Muslim discrimination

[Heatios]

Dear all Christians who believe that Muslims should be banned from entering the US, or that they all take their book literally, and should be ostracized for it;

Please realize that you are not by default a superhero. The vast majority of Muslims do not take the q'uran literally, and are peaceful. To make a generalization about all Muslims based on a small minority is completely and utterly ignorant.

Do not act as if the Bible is not equally bad, as if the Q'uran is so much worse, and that anyone who believes it should be banned to prevent what it says in there.

If you are going to assume all Muslims believe the Quran literally because of the horrific passages within it, and the actions of the few, let me extend your reasoning and assume you intend to stone your neighbors for working on the Sabbath(Exodus 31:14), that you think eating shrimp is a sin(Leviticus 11:9-12), that it's a sin to cut your hair(Leviticus 21:5).

Oh and you want to take terrorism and justify that as reason for thinking all Muslims will commit it? How about we ban Christians then, in light of the Planned Parenthood shootings that were done by a Christian, or maybe Dylann Roof, devout Conservative Christian, kills nine people.

My point is with all of this that just like you do not believe those verses in the bible to be accurate, or laws you should abide by, there are parallel laws and passages within the Q'uran that Muslims do not feel they need to abide by in the same exact way. Just like Christians have the ability to commit these horrible unspeakable acts, Muslims do likewise.

Yet, just like some Muslims are terrorists, not all Christians are murderers. Generalization is vitally important to avoid in the effort to ostracize terrorism, and accept our brothers and sisters who are peaceful yet abide by the same doctrine. You can use the bible to justify slavery, Hitler used it to justify killing the jews, just as Muslims can use the Q'uran to justify terrorism. However, does this mean these actions are inevitable, simply because you can use it as justification for these monstrous acts of violence?

Don't let the actions of the few represent the many.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Hey thanks for that! I , well, dunno what more to say...

 

[SkyWriting]

You can use the bible to justify slavery, Hitler used it to justify killing the jews,

Not really.

New International Version
Do to others as you would have them do to you.

New Living Translation
Do to others as you would like them to do to you.

English Standard Version
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

New International Version
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

New Living Translation
"Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.

English Standard Version
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Berean Study Bible
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

 

[The Cadet]

Don't let the actions of the few represent the many.

Okay, but when we take polls of the Muslim world, and Muslims in Britain, the results are fairly shocking. I don't like using this website as a source (it's kind of awful most of the time), but thereligionofpeace.com has a fairly comprehensive list of opinion polls that paint an extremely damning picture of Muslims.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

Some excerpts:

Spoiler

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

Channel Four (2006): 31% of younger British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified compared to 14% of those over 45.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf


16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/article/detail/1619036/2013/04/22/Zestien-procent-moslimjongens-vindt-terrorisme-aanvaardbaar.dhtml


Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60


Pew Research (2013): At least 1 in 4 Muslims do not reject violence against civilians (study did not distinguish between those who believe it is partially justified and never justified).
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

And it goes on and on. These numbers are and should be shocking. They largely point to the same issues Rahman pointed to in her article:

And so, to understand the moderate mind, you have to envision it on a continuum from radical to middle, but the closer you get to liberal, there is a wall. It creeps up on you, in the condemnation of homosexuality, in the unequal treatment and subjugation of women, but it’s there. Beyond that wall that they are afraid to look over, for fear of eternal hell fire and damnation, is where the answer lies though. So being a Muslim moderate these days is like running a race with a ball and chain attached to your feet. A handicap. Unless you can imagine what the world beyond that wall looks like, you can’t really navigate it. If you’re so terrified of blasphemy that you refuse to look over, you’re forever stuck. Right here. And behind you is the jihadi horde, laying claim to real Islam, practicing it to perfection, as it is laid out in the Quran. A veritable rock and a hard place. I feel your pain. I’ve been there. And it was untenable.

I read, discussed, debated alongside many good Muslim young people from all over the world, in Internet forums, trying to argue our way to a solution, much like we are doing on social media right now. I knew I rejected the homophobia, I knew I rejected the subjugation of women. And it all remained a theory until I saw it in practice. In the drawing rooms of the Midwestern professional moderate Muslim.​

Meanwhile, in Germany, we had a group of 1000 refugees sexually assaulting women in public on New Years. We have schools (including the berufsschule my girlfriend goes to!) issuing warnings that women should dress modestly because of cultural differences with nearby Syrian refugees. To put it bluntly, if women need to dress modestly for their own safety, maybe there's a problem?

