- you compare her to a gas tank and, volia -- there's no room in a spacial sense "in her" for sin, as though it comes in gallons and is stored in us sinners.

Translations are...translations. The word means 'full of Grace'.

The examples are many. We hear them here all the time (depending on the thread, of course).

 

[patricius79]

The Holy Spirit takes up His abode in every John, or Margaret if they have come to believe in Christ. That is how anyone is to discern the truth from falsehood. It's certainly not from useless debates on a forum.

I agree that the Holy Spirit takes up His abode in everyone who believes in Christ. I think that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth not in an individualistic way, but as members of the Body of Christ, which we are baptized into by the Holy Spirit. I think he Holy Spirit doesn't guarantee that all our private interpretations of things or of Scripture are correct, but He does gradually guide us into all Truth, to the extent we choose to follow Him, through the intercession of the Mother of God.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

We believe Jesus when he said his Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit in ALL TRUTH.

So how do you KNOW that what the the church says is truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and not said for more insidious purposes?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well I personally don't think it is fair to say that Catholics are practicing idolatry. I believe they are simply told what to believe and to believe it without question. Even if it does contradict the bible. Because "the Church teaches that 'the bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ." [LG 20 # 2.] Catholic Catechism, par. 862

Translation : if you don't believe us you don't believe God.

This would be a misunderstanding. Many Catholics believe because they study what the Church teaches. There you go again, mischaracterizing a billion people...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Did anyone read my history lesson on the Catholic church on #2520? Please don't take my word for it. I would invite anyone to do a fact check on it. I am curious to hear what anyone has to say. It only shakes the entire motives and foundation of the Catholic church thus proving that Scriptura is the only legitimate foundation for a christian.

Why bother. IT's false.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

If you didn't read what Pope Francis said from his own mouth, you heard wrong. But it's true that Muslims could be saved if they convert, is it not? As long as they're alive, they have the possibility, or have you just written off all Muslims? The same is true for non-Catholics.

So if I am not catholic I am going to hell? Or is it just Muslims who don't convert to Catholicism going to hell?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

What are the cursades?
And what's wrong with having a judicial system, biblically?

Typo sorry.

 

[Fireinfolding]

John told them (little children) that they didnt need any man to teach them and to abide in him

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Shorthand version

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I agree that the Holy Spirit takes up His abode in everyone who believes in Christ. I think that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth not in an individualistic way, but as members of the Body of Christ, which we are baptized into by the Holy Spirit. I think he Holy Spirit doesn't guarantee that all our interpretations of things or of Scripture are correct, but He does gradually guide us into all Truth.

I agree but that doesn't take the onus off of our responsibilty to study scripture OT & NT because the HS can't bring to mind what hasn't been stored there. The disciples knew the scripture that was availble to them at the time. they didn't stand about argueing the source of scripture... it was there's to aquint themselves with and that they took seriously.
As Christ is lifted up the whole body is lifted up with Him and we are all coming into the fullman as one. Many like to drag progression down and stall it at nonessentials tho.

 

[Fireinfolding]

So, you're critical of how people honor the mother of God...we can be critical of all sorts of things, but who are we to judge? I won't judge how you worship.

Observant that the woman as shown in scripture is no where near as over the top in blessing "she that bear him"

He is the judge, I just feel he judged her rightly, as she was (by her own words) honoring the creature above the Creator

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

What are the cursades?
And what's wrong with having a judicial system, biblically?

The point about the crusades is that the pope said that anyone who gives up their wealth and opsessions and fights against the Muslims will "be completely absolved from all sin" which basically told them that they could do whatever they wanted (kill, rape, ect) and they would have a guaranteed ticket to heaven. If you do not agree with this statement from the pope that proves that the pope has the capability to use his "absolute infallibility " to manipulate the masses for other purposes. So if the pope is capable of doing such a thing how do you absolutely know for sure they didn't do it elsewhere.

With the inquisition, the pope basically gave the OK to execute anyone who did not convert to Catholicism which in my opinion no different than what Muslim jihadists have been doing. Once again. If you do not agree with this decision from the church that proves that the pope has the capability to use his "absolute infallibility " to manipulate the masses for other purposes. So if the pope is capable of doing such a thing how do you absolutely know for sure they didn't do it elsewhere.

The bible actually has a very clear instructions on identification of false prophets. I am sure you know this process.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

You lie like the Father of Lies....

Now you are comparing me to Satan! These are not my words! Do a fact check on them. I beg you to verify it outside the bias of the "catholic encyclopedia". Prove me wrong. Please!

