Historical Church Leaders Call Pope Antichrist

[visionary]

"Peter" (Petros) means "Rock".

Here is the Protestant Evangelical RT France:

"The name Peter means 'Rock', and Jesus played on this meaning to designate Peter as the foundation of the new people of God. His leadership would involve the authority of the steward, whose keys symbolized his responsibility to regulate the affairs of the household. Peter would exercise his leadership by his authority to declare what is and is not permissible in the kingdom of heaven (to bind and to loose have this meaning in rabbinic writings)....It is sometimes suggested that because the word for 'rock' (petra) differs from the name Petros, the 'rock' referred to is not Peter himself but the confession he has just made of Jesus as Messiah. In Aramaic, however, the same term kefa would appear in both places; the change in Greek is due to the fact that petra, the normal word for rock, is feminine in gender, and therefore not suitable as a name for Simon! The echo of Peter's name remains obvious, even in Greek; he is the rock, in the sense outlined above." (France, New Bible Commentary with consulting editors Carson, France, Motyer, Wenham [Intervarsity Press, 1994], page 925, 926)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm

A small stone... http://biblehub.com/greek/4074.htm

It is a wordplay.. http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/2718/

 

[patricius79]

A small stone... http://biblehub.com/greek/4074.htm

At that link, Strong's concordance says: "Definition: Peter, a Greek name meaning rock."

Here is Craig Blomberg, a Protestant Evangelical:


"Acknowledging Jesus as The Christ illustrates the appropriateness of Simon's nickname 'Peter' (Petros=rock). This is not the first time Simon has been called Peter (cf. John 1:42 [wherein he is called Cephas]), but it is certainly the most famous. Jesus' declaration, 'You are Peter,' parallels Peter's confession, 'You are the Christ,' as if to say, 'Since you can tell me who I am, I will tell you who you are.' The expression 'this rock' almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following 'the Christ' in v. 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter's name (Petros) and the word 'rock' (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification." (Blomberg, The New American Commentary: Matthew [Broadman, 1992], page 251-252, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 31-32)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

What are the gifts of the Holy Spirit... let's see if there are any that are Catholicesque.

Eph 4:8,11,12
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

I don't see anywhere on the list priests, popes, cardinals, bishops.

 

[patricius79]

What are the gifts of the Holy Spirit... let's see if there are any that are Catholicesque.

Eph 4:8,11,12
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

I don't see anywhere on the list priests, popes, cardinals, bishops.

I don't think the Bible refers to Sola Scriptura either, or even to a New Testament. Popes, Cardinals, and Bishops are pastors, which are mentioned in the verse.

The English word "priest" comes from the Greek word "prebyteros" (presbyter), which is a term used in Scripture.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I don't think the Bible refers to Sola Scriptura either, or even to a New Testament. Popes, Cardinals, and Bishops are pastors, which are mentioned in the verse.

The English word "priest" comes from the Greek word "prebyteros" (presbyter), which is a term used in Scripture, along with the term "episkopos" (bishop).

Rev. 1:5,6
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Looks to me like the office of priest is given to all the saints... why do Catholics think they can claim a monopoly on it?

 

[patricius79]

Rev. 1:5,6
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Looks to me like the office of priest is given to all the saints... why do Catholics think they can claim a monopoly on it?

All Christians are priests. They are all called to be in fully communion with the Church Christ founded, and the Papacy and hierarchy which he established.

 

[concretecamper]

All Christians are priests. They are all called to be in fully communion with the Church Christ founded, and the Papacy and hierarchy which he established.

In fact, we are called to be priest, prophet, and king. Trifecta

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Popes, Cardinals, and Bishops are pastors, which are mentioned in the verse.

That's quite a stretch, don't ya think

In fact, we are called to be priest, prophet, and king. Trifecta

So why the need of the guy you tell all your sins to?

 

[Job8]

I don't think the Bible refers to Sola Scriptura either, or even to a New Testament.