I know a lot of Muslims who are perfectly fine people, who understand that they need to integrate into western society and are essentially the Muslim equivalent of Easter-Christmas-Christians. But to pretend there isn't a problem with the massive immigration of Muslims from societies that have no conception of gay rights, of women's rights, of religious plurality... Nah. That's a luxury we can't afford.

 

[talitha]

The Qu'ran is just a bunch of stuff plagiarized from the Bible with changes to suit the plagiarist and some truly demonic stuff thrown in. Meh. What is evil about Islam is Allah. The thought of so many people so deceived to their unimaginable harm infuriates me. Sometimes I truly wish that God had sent me and my husband to a Muslim country so that we could help to bring the gospel to even just a few of them before our certain deaths (but I know He knows best about where we should be). I don't WANT to discriminate against Muslims (they are really just victims, after all), but for the safety of the people in a non-Muslim country, the governments should not welcome thousands of them in at the same time. It is simply unwise, because of the evil spirit that fuels their religion. It's like people say about wolves - we should not have them as pets because as gentle as they may be most of the time, they are, after all, wild animals, and one never knows when that instinct will kick in nor what may trigger it. After Cologne, I hope most countries (especially the USA) will exercise a lot more caution.

 

[com7fy8]

Hi, Heatios I see that you are ready to be heated about this, as you have shown with Sky Writing; so I "stand warned"

First, I agree how we need to not assume all Muslims are alike. And one practical item I consider is how ISIS seems to need to make quite a project, just to get a "few" people to become radicalized enough to join ISIS. If this world's many Muslims were all into ISIS-like Shariah law, already so many of them would be ready for ISIS and already doing things ISIS wants.

The fact that they have to make so much effort to recruit is evidence that they do not represent most Muslims.

Also - - - if we treat all Muslims like they are ready to act as terrorists, this can get us into bad relating with them so ones might be tempted to become terrorists. However, even though ones now are treating Muslims in general like each one is an enemy . . . many clearly have not given in to the temptation to become trained killers of "infidels"; or else millions of people would now be getting killed, I would think.

So, it is not wise to help ISIS by painting all Muslims with one brush. This can help to alienate certain Muslims . . . ones who are near the brink of deciding to become radicalized.

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.”1 Peter 2:18
Explain to me how this verse can't be used to justify slavery. Don't give me that law of the land bull either, if God wanted us not to own slaves he could have easily just said 'don't own slaves'. He is God after all.

Yes, He could have said do not own slaves, and He didn't.

And elsewhere Paul is very clear how he gives Christian slaves motivation to be good to believers who own them > "because those who are benefitted are believers and beloved" > in 1 Timothy 6:2.

You seem to have made an effort to know the scriptures. So, I will let you think for yourself about scriptures which could explain why God would not just terminate slavery. I have offered the above scripture, for a start.

 

[Hank77]

If you are going to assume all Muslims believe the Quran literally because of the horrific passages within it, and the actions of the few, let me extend your reasoning and assume you intend to stone your neighbors for working on the Sabbath(Exodus 31:14), that you think eating shrimp is a sin(Leviticus 11:9-12), that it's a sin to cut your hair(Leviticus 21:5).

lol, this is such a bogus argument it is just too funny.

Oh and you want to take terrorism and justify that as reason for thinking all Muslims will commit it? How about we ban Christians then, in light of the Planned Parenthood shootings that were done by a Christian, or maybe Dylann Roof, devout Conservative Christian, kills nine people.

No, but what peaceful Muslims say about Islam tells me that they have a problem that some of them are trying desperately to solve. As one said, Islam needs a reformation. But how do they do that, there are no scriptures in the Q'uran to support it, unlike the Bible.

My point is with all of this that just like you do not believe those verses in the bible to be accurate, or laws you should abide by, there are parallel laws and passages within the Q'uran that Muslims do not feel they need to abide by in the same exact way.

Most Christians do believe those verses to be accurate. We have a new covenant as written in the New Testament (Covenant). Those scriptures clearly say that the Law of Moses was only given to the physical nation of Israel and that it was temporary.

Oh shut up did you even read the post? I clearly said that just the same as the Bible can be used to justify murder, it can also be used to justify treating others how you want to be treated.

No that is not what you said. You said Christians ignore or don't believe those scriptures in the OT, indeed we do. However, we are not disciples of Moses, we are the disciples of Jesus the Christ. For this reason we are not required to follow the Law of Moses, we are required follow Jesus and what He told the apostles to teach us to do.

The Muslims have only the scriptures that they have in the Q'uran. That is what they are required to follow.

Your failure to see the underlying point in my post shows how close minded you are.

Your posting OT, scriptures from the Law of Moses is either a deliberate misrepresentation of Christianity or you are just ignorant of what Christianity is all about.

I know you want to go on with this fantasy and pick and chose the good ones to follow literally and then label the bad ones as metaphoric or out dated giving you some excuse to not apply the same logic.

We just are not a part of that covenant (the Law of Moses), we are the body of Christ, not the body of Moses.

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.”1 Peter 2:18

So if one is a slave they should do this. What is your problem with that? What would you have liked Peter to say to Christians who were slaves. Should he have told them to rebel, to fight, to kill their masters, to run away, what?

 

[The Cadet]

So if one is a slave they should do this. What is your problem with that? What would you have liked Peter to say to Christians who were slaves. Should he have told them to rebel, to fight, to kill their masters, to run away, what?

Yes. The moral thing when confronted with being enslaved is to do everything in your power to escape enslavement. Telling them to obey their masters as a moral commandment? That's awful.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Not really.

New International Version
Do to others as you would have them do to you.

New Living Translation
Do to others as you would like them to do to you.

English Standard Version
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

New International Version
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

New Living Translation
"Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.

English Standard Version
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Berean Study Bible
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Great! Therefore we know that no one can use the Koran to justify forcing unbelievers to join Islam.

Al-Baqara 2:256

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
— trans. Yusuf Ali

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
— trans. Marmaduke Pickthall

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
— trans. Shakir

No compulsion is there in religion. Rectitude has become clear from error. So whosoever disbelieves in idols and believes in God, has laid hold of the most firm handle, unbreaking; God is All-hearing, All-knowing.
— trans. Arberry

 

[Hank77]

Yes. The moral thing when confronted with being enslaved is to do everything in your power to escape enslavement. Telling them to obey their masters as a moral commandment? That's awful.

The point was that their Christian behavior would show the love of Christ to the master, to set an example.
In the instance of a Christian master and a Christian slave, as in 1 Tim., we see a mutual unity to follow the Christ's commandment to love one another.
When we say slave that doesn't always mean forced enslavement either. It can refer to indentured slaves that are only slaves until their debt is paid back. If one is an indentured slave it would be dishonest to leave before the debt was paid.

 

[talitha]

Great! Therefore we know that no one can use the Koran to justify forcing unbelievers to join Islam.

Al-Baqara 2:256

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
— trans. Yusuf Ali

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
— trans. Marmaduke Pickthall

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
— trans. Shakir

No compulsion is there in religion. Rectitude has become clear from error. So whosoever disbelieves in idols and believes in God, has laid hold of the most firm handle, unbreaking; God is All-hearing, All-knowing.
— trans. Arberry

Right..... and the jizya?

 

[talitha]

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

 

[talitha]

On slavery..... God was more interested in the souls of the masters and slaves than he was in the condition of slavery. He still is.

 

[Hank77]

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
— trans. Yusuf Ali

No one said Muhammad was a fool. We all know there is no way to force someone to BELIEVE in Allah or in YHWH. They will either believe when told or they won't.
(9:5) "And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful."

Who are idolators, all those who do not believe in Allah.
What is the Zakat?
"a tax, comprising percentages of personal income of every kind, levied as almsgiving for the relief of the poor: the third of the Pillars of Islam."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/zakat

So if they repent to Allah, observe prayer to Allah, pay alms to Allah, as in the third pillar, then Allah will forgive them of their previous idolatry.
If one is not a Muslim they cannot be paying alms to Allah because they don't believe in Allah.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Meanwhile, in Germany, we had a group of 1000 refugees sexually assaulting women in public on New Years. We have schools (including the berufsschule my girlfriend goes to!) issuing warnings that women should dress modestly because of cultural differences with nearby Syrian refugees. To put it bluntly, if women need to dress modestly for their own safety, maybe there's a problem?

See, the issue is not really about terrorism. It's that their culture and ours mix like fire and gasoline. The reason to oppose Muslim immigration into Western countries is... we just don't need it. It's not helpful.

 

[ViaCrucis]

After all, the core of Christianity is not the Bible, per se, it is Jesus. In Islam, the core of the religion is not Mohammed - it is the Qur'an. So there's the first and most significant difference right there.

Theologically I agree. But you got to admit that there is a sense in which a number of Christians view the Bible similar to how Islam views the Qur'an. I believe that to be theologically problematic and against the grain of the historic Christian thought, but we would be amiss not to acknowledge when and where it does happen. And that, to that end, the way some Christians utilize the Bible and interpret their faith is not wholly unlike the way some Muslims utilize the Qur'an and interpret their faith.

Though I think the underlying problem is neither Christianity or Islam, the Bible or the Qur'an, but Fundamentalism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AmericanChristian91]

During our worst War when many died because some Christians decided to try to leave the Union, and the after effects later such as further discrimination towards blacks (preventing from voting, segregation, no interracial marriage) and the rise of the KKK, the response to all of this was not to discriminate against Christianity.

Therefore we shouldn't discriminate against Islam because some Muslims are a threat to us.

 

[The Cadet]

See, the issue is not really about terrorism. It's that their culture and ours mix like fire and gasoline. The reason to oppose Muslim immigration into Western countries is... we just don't need it. It's not helpful.

Yeah, I really have to agree here. The threat of ISIS-brand terrorism from Syrian refugees? Overblown and virtually non-existent. The threat of a massive backslide in the value of our cultures? My girlfriend is literally afraid that she will be raped if she goes to school in a miniskirt. There is clearly a problem here.

But you got to admit that there is a sense in which a number of Christians view the Bible similar to how Islam views the Qur'an.

Yes, but even they tend to follow the laws of the land in a way that cannot be said to be similar for Islamists.

Though I think the underlying problem is neither Christianity or Islam, the Bible or the Qur'an, but Fundamentalism.

But the problem with Islam specifically is that such a fundamentalist approach is heavily ingrained into the religion and how it is seen. I'm not sure I agree with this, honestly - after all, what are the odds that a fundamentalist Janist kills someone? Fundamentalism is a problem only if that which you are fundamentalist about is violent.

 

[Landon Caeli]

LOL comparing police officers to Slave owners. You're disgusting for thinking slavery is correct which is basically what you just told me. Tell me why a God would tell a slave to suffer through his pain instead of saying that slavery is wrong.. Tell me how a God would rather give justification for a person being able to impose his will over another person rather then saying it's wrong to do so.

Problem with your analogy is that you have just basically made the claim that it is a slaves fault he's a slave. If we break the rules we comply to officers who in force them, however a slave at no fault of their own is treated as though this pain is necessary and the wicked actions are moral, a person who is owned did absolutely nothing to deserve such a thing while a person told to "get on the ground" by a officer is told with reason.

A person is told to suffer and accept mistreatment for no reason, and in comparison a person is told to be minorly inconvenienced for a good reason. Your analogies and justification for slavery are sick.

Dear all Christians who believe that Muslims should be banned from entering the US, or that they all take their book literally, and should be ostracized for it;

Please realize that you are not by default a superhero. The vast majority of Muslims do not take the q'uran literally, and are peaceful. To make a generalization about all Muslims based on a small minority is completely and utterly ignorant.

Do not act as if the Bible is not equally bad, as if the Q'uran is so much worse, and that anyone who believes it should be banned to prevent what it says in there.

If you are going to assume all Muslims believe the Quran literally because of the horrific passages within it, and the actions of the few, let me extend your reasoning and assume you intend to stone your neighbors for working on the Sabbath(Exodus 31:14), that you think eating shrimp is a sin(Leviticus 11:9-12), that it's a sin to cut your hair(Leviticus 21:5).

Oh and you want to take terrorism and justify that as reason for thinking all Muslims will commit it? How about we ban Christians then, in light of the Planned Parenthood shootings that were done by a Christian, or maybe Dylann Roof, devout Conservative Christian, kills nine people.

My point is with all of this that just like you do not believe those verses in the bible to be accurate, or laws you should abide by, there are parallel laws and passages within the Q'uran that Muslims do not feel they need to abide by in the same exact way. Just like Christians have the ability to commit these horrible unspeakable acts, Muslims do likewise.

Yet, just like some Muslims are terrorists, not all Christians are murderers. Generalization is vitally important to avoid in the effort to ostracize terrorism, and accept our brothers and sisters who are peaceful yet abide by the same doctrine. You can use the bible to justify slavery, Hitler used it to justify killing the jews, just as Muslims can use the Q'uran to justify terrorism. However, does this mean these actions are inevitable, simply because you can use it as justification for these monstrous acts of violence?

Don't let the actions of the few represent the many.

This whole thread is ignorant to the fact that Islam is in opposition to the Western culture, not "Christianity" or sports or any other aspect of our culture in particular.

 

[Landon Caeli]

During our worst War when many died because some Christians decided to try to leave the Union, and the after effects later such as further discrimination towards blacks (preventing from voting, segregation, no interracial marriage) and the rise of the KKK, the response to all of this was not to discriminate against Christianity.

Therefore we shouldn't discriminate against Islam because some Muslims are a threat to us.

New problem. New scenario.

BTW, the Mafia was just as Catholic as the KKK was Christian. So it makes no sense to say that Christianity would suffer due to the KKK since their arch enemies, the mafia, were also Christian.

Everyone was Christian.