Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Root of Jesse]

So as long as you desire to be baptized it's good enough?

We leave it up to God to decide.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Sounds like the Catholic Church is built on "Assumptions" that cannot be justified other than just having blind faith that the pope is telling the truth.

We believe Jesus when he said his Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit in ALL TRUTH.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Because they sacrifice Jesus every Mass with the Eucharist.

Error! Warning! Will Robinson. We do not sacrifice Jesus at every Mass.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Instead of Adam and Eve, you pick David's spoiled son, as example.
It would be sad if it wasn't devious.

The Bible is just as explicit about the Trinity.

Right. It's not explicit at all, otherwise every Christian would believe the doctrine of the Trinity.
Therefore, YOU are not right... on more than one level.[/QUOTE]

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

We believe Jesus when he said his Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit in ALL TRUTH.

Again what is the church except it be those to whom the Spirit is given. The Spirit says it guides by bringing to mind "25"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

which the disciples refer to as scripture!

John 2:22
After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

John 12:16
At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No Pope Frank is on fire for his agenda...

Which is "Go out and baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirt." In other words, on fire for Jesus. Thanks for making my point.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It is all worship, distinguished merely by degree. Stop pretending it isn't.

So, it's the same problem you have with anything Marian. It's not that we honor her, it's how much. Who are you to judge?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I hear the pope gave the OK on Muslims. They can be saved despite the fact they reject Christ. Ironic because the church believes it is the one true church and if you are not catholic you risk going to hell. Oh well. All non-Catholics (except Muslims) are likely going to hell.

If you didn't read what Pope Francis said from his own mouth, you heard wrong. But it's true that Muslims could be saved if they convert, is it not? As long as they're alive, they have the possibility, or have you just written off all Muslims? The same is true for non-Catholics.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

This is about the closest thing to a "personal attack" antletems is going to get..

What would you call someone who tries to attack and refute someone's religious beliefs and the feel like they are a victim being picked on when they get retaliation? ??
I have a word for it but I am just curious what you would say.

That wasn't a personal attack it was an observation.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Two main reason that prove the pope and the church are not infallable.

1. The cursades.
2. The inquisition.

What are the cursades?
And what's wrong with having a judicial system, biblically?

 

[patricius79]

Agape and eros both refer to love, but they're two different kinds of love. English word "worship" is not adequate to describe the kind of worship. We hyperdulia Mary, we latria God.

As someone who believes that the Bible is part of the Word of God, which is Catholic Tradition, I find the evidence for Marian veneration to be strong, historically. The Bible explicitly says that Mary conceived Jesus (Luke 1:31) with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). It explicitly calls Mary "the Mother of Jesus". And the Bible is clear that Jesus is God (John 20:28). One can hardly say anything more in honor of Mary that is more honorific than that. She is the Mother of Jesus! Also the Holy Spirit and Elizabeth cry out, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of they womb! And how can it be that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?". This is apparently a quotation from 2 Samuel 6:9, indicating that Mary is the New Ark. Moreover as far as Tradition, already in the 100s, the Church fathers were openly seeing Eve as a type of Mary, the New Eve, who is the cause of our salvation (by the grace of Christ, her Son), whereas Eve was the cause of our downfall.

 

[Root of Jesse]

A brief history of the catholic church.

The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately AD 30. The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the church that Jesus Christ died for, the church that was established and built by the apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?

For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine provided religious toleration with the Edict of Milan in AD 313, effectively lifting the ban on Christianity. Later, in AD 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.

Constantine found that, with the Roman Empire being so vast, expansive, and diverse, not everyone would agree to forsake his or her religious beliefs to embrace Christianity. So, Constantine allowed, and even promoted, the “Christianization” of pagan beliefs. Completely pagan and utterly unbiblical beliefs were given new “Christian” identities. Some clear examples of this are as follows:

(1) The Cult of Isis, an Egyptian mother-goddess religion, was absorbed into Christianity by replacing Isis with Mary. Many of the titles that were used for Isis, such as “Queen of Heaven,” “Mother of God,” and theotokos (“God-bearer”) were attached to Mary. Mary was given an exalted role in the Christian faith, far beyond what the Bible ascribes to her, in order to attract Isis worshippers to a faith they would not otherwise embrace. Many temples to Isis were, in fact, converted into temples dedicated to Mary. The first clear hints of Catholic Mariology occur in the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened to be the focal point of Isis worship.

(2) Mithraism was a religion in the Roman Empire in the 1st through 5th centuries AD. It was very popular among the Romans, especially among Roman soldiers, and was possibly the religion of several Roman emperors. While Mithraism was never given “official” status in the Roman Empire, it was the de facto official religion until Constantine and succeeding Roman emperors replaced Mithraism with Christianity. One of the key features of Mithraism was a sacrificial meal, which involved eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a bull. Mithras, the god of Mithraism, was “present” in the flesh and blood of the bull, and when consumed, granted salvation to those who partook of the sacrificial meal (this is known as theophagy, the eating of one’s god). Mithraism also had seven “sacraments,” making the similarities between Mithraism and Roman Catholicism too many to ignore. Church leaders after Constantine found an easy substitute for the sacrificial meal of Mithraism in the concept of the Lord’s Supper/Christian communion. Even before Constantine, some early Christians had begun to attach mysticism to the Lord’s Supper, rejecting the biblical concept of a simple and worshipful remembrance of Christ’s death and shed blood. The Romanization of the Lord’s Supper made the transition to a sacrificial consumption of Jesus Christ, now known as the Catholic Mass/Eucharist, complete.

(3) Most Roman emperors (and citizens) were henotheists. A henotheist is one who believes in the existence of many gods, but focuses primarily on one particular god or considers one particular god supreme over the other gods. For example, the Roman god Jupiter was supreme over the Roman pantheon of gods. Roman sailors were often worshippers of Neptune, the god of the oceans. When the Catholic Church absorbed Roman paganism, it simply replaced the pantheon of gods with the saints. Just as the Roman pantheon of gods had a god of love, a god of peace, a god of war, a god of strength, a god of wisdom, etc., so the Catholic Church has a saint who is “in charge” over each of these, and many other categories. Just as many Roman cities had a god specific to the city, so the Catholic Church provided “patron saints” for the cities.

(4) The supremacy of the Roman bishop (the papacy) was created with the support of the Roman emperors. With the city of Rome being the center of government for the Roman Empire, and with the Roman emperors living in Rome, the city of Rome rose to prominence in all facets of life. Constantine and his successors gave their support to the bishop of Rome as the supreme ruler of the church. Of course, it is best for the unity of the Roman Empire that the government and state religion be centralized. While most other bishops (and Christians) resisted the idea of the Roman bishop being supreme, the Roman bishop eventually rose to supremacy, due to the power and influence of the Roman emperors. When the Roman Empire collapsed, the popes took on the title that had previously belonged to the Roman emperors—Pontifex Maximus.

Many more examples could be given. These four should suffice in demonstrating the origin of the Catholic Church. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church denies the pagan origin of its beliefs and practices. The Catholic Church disguises its pagan beliefs under layers of complicated theology and “church tradition.” Recognizing that many of its beliefs and practices are utterly foreign to Scripture, the Catholic Church is forced to deny the authority and sufficiency of Scripture.

The origin of the Catholic Church is the tragic compromise of Christianity with the pagan religions that surrounded it. Instead of proclaiming the gospel and converting the pagans, the Catholic Church “Christianized” the pagan religions, and “paganized” Christianity. By blurring the differences and erasing the distinctions, yes, the Catholic Church made itself attractive to the people of the Roman Empire. One result was the Catholic Church becoming the supreme religion in the Roman world for centuries. However, another result was the most dominant form of Christianity apostatizing from the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the true proclamation of God’s Word.

Second Timothy 4:3–4 declares, “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

You lie like the Father of Lies....

 

[Fireinfolding]

I didnt think that woman which blessed the womb that bore him (or the God bearer womb) or the paps (Hers) that he sucked was anywhere near as over the top as what goes on today

 

[Root of Jesse]

Again what is the church except it be those to whom the Spirit is given. The Spirit says it guides by bringing to mind "25"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

which the disciples refer to as scripture!

John 2:22
After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

John 12:16
At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him.

The Church is the Body of Christ. But Christ specifically told his apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide them in all truth. Not every John, or Margaret. The Apostles, and their successors.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I didnt think that woman which blessed the womb that bore him (or the God bearer womb) or the paps (Hers) that he sucked was anywhere near as over the top as what goes on today

So, you're critical of how people honor the mother of God...we can be critical of all sorts of things, but who are we to judge? I won't judge how you worship.

 

[Root of Jesse]

This dovetails with a study of the four horses in Revelation... the first horse, the white horse , was the church in the apostolic age, when it was still pure. The next horse, the red horse was the persecuted church until Constantine...

Also a study of the seven churches will also give the same history of the Christian church through the ages.

Can you prove that this is what was meant, or is it just your personal interpretation?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The Church is the Body of Christ. But Christ specifically told his apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide them in all truth. Not every John, or Margaret. The Apostles, and their successors.

The Holy Spirit takes up His abode in every John, or Margaret if they have come to believe in Christ. That is how anyone is to discern the truth from falsehood. It's certainly not from useless debates on a forum.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Don't catholics believe the pope to be infallable? How would you explain the crusades where millions on Muslims were slaughtered by crusaders who believed that they would be completely absolved by all sin? Who had this belief because the pope said "with absolute infallibility " that it was true?

Where do you get your information that millions of Muslims were slaughtered (when there were not millions of Muslims to begin with...)? Secondly the pope, who commissioned the reclaiming of the Holy Land, set specific rules for the crusaders for them to be absolved of sins...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Um, that would be here -

Mark 10:1 Getting up, He went from there to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan; crowds gathered around Him again, and, according to His custom, He once more began to teach them.


2 Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3 And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” 4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.” 5 But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6 But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. 7 For this reason a man shall leave his father and, 8 and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

Bad example. Would you like to try again?

Yours is a bad example. Jesus taught them orally. Catholics wrote it down.

Your example does show where monogamy would be condoned, but polygamy could also be seen as condoned. The doctrine doesn't exist in Scripture.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Yours is a bad example. Jesus taught them orally. Catholics wrote it down.

Your example does show where monogamy would be condoned, but polygamy could also be seen as condoned. The doctrine doesn't exist in Scripture.

Maybe Jacob and Leah and Racheal would be a good example as third generation of God's people.