Historical Church Leaders Call Pope Antichrist

[bbbbbbb]

There is, its just that as a Non-Catholic you choose to make up your own interpretations of scripture to suit your beliefs.

Very well. Please show us from scripture where the office of the Papacy as practiced by your church was established to be passed from Peter to other individuals.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I agree because the Papacy is not a bureaucratic machine. But Jesus did establish the Papacy--the Successors of Rock-- as is clear from the Word of God, which includes the Bible.

That's why Jesus talked about how the Kingdom of God is like a household where the master leaves it in charge of His Steward.

So you believe Christ is no longer in charge?

 

[Goatee]

I agree because the Papacy is not a bureaucratic machine. But Jesus did establish the Papacy--the Successors of Rock-- as is clear from the Word of God, which includes the Bible.

That's why Jesus talked about how the Kingdom of God is like a household where the master leaves it in charge of His Steward.

Exactly!

 

[Goatee]

So you believe Christ is no longer in charge?

Another way of people trying to put words into someone elses mouth!

 

[Goatee]

Very well. Please show us from scripture where the office of the Papacy as practiced by your church was established to be passed from Peter to other individuals.

Read this and it may help you in your confusion:

https://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PETPOPE.HTM

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Another way of people trying to put words into someone eases mouth!

Not really. People are entitled to place kings between them and God Deuteronomy 17:14-15,18-21 , but in doing so they are rejecting the authority of God. Read 1 Samuel when that first took place.

 

[patricius79]

So you believe Christ is no longer in charge?

No. I believe that Christ is no longer visible, though He has given us His Real Presence and His Body and Blood--John 6:53, John 6:55.

Christ's presence is visibly manifested in His Vicar and those in union with him

 

[patricius79]

Very well. Please show us from scripture where the office of the Papacy as practiced by your church was established to be passed from Peter to other individuals.

It sounds like you are assuming the idea of Sola Scriptura, which is not in Scripture. Nor are any of the arguments against the Papacy. The Word of God (Christian Tradition) includes Scripture but is not limited to it. The Word of God is that Rock was given the Keys, making Him the Chief Steward of Christ according to the O.T. office of Major-Domo. This was not a one-time office but something handed on as long as the Kingdom stands. St. Gabriel told the Mother of God that Christ would reign forever on the throne of David.

 

[Meowzltov]

The Greek word for Peter is petros, which means "a pebble" or a small stone.

The Greek for pebble is chaliki. Petra/petros etc can mean stone OR rock. Rock can also be vrachos. That's what came up in google.

Strong's Concordance
Petros: "a stone" or "a boulder," Peter, one of the twelve apostles
Original Word: Πέτρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Petros
Phonetic Spelling: (pet'-ros)
Short Definition: Peter
Definition: Peter, a Greek name meaning rock.

 

[Thursday]

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".

Pope Nicholas I declared that "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man." - Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret GratianPrimer Para.

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" ...Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894,

Here's what Jesus said:

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."


Matt 28
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

[Thursday]

Sorry my concordance says otherwise... what is your source?

Jesus spoke Aramaic, not Greek.

He said thou art Cephas, and upon this Cephas I will build my Church.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

He gave them the words

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

He prays for these and them who believe on Jesus Christ through their word (which is the word he gave them)

Saying

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Thats why they are thanking God here

1 Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Whereas these others were more noble then them since of Thessalonica it says,

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Thursday]

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

He gave them the words

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

He prays for these and them who believe on Jesus Christ through their word (which is the word he gave them)

Saying

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Thats why they are thanking God here

1 Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Whereas these others were more noble then them since of Thessalonica it says,

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Not sure what your point is.

Are you pointing out that Jesus made distinct the roles of Church leaders as opposed to the general believers in John 17?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Not sure what your point is.

Are you pointing out that Jesus made distinct the roles of Church leaders as opposed to the general believers in John 17?

I have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[Thursday]

I have no clue what you are talking about.

