Muslim discrimination

Landon Caeli

God is perfect - Nothing is an accident
Site Supporter
Jan 8, 2016
15,537
5,871
46
CA
✟573,254.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Good point, Smaneck. Traditional Christianity most emphatically denied free will. Calvin made fun of the idea. Luther also ridiculed it in his "Bondage of the Will."

Traditional Christianity also, most certainly held to the idea of free will. From Desiderius Erasmus, in his rejection of Luthers interpretation to St. Augustine speaking to the Manichaeism, to Jesus telling people to "sin no more". Free will has been around for a while.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

Heatios

Active Member
Jan 3, 2016
119
34
24
Seattle, WA
✟476.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Traditional Christianity also, most certainly held to the idea of free will. From Desiderius Erasmus, in his rejection of Luthers interpretation to St. Augustine speaking to the Manichaeism, to Jesus telling people to "sin no more". Free will has been around for a while.
Free will may not exist, as long as it appears I have free will though, is all that matters.
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟45,617.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
In both ancient Isreal during the OT time period and the Roman empire during the NT period, slavery was not based upon one's race and slaves in both systems had the opportunity to purchase their freedom. While it would be a mistake to glorify ancient slavery, it is also necessary to remember that slavery in the ancient world was almost the only way to deal with impoverishment. When one could not take care of oneself or family, selling oneself into slavery could mean the difference between life and death. In other words, ancient slavery enabled people to escape starvation in th absence of charitable or goverment assistance. Ref, The Reformation Study Bible.

That's nice. But guess what: it's still horribly immoral, and a terrible system to codify into law. What of the children of slaves? How could it possibly be moral to enslave someone based on the situation of their birth? What of the laws allowing beatings? You can make excuses all you want, but the fact of the matter is, the system described in the bible is horribly immoral. And completely unnecessary, to boot. God could have saved a lot of suffering by actually saying "indentured servitude" and laying down strict rules on how to treat these servants correctly. But he didn't, instead opting for explanations on how to trick your slave into permanently becoming your property, and exactly how hard it's legal to beat them.

But I don't have access to the reformation study bible, so I did the responsible thing and tried to corroborate your source on my own. I went and did a little digging. What you're describing applies only to Hebrew slaves. To quote Wikipedia:

The Hebrew Bible contains two sets of rules governing slaves: one set for Hebrew slaves (Lev 25:39-43) and a second set for Canaanite slaves (Lev 25:45-46).[1][21] The main source of non-Hebrew slaves were prisoners of war.[18] Hebrew slaves, in contrast to non-Hebrew slaves, became slaves either because of extreme poverty (in which case they could sell themselves to an Israelite owner) or because of inability to pay a debt.[16] According to the Hebrew Bible, non-Hebrew slaves were drawn primarily from the neighboring Canaanite nations,[22] and religious justification was provided for the enslavement of these neighbors: the rules governing Canaanites was based on a curse aimed at Canaan, a son of Ham,[23] but in later eras the Canaanite slavery laws were stretched to apply to all non-Hebrew slaves.[24]

The laws governing non-Hebrew slaves were more harsh than those governing Hebrew slaves: non-Hebrew slaves could be owned permanently, and bequeathed to the owner's children,[25] whereas Hebrew slaves were treated as servants, and were released after seven years of service or the occurrence of a jubilee year.[26][27] One scholar suggests that the distinction was due to the fact that non-Hebrew slaves were subject to the curse of Canaan, whereas God did not want Jews to be slaves because he freed them from Egyptian enslavement.[28]

Oh, and the bible explicitly states that female slaves are not to be released after 7 years. So that's also terrible.

You amaze me. Do you not read what I had to say? THE SLAVES OF 200 YEARS AGO WERE OF A DIFFERENT NATURE THAN THE EXAMPLES OF SLAVES YOU PRESENTED IN BIBLICAL TIMES. The slaves in biblical times sold THEMSELVES into slavery.
The bible DOESN'T support the slavery you speak of. Got it?