Word of God (see Heb 4:12,13; 1 Pet 1:22-25) = Sola Scriptura. By definition "Word of God" means supreme authority, hence sole authority in spiritual matters. "Word of God" is distinct from "words of men" because it is inspired, inerrant, and infallible. By implication it means Sola Scriptura. If Word of God alone "abides forever", that should mean something.

New Testament (Covenant) (see Mt 26:28; Heb 9:7-13). "Testament" and "covenant" are used interchangeably.

 

[Job8]

The play on words in the Greek between Peter's name (Petros) and the word 'rock' (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification.

One should call this humanistic reasoning, because "it makes sense" only if you ignore the spiritual meaning of Rock going all the way back to its first use as a metaphor for God (Deut 32:3,4,15): Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he...But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Peter was a mere fallible pebble (Aram Kepha = Cephas = Petros = Peter) in the presence of Jesus the Rock. To elevate Peter any higher would be blasphemous. Peter proved his fallibility almost immediately, and also after Gethsemane.

 

[Bible2+]

Job8 said in post 210:

Peter proved his fallibility almost immediately, and also after Gethsemane.

Good point.

For we are assured that at least some people in the church will continue in the truth until Jesus' 2nd coming, for there will be true believers who will still be "alive and remain" at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). But the way that they will continue in the truth won't be by replacing God himself with church leaders as their source of truth, for church leaders are fallible (e.g. Matthew 16:23, Galatians 2:11-14, Luke 22:34). It is only by sticking close to God's own infallible Word the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16, Acts 17:11b, John 17:17) that believers can be sure not to be led astray by any church leaders who might be teaching false doctrines which contradict God's Word (2 Timothy 4:2-4; 1 Timothy 4:1, John 8:31b, Mark 8:35-38).

Because all humans (except Jesus) are fallible, the church itself (unlike God's own Word the Bible: 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4) has never been a perfect model for Christian doctrine and practice. There have always been wrong divisions (Acts 6:1; 1 Corinthians 1:12-13; 1 Corinthians 3:4) and heresies within the church (1 Corinthians 11:18-19). For even those whom the Holy Spirit has made leaders in the church (Acts 20:28) can wrongly employ their free will to teach wrong doctrines and practices which increase their power over people in the church (Acts 20:30, cf. also 3 John 1:9-10). They and their followers can mistakenly forget the warnings of 1 Peter 5:3, Matthew 20:25-27, and Matthew 23:8-12.

Also, even Satan's ministers can transform themselves into "apostles" of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13-15, cf. also Matthew 7:15). And even those truly appointed as apostles by Jesus can wrongly employ their free will to fall from their office (Acts 1:17,20b,25). So even the teachings of apostles must be checked against God's own Word the Bible (Acts 17:11b). So how much more must the doctrine of lesser "teachers" in the church (1 Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11) be checked against the Bible, to make sure that what they are teaching isn't mistaken (2 Peter 2:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:2-4)?

 

[patricius79]

That's quite a stretch, don't ya think

No.

So why the need of the guy you tell all your sins to?

Because Jesus said to those whom he sent "whose sins you forgive, are forgiven them. Whose sins you retain are retained".

 

[patricius79]

Word of God (see Heb 4:12,13; 1 Pet 1:22-25) = Sola Scriptura. By definition "Word of God" means supreme authority, hence sole authority in spiritual matters. "Word of God" is distinct from "words of men" because it is inspired, inerrant, and infallible. By implication it means Sola Scriptura. If Word of God alone "abides forever", that should mean something.

I don't think the Bible says that "Word of God" means Sola Scriptura.

New Testament (Covenant) (see Mt 26:28; Heb 9:7-13). "Testament" and "covenant" are used interchangeably.

I don't see where the Bible ever refers to a New Testament in those verses or anywhere. I know the early Catholic Church had Rock and the other Apostles and taught the oral Word.

 

[patricius79]

Good point.

For we are assured that at least some people in the church will continue in the truth until Jesus' 2nd coming, for there will be true believers who will still be "alive and remain" at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). But the way that they will continue in the truth won't be by replacing God himself with church leaders as their source of truth, for church leaders are fallible (e.g. Matthew 16:23, Galatians 2:11-14, Luke 22:34). It is only by sticking close to God's own infallible Word the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16, Acts 17:11b, John 17:17) that believers can be sure not to be led astray by any church leaders who might be teaching false doctrines which contradict God's Word (2 Timothy 4:2-4; 1 Timothy 4:1, John 8:31b, Mark 8:35-38).

Because all humans (except Jesus) are fallible, the church itself (unlike God's own Word the Bible: 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4) has never been a perfect model for Christian doctrine and practice. There have always been wrong divisions (Acts 6:1; 1 Corinthians 1:12-13; 1 Corinthians 3:4) and heresies within the church (1 Corinthians 11:18-19). For even those whom the Holy Spirit has made leaders in the church (Acts 20:28) can wrongly employ their free will to teach wrong doctrines and practices which increase their power over people in the church (Acts 20:30, cf. also 3 John 1:9-10). They and their followers can mistakenly forget the warnings of 1 Peter 5:3, Matthew 20:25-27, and Matthew 23:8-12.

The Church doesn't teach that Rock or His Successors are always right or that they aren't sinners. She only teaches that they won't dogmatically define error.

 

[patricius79]

One should call this humanistic reasoning, because "it makes sense" only if you ignore the spiritual meaning of Rock going all the way back to its first use as a metaphor for God (Deut 32:3,4,15): Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he...But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Peter was a mere fallible pebble (Aram Kepha = Cephas = Petros = Peter) in the presence of Jesus the Rock. To elevate Peter any higher would be blasphemous. Peter proved his fallibility almost immediately, and also after Gethsemane.

"Petros" and "Kepha" don't mean pebble. They mean "Rock", as even some major Protestant scholars. such as DA Carson, acknowledge, along with acknowledging that the plain meaning of the verse is that the Church is built on Simon Rock.
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm

Of course Rock was a sinner. And of course he was fallible, and so are the Popes, except when they are teaching dogmatically.

 

[bbbbbbb]

"Petros" and "Kepha" don't mean pebble. They mean "Rock", as even some major Protestant scholars. such as DA Carson, acknowledge, along with acknowledging that the plain meaning of the verse is that the Church is built on Simon Rock.
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm

Of course Rock was a sinner. And of course he was fallible, and so are the Popes, except when they are teaching dogmatically.

That still leaves you out in the cold in attempting to make the quantum leap that Jesus Christ established the bureaucratic machine known as the Papacy. There is not the slightest indication that there was any intention of doing so.

 

[Goatee]

Rev. 1:5,6
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Looks to me like the office of priest is given to all the saints... why do Catholics think they can claim a monopoly on it?

Self interpretation yet again to suit your own beliefs

 

[Goatee]

That still leaves you out in the cold in attempting to make the quantum leap that Jesus Christ established the bureaucratic machine known as the Papacy. There is not the slightest indication that there was any intention of doing so.

There is, its just that as a Non-Catholic you choose to make up your own interpretations of scripture to suit your beliefs.

 

[Goatee]

Because Jesus said to those whom he sent "whose sins you forgive, are forgiven them. Whose sins you retain are retained".

Agreed. Non Catholics like to see that verse as it suits them. If they especially hate Catholics, like EastCoastRemnant they will try and stamp on any belief that a Catholic has if it does not tie in with their own beliefs.

I am sure that like EastCoastRemnant, they are scared of the strong faith and beliefs of the Catholics. How the Catholic church has continued with the Holy Spirit since the days in the upper room, fighting off the false Prophets of other denominations of which Jesus warned us about.

Matthew 7:15New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

2 Timothy 4:3New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
3 For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires,

 

[patricius79]

That still leaves you out in the cold in attempting to make the quantum leap that Jesus Christ established the bureaucratic machine known as the Papacy. There is not the slightest indication that there was any intention of doing so.

I agree because the Papacy is not a bureaucratic machine. But Jesus did establish the Papacy--the Successors of Rock-- as is clear from the Word of God, which includes the Bible.

That's why Jesus talked about how the Kingdom of God is like a household where the master leaves it in charge of His Steward.