In John 17 Jesus prays first for Church leaders, then he prays for the rest of us, ie. those who will believe because of their message.

 

[Fireinfolding]

In John 17 Jesus prays first for Church leaders, then he prays for the rest of us, ie. those who will believe because of their message.

The verse shows Jesus prayed for those he had chosen (and given his words to) and we are to abide in their teaching, anything coming after them should be subject to the former since they even tell us soon after their departure things will not being going uphill from there.

 

[Thursday]

The verse shows Jesus prayed for those he had chosen (and given his words to) and we are to abide in their teaching, anything coming after them should be subject to the former since they even tell us soon after their departure things will not being going uphill from there.

Jesus gave his apostles the authority to teach, to forgive sins, and to appoint successors. They did all these things and their successors continue to do the same. This is as Jesus intended.

 

[Goatee]

Jesus gave his apostles the authority to teach, to forgive sins, and to appoint successors. They did all these things and their successors continue to do the same. This is as Jesus intended.

Exactly

 

[Meowzltov]

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".

Beware of pulling this kind of stuff off of anti-catholic sites.

From: http://catholicpoint.blogspot.com/2012/10/pope-claiming-as-god.html

1.): "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
-Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous," attributed to Pope Pius V.


This seems to be another case of 'hiding behind the curtain of obscurity' as we are merely given the author's surname of Barclay, with no reference to a book title.

As for the identity of this mysterious 'Petrus Bertanous', this author personally tends to believe that this refers to a certain 16th-century Dominican named Petrus Bertanus Fanensis (aka Pietro Bertano; November 4, 1501, Nonantola-March 8, 1558, Rome), who once served as bishop (later cardinal) of Fano in Italy -- the present-day diocese of Fano-Fossombrone-Cagli-Pergola -- and who, among with other Dominicans, was apparently one of the leading prelates at the council of Trentand was an orator and advocate at that same council.
During the papacy of Pope Julius III (who reconvened the second period of the Tridentine council in 1551 after Pope Paul III died in November 10th 1549 at the behest of Emperor Charles V/Charles I of Spain), who entered into a league against the duke of Parma and Henry II of France (1547–59), the Emperor's party requested that Julius admit eight people into the college of Cardinals. Four of them are to be named immediately and the other four are to be reserved in petto until conditions became more favorable; one of those whom they requested to be named immediately is Bertano, who was a member of the imperial party. Eventually he, along with thirteen others, were made cardinals on November 20, 1551, as a sign of reassurance to Charles (especially considering that all fourteen were favorable towards him).
While at first glance this connection may seem plausible (considering that both Pius V and Bertano were both Dominicans), we have to consider the following:

1.) This quote is attributed to Pope Pius V by "Bertanous" (sic). However, Michele Ghislieri O.P. only ascended to the Chair of Peter in January 7, 1566, about eight years after Pietro Bertano died. How could someone who is not then a pope make a statement about the papacy, much less someone who was dead at the time Ghislieri became pope?

2.) Considering that at the time Fra Pietro is still alive, Fra Michele still does not have the power of pronouncing ex cathedra statements - as he was not pope yet - are there chances that his statement (let's suppose for a moment that his "words" are true and are either not a misquote, mistranslation, or just flat-out made up) are actually reflective of official Church teaching?

3.) Are there any more reliable and independent sources for this quote, if any, aside from this rather obscure (and badly-titled) one?

Some sources for this 'quote' add the following phrase: "Cardinal Cusa (i.e.Nicholas of Kues) supports this statement." Now, are there any contents from Cardinal Nicholas' work which support this quote? Here is a chronological listing of Nicholas of Cusa's works. If anyone can point out a paragraph or a sentence in his works (if anyone has them) which says very much the same thing as above (preferably the original Latin included), I'll be glad to put that up.

 

[Meowzltov]

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" ...Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894,

Popes DO act in the place of Christ on earth. It doesn't make them God. They are like the prime minister of the King, acting on the King's behalf while he is away. This is why the Pope is called the Vicar of Christ.