But I'm not talking about the slaves of 200 years ago. I'm talking about slavery as described by the holy bible. Even outside of any other context, even completely ignoring the trans-Atlantic slave trade, the system described in exodus is still monstrous, and still completely immoral. There's a reason we did away with indentured servitude in the modern world - it's an unconscionable abridgment of one's personal liberties, and only the truly desperate and stupid would be willing to sign up for it. But what is described in Exodus is not simply indentured servitude. You buy your slaves from the heathens around you. Female slaves remain slaves for life. Caananite slaves remain slaves for life, and can be bequeathed to your children. The children of your slaves will also become your slaves. Nothing in here is moral, and attempting to make it sound justifiable just seems desperate.
 
Upvote 0

Landon Caeli

God is perfect - Nothing is an accident
Site Supporter
Jan 8, 2016
15,537
5,871
46
CA
✟573,254.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Free will may not exist, as long as it appears I have free will though, is all that matters.

I know earlier we went through talking about Sufi's, contemplative thought (or the lack there of in mainstream Islam), free will, predestination and the term "Mystic"... Ive come to this!

.....I'm getting it. :oldthumbsup:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Homosexuality, cannibalism, ritualistic sacrifice, suicide pacts, gender reassignment, dueling, prostitution... I'm sure there's something on that list of fully consensual activities to which both parties agree that you might object to.

My morals are not a problem to those people.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Solomon did not make slaves of his own people. If you look at the passages directly before that:
20As for all the people who were left of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, who were not of the sons of Israel,
21their descendants who were left after them in the land whom the sons of Israel were unable to destroy utterly, from them Solomon levied forced laborers, even to this day.
Context.

And since Jesus the context has changed, and you are now offended,
because of your new context. I appreciate that you now believe
the Bible is correct:

Berean Study Bible
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Berean Literal Bible
All things therefore, as many as you might desire that men should do to you, so also you do to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That's nice. But guess what: it's still horribly immoral, and a terrible system to codify into law.

You are enlightened by:

Berean Study Bible
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Berean Literal Bible
All things therefore, as many as you might desire that men should do to you, so also you do to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And you still have yet to back up these claims.

Read about slavery in the Bible, in the Bible.

New International Version
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

New International Version
During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out,
and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God.

Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand ...
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do
not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery

http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=slavery
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
<Staff Edit>
The opinion of others offends you?

And yes, the other verses explain why you erroneously think some are horrific.
Why would you be offended unless you were a believer in the Christian specific
ethic principals? I appreciate your love for God's words, even if you don't think
you do. OK...no more single verses, per your specific request.

2 Corinthians 8:8 I am not commanding you, but I want to test the ...
... I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness
of others that your love also is genuine. ...
//biblehub.com/2_corinthians/8-8.htm - 18k


Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing ...
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one
another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. ...
//biblehub.com/romans/13-8.htm - 18k


1 Corinthians 13:3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give ...
... If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast
about it; but if I didn't love others, I would have gained nothing. ...
//biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-3.htm - 19k


Romans 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what ...
... Don't just pretend to love others. Really love them.

Hate what is wrong. ...

//biblehub.com/romans/12-9.htm - 17k


1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels ...
... If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn't love
others
, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. ...
//biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-1.htm - 19k


1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom ...
... and if I understood all of God's secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if
I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn't love others, I would ...
//biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-2.htm - 20k

Isaiah 43:4 Since you are precious and honored in my sight, and ...
... Since you are precious to me, you are honored and I love you. I will exchange
others for you. Nations will be the price I pay for your life. ...
//biblehub.com/isaiah/43-4.htm - 18k


Colossians 1:8 and who also told us of your love in the Spirit.
... He has told us about the love for others that the Holy Spirit has given you. .... ...
//biblehub.com/colossians/1-8.htm - 17k


1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy ...
... Love has long patience, is kind; love is not emulous of others;
love is not insolent and rash, is not puffed up, ...
//biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-4.htm - 18k


Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is ...
... Love does no wrong to others, so love fulfills the requirements of God's law. .... ...
//biblehub.com/romans/13-10.htm - 17k


Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace ...
... The Spirit, on the other hand, brings a harvest of love, joy, peace;
patience towards others, kindness, benevolence; ...
//biblehub.com/galatians/5-22.htm - 17k

Any other passages you have problems with?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Heatios

Active Member
Jan 3, 2016
119
34
24
Seattle, WA
✟476.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Read about slavery in the Bible, in the Bible.