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Holy Spirit takes up His abode in every John, or Margaret if they have come to believe in Christ. That is how anyone is to discern the truth from falsehood. It's certainly not from useless debates on a forum.

Not in the same way. We're all given gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is given the gift of infallibility, and the Bishops who are in communion with him have the same gift.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Why bother. IT's false.

Once again, prove it!

 

[Albion]

Not in the same way. We're all given gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is given the gift of infallibility, and the Bishops who are in communion with him have the same gift.

They'll be interested to hear that, considering that the Roman Church doesn't teach that any bishop is infallible merely by being in communion with the bishop of Rome, let alone that this is one of the "gifts of the Holy Spirit."

 

[civilwarbuff]

Spare me the bluster of your empty threats. It has nothing to do with your heart or its intentions. It has everything to do with one of you denying Mary is worshipped. So man up to your own church's doctrine, and definitions.

So, for 18 years you worshipped Mary, you were an idolator. And in those 18 years no one ever told you or you never heard or read that you don't worship Mary but ask for her intercession on your behalf?...I mean there is a difference that even a Protestant such as myself can understand.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Not in the same way. We're all given gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is given the gift of infallibility, and the Bishops who are in communion with him have the same gift.

No no no no, you confuse Grace with the term used for your leaders by which you call them your grace and place other natural humans in the place of Grace.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Why bother. IT's false.

Ever wonder why the Catholic church decided to have Christmas fall on December 25th? It wasn't because it was the day Christ was born. I will give you a hint, Saturnalia, the Roman pagan holiday that fell on the winter solstice to worship Saturn.

Btw... holly, mistletoe, yule logs, and caroling have pagan origins as well.

 

[Albion]

So what? So also does singing during worship services and praising God(s).

 

[patricius79]

I agree but that doesn't take the onus off of our responsibilty to study scripture OT & NT

I agree. I think that's why at every Mass there is a reading from the Old Testament, also from the Psalms, also from the Epistles, then from the Gospel, so that people are given the chance to see the continuity of Revelation. However there can be various reasons why a person cannot make a systematic study of the Scriptures. One of them is lack of intelligence, another is the depth and complexity of Scripture. As I understand it, for much of Christian history, there was no printing press, Bibles were extremely expensive therefore, and most Christians were illiterate. So they received the Word of God mostly orally and through picture depicting the main events in Christ's life, like the Christians in the N.T.

because the HS can't bring to mind what hasn't been stored there.

I think that's true in some sense. However, I think the early Church and the Apostles, etc, interpreted the Bible much more allegorically and mystically than we do. They didn't demand explicit texts the way we do. I've seen many examples of the way they interpret the Bible very allegorically/mystically, though I can't remember many of them right now. They also didn't quote Scripture exactly, if I remember right. I know that one example is in Galatians 4 where Paul interprets Sarah and Hagar as symbols of the New and Old Covenants. Another example is where Christ says it is written in Scripture that "whoever believes, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water". (I think that's in John 7 unless I'm mistaken) Apparently there is no such O.T verse. Christ is apparently referring to Ezekiel who talks about the river of living water that will flow out of the temple, which symbolizes the Body of Christ. When Catholics quote Scripture like this they are derided. But that's how Christ and the Apostles did, appaently.

The disciples knew the scripture that was availble to them at the time. they didn't stand about argueing the source of scripture... it was there's to aquint themselves with and that they took seriously.

I think they didn't stand around arguing about the source of Scripture because they knew it was the oral Word. Yes, they took the Bible seriously. But they didn't go by the Bible alone. They went by interpreting the O.T. mystically in light of what they were seeing and hearing from the Incarnate God, Jesus Christ.

As Christ is lifted up the whole body is lifted up with Him and we are all coming into the fullman as one. Many like to drag progression down and stall it at nonessentials tho.

I think we disagree on what essentials are. There are many possible Biblical interpretations, which is why I think we need the authority of the historic Church. For example, there is only one list of essentials that I know of in the Bible. It is in Hebrews somewhere. Here it is Hebrews 6:1, Hebrews 6:2. It says that one of the "foundational" doctrines is instructions about laying on of hands. This is listed right along with faith in God and the Resurrection. Now I, as a Catholic, believe it is referring to the Sacrament of the Seal of the Holy Spirit (Confirmation). Others would not agree with that. And very few are even preaching this Biblical word of God (that instructions about laying on of hands is fundamental Christian doctrine).