New International Version
"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

New International Version
During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out,
and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God.

Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand ...
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do
not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery

http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=slavery
Why does it make sense that God would inspire someone to give specific instructions in favor of slavery, only later to say slavery was bad, Especially if he's omniscient?

By the way there are as well pro slavery passages in the NT as well so you really haven't disproven anything, only confirmed that there are contradictory passages when we never said there weren't passages against slavery only pointed out and questioned why there are pro slavery passages.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Why does it make sense that God would inspire someone to give specific instructions in favor of slavery, only later to say slavery was bad, Especially if he's omniscient?By the way there are as well pro slavery passages in the NT as well so you really haven't disproven anything, only confirmed that there are contradictory passages when we never said there weren't passages against slavery only pointed out and questioned why there are pro slavery passages.

There are no contradictory passages. The scriptures are a historical document that
covers the topic of how man deals with not walking with God now that we have
chosen to walk in Sin. Moses hid a mans body in the sand. It's a historical fact.
It's not an instructional passage for you to use for when you get miffed at your boss.

Any other passages you have problems understanding?
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You're the one claiming that biblical slavery wasn't immoral...

Morality is a personal judgment. My view doesn't impact
the historical records in any way.

As you can tell, I feel your views on history have no value
because of your lack of concern for slaves today.


Any other passages you have problems understanding?
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,699
1,957
✟70,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That's nice. But guess what: it's still horribly immoral, and a terrible system to codify into law. What of the children of slaves? How could it possibly be moral to enslave someone based on the situation of their birth? What of the laws allowing beatings? You can make excuses all you want, but the fact of the matter is, the system described in the bible is horribly immoral. And completely unnecessary, to boot. God could have saved a lot of suffering by actually saying "indentured servitude" and laying down strict rules on how to treat these servants correctly. But he didn't, instead opting for explanations on how to trick your slave into permanently becoming your property, and exactly how hard it's legal to beat them.

But I don't have access to the reformation study bible, so I did the responsible thing and tried to corroborate your source on my own. I went and did a little digging. What you're describing applies only to Hebrew slaves. To quote Wikipedia:

The Hebrew Bible contains two sets of rules governing slaves: one set for Hebrew slaves (Lev 25:39-43) and a second set for Canaanite slaves (Lev 25:45-46).[1][21] The main source of non-Hebrew slaves were prisoners of war.[18] Hebrew slaves, in contrast to non-Hebrew slaves, became slaves either because of extreme poverty (in which case they could sell themselves to an Israelite owner) or because of inability to pay a debt.[16] According to the Hebrew Bible, non-Hebrew slaves were drawn primarily from the neighboring Canaanite nations,[22] and religious justification was provided for the enslavement of these neighbors: the rules governing Canaanites was based on a curse aimed at Canaan, a son of Ham,[23] but in later eras the Canaanite slavery laws were stretched to apply to all non-Hebrew slaves.[24]

The laws governing non-Hebrew slaves were more harsh than those governing Hebrew slaves: non-Hebrew slaves could be owned permanently, and bequeathed to the owner's children,[25] whereas Hebrew slaves were treated as servants, and were released after seven years of service or the occurrence of a jubilee year.[26][27] One scholar suggests that the distinction was due to the fact that non-Hebrew slaves were subject to the curse of Canaan, whereas God did not want Jews to be slaves because he freed them from Egyptian enslavement.[28]

Oh, and the bible explicitly states that female slaves are not to be released after 7 years. So that's also terrible.



But I'm not talking about the slaves of 200 years ago. I'm talking about slavery as described by the holy bible. Even outside of any other context, even completely ignoring the trans-Atlantic slave trade, the system described in exodus is still monstrous, and still completely immoral. There's a reason we did away with indentured servitude in the modern world - it's an unconscionable abridgment of one's personal liberties, and only the truly desperate and stupid would be willing to sign up for it. But what is described in Exodus is not simply indentured servitude. You buy your slaves from the heathens around you. Female slaves remain slaves for life. Caananite slaves remain slaves for life, and can be bequeathed to your children. The children of your slaves will also become your slaves. Nothing in here is moral, and attempting to make it sound justifiable just seems desperate.

Now you're catching on. The idea of slavery has several nuances. You finally realized you were using the term slave in the wrong nuance.
 
Upvote 0

Heatios

Active Member
Jan 3, 2016
119
34
24
Seattle, WA
✟476.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Now you're catching on. The idea of slavery has several nuances. You finally realized you were using the term slave in the wrong nuance.
Why do you and Sky both care so much about slave meaning the same thing it does today? It doesn't matter. Either way it is immoral.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

myownmynativeland

Active Member
Jan 10, 2016
298
76
72
USA
✟8,565.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Fact is the American People have no obligation to invite moslems into our Country. They add nothing of value to the American People and experience across the world shows that they are always a problem as their numbers increase. Take a look at the mess Europe has on its hands. Keep them away from our shores.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Fact is the American People have no obligation to invite moslems into our Country. They add nothing of value to the American People and experience across the world shows that they are always a problem as their numbers increase. Take a look at the mess Europe has on its hands. Keep them away from our shores.
OTOH - having them here in the land of the free and home of the brave gives us opportunity to share the gospel with them.

We blew the opportunity a decade ago with the fall of the Hussein regime in Iraq. If we had sent in 100,000 Christian evangelists, that whole country could have been turned for Christ.
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟45,617.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Right, and with this one line of the bible, you can immediately throw out countless commandments and opinions. What you're arguing is that homosexuality is absolutely okay according to the bible.

The idea of slavery has several nuances.

I kind of just want to leave this statement hanging in the room, as it really does show off the depths to which some Christians will sink to to defend their holy book. "The idea of slavery has several nuances." Do you seriously not understand what's wrong with that statement? We're talking about a relationship where one person is a person, and the other person is property. That is fundamentally immoral in principle and in practice. There is no nuance to this, only degrees to which it could be way more or slightly less awful.

But no. Even if I were to accept that, it wouldn't help you any. See, the kind of slavery I'm talking about? The kind I'm calling horribly immoral? It's the kind the bible describes. And you've done absolutely nothing but hand-wave and pretend that it's somehow some special, different kind of slavery, which completely ignores the crux of my argument. I'm not talking about the trans-atlantic slave trade. Every statement I've made about biblical slavery is based on verses in Exodus. I'm not referring to extrabiblical sources when I say that Israeli slavemasters were allowed to beat their slaves to the verge of death. I'm not referring to some old atheist scholar when I say that the children of slaves are also enslaved. I'm directly referencing verses in the old testament.

But if anyone does want to see a scholar's take on it:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crosse...cal-slavery-was-the-same-as-american-slavery/

“4. A Difference In How People Freed Themselves From Slavery.” Wallace argues that there were more ways for OT slaves to free themselves than in America.

  • Someone could pay the debt of an indentured servant, or they could do it themselves.
  • The indentured servant could complete his term of service.
  • Slave could be freed if injured from a beating (it’s unclear which kind of slave this refers to).
How is this different from conditions in America? In addition, slaves in America sometimes bought their freedom, which the Bible doesn’t address.

Let me again give Jim Wallace credit for giving a fairly thorough list of Bible verses on the subject at hand. But Jim, tell me the truth. Are you a Poe? You let the Bible speak for itself, and it does: it documents a 2500-year-old version of American slavery. The two are almost identical, point by point.​
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Right, and with this one line of the bible, you can immediately throw out countless commandments and opinions. What you're arguing is that homosexuality is absolutely okay according to the bible.

We don't really need any of those other writings.

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks...

I've not made that argument regarding homosexuality or any other Sin, but Sin does not
have any grade or scale. Being selfish counts the same as murder.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums