Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Douggg]

Daniel 11:31 sure looks like the coming one 2 me. Daniel 11:35 mentions the end time. This is the anti christ. We're not talking about 70 ad there.

The time of the end doesn't come until Daniel 11:35. The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 is by Antiochus IV. Between the two verses is 2500 years of history. That includes testimony and spreading of the gospel.

Daniel 11:36 picks up in the end times with the willful king, the person after he has become the beast for that 42 months, blaspheming God, claiming to be greater than every god. The abomination of desolation for the end times is in Daniel 12.

 

[iamlamad]

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;



Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,


17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.




1 Corin 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.




Paul wrote in 1 Tim 4:1 the dead would be judged at His appearing.


John wrote in Rev. 11:18 the time of the dead being judged is come.


Paul wrote in 2 Tim. 4:1 at Christ’s “appearing and his kingdom”.


John wrote in Rev 11:15 “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord”


Paul wrote in 1 Corin 15:23-24 That at the time of His coming and the end, the kingdom would be delivered up.


Without using a predetermined theory on the order of Revelation as the basis, how can these scriptures be separated?

Common sense shows that all these things don't happen at this place of mention. some judging takes place far later, as in the battle of Armageddon and the white throne judgment. Therefore common sense tells me to look and see if this could be a prophecy of future events, rather than the events themselves. For example, how many times did John tell us, "babylon the great is fallen is fallen...?

Isaiah 21
Rev. 14
Rev 18

So which of these does the "fallen fallen" really happen? I think NONE Of them - or perhaps the last one: they are prophecy of the future event. I think it is all accomplished by Rev. 19.

 

[iamlamad]

Since the abomination of desolation will be setup to be worshiped on day 1185 in the middle part of the week, the seven years, and sacrifices already stopped by the transgression of desolation - then yes, the two witnesses will be present for 75 days after the abomination of desolation is setup, near the end of their 1260 day testimony.

Jesus Himself is not going to be physically present on earth when the Abomination of Desolation is first setup. It is by the two witnesses, preaching and testifying on His behalf, that the Jews will know to flee.

This is theory that cannot be backed up by scripture rightly divided. The man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is god on day 1260. This can be proven by scripture.

The two witnesses show up 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet that marks the exact midpoint, and they testify all the way to exactly 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. This too can be proven by scripture.

 

[Fusion77]

Since the abomination of desolation will be setup to be worshiped on day 1185 in the middle part of the week, the seven years, and sacrifices already stopped by the transgression of desolation - then yes, the two witnesses will be present for 75 days after the abomination of desolation is setup, near the end of their 1260 day testimony.

Jesus Himself is not going to be physically present on earth when the Abomination of Desolation is first setup. It is by the two witnesses, preaching and testifying on His behalf, that the Jews will know to flee.

Jesus won't be present physically but Ever present. Revelation 11:4 they're standing by the Lord of all the earth. Jesus is in the midst doing it all supernaturally. And the Holy Spirit Which are the 7 lamps, Zechariah 4:2which are the eyes of the Lord, Which is the Holy Spirit. Zechariah 4:2 Zechariah 4:10 Revelation 5:6 and Revelation 4:5. It's the Lamps on the lampstands that are providing the power, and Christ who stands in the midst. Not physically of course.

 

[Douggg]

Paul wrote in 1 Tim 4:1 the dead would be judged at His appearing.


John wrote in Rev. 11:18 the time of the dead being judged is come.

Those verses are looking at the conclusion to history. They are not pinpointing pretrib, postrib, midtrib the time of the rapture/resurrection in 1thessalonian4:13-18

There will be judgment of the saints for rewards. There will be judgment of the unsaved for rejecting Jesus. There will be judgment of them who had never heard the gospel. But not at one setting.

 

[iamlamad]

Whatever you want to call it. First the daily sacrifice is stopped by his forces Daniel 11:

the thing is, everyone is getting confused with Revelation, and trying to equate their timetables and events mostly on that. It's throwing everyone off.

That is because very few understand John's chronology. Many find His chronology does not fit their theory, so they choose to rearrange what John wrote to make it fit - like trying to drive a square peg into a round hole. Why not just find a theory that FITS?

 

[Douggg]

This is theory that cannot be backed up by scripture rightly divided. The man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is god on day 1260. This can be proven by scripture.

Not hardly. The transgression of desolation has to be before the abomination of desolation is made. The image is to be made 1335 days before the day Jesus returns to end the 7 years. Which the image AOD lands on day 1185.

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 12:6 is historical Revelation 12:5 the Man Child (Christ), caught up to the right hand of the Father. Revelation 12:14 is the 3.5 year period...it's more than 1260 days. They're (12:6 and 12:14) not speaking of the same event, or same period of time. Again, there's no way 1260 days could ever be exactly 3.5 years.

You are missing the intent of the Author. Chapter 12 is all about the DRAGON, and what he will be doing during the last half of the 70th week. God once told me to count how many times the dragon was mentioned: If I remember, it was 32 times. But straight from the lips of Jesus, the head of the church, He said to me, "I also CHOSE to show John how the dragon tried to kill me as a child. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' to John."

So the first five verses are written as a parentheses and not in ANY WAY part of John's chronology. Then verse 12 fits right after the 7th trumpet that marks (again HIS word, not mine) the exact midpoint. 12:6 would be seconds after the 7th trumpet.

OF COURSE 12:6 and 12/14 are about the same group from Judea that will flee into the mountains. OF COURSE 1260 and 3/5 years are one and the same: Daniel and Revelation both use a 360 day year with 30 days in each month.

 

[iamlamad]

Not hardly. The transgression of desolation has to be before the abomination of desolation is made. The image is to be made 1335 days before the day Jesus returns to end the 7 years. Which the image AOD lands on day 1185.

Except that simply does not fit scripture. It is therefore human reasoning.

The man of sin enters the temple on day 1260 and declares he is god. This stops the daily sacrifices and IS the abomination. It divides the week into two equal halves. This can be backed up with scripture.

 

[Fusion77]

The time of the end doesn't come until Daniel 11:35. The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 is by Antiochus IV. Between the two verses is 2500 years of history. That includes testimony and spreading of the gospel.

Daniel 11:36 picks up in the end times with the willful king, the person after he has become the beast for that 42 months, blaspheming God, claiming to be greater than every god. The abomination of desolation for the end times is in Daniel 12.

Yeah, I don't necessarily see that.

 

[Fusion77]

You are missing the intent of the Author. Chapter 12 is all about the DRAGON, and what he will be doing during the last half of the 70th week. God once told me to count how many times the dragon was mentioned: If I remember, it was 32 times. But straight from the lips of Jesus, the head of the church, He said to me, "I also CHOSE to show John how the dragon tried to kill me as a child. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' to John."

So the first five verses are written as a parentheses and not in ANY WAY part of John's chronology. Then verse 12 fits right after the 7th trumpet that marks (again HIS word, not mine) the exact midpoint. 12:6 would be seconds after the 7th trumpet.

OF COURSE 12:6 and 12/14 are about the same group from Judea that will flee into the mountains. OF COURSE 1260 and 3/5 years are one and the same: Daniel and Revelation both use a 360 day year with 30 days in each month.

The dragon represents satan you're seeing his fall, during the rebellion. Isaiah 14:12 son of the morning star. The angels are stars if heaven, these are fallen stars (angels). taking 1/3 of the angels to their fall.

 

[Douggg]

Except that simply does not fit scripture. It is therefore human reasoning.

I have given you the scripture regarding the abomination of desolation where the 1335 days is found. It is in Daniel 12:11-12

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The man of sin enters the temple on day 1260 and declares he is god. This stops the daily sacrifices and IS the abomination. It divides the week into two equal halves. This can be backed up with scripture.

No that does not match with Danie 11:11. The abomination of desolation is setup - in text. It is talking about an image, a statue, not a person going into the temple claiming to be God.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

And what exact scripture are you claiming says the man of sin enters the temple on day 1260? to declare that he is God. Copy and paste the day 1260 scripture you are claiming.

 

[Fusion77]

You are missing the intent of the Author. Chapter 12 is all about the DRAGON, and what he will be doing during the last half of the 70th week. God once told me to count how many times the dragon was mentioned: If I remember, it was 32 times. But straight from the lips of Jesus, the head of the church, He said to me, "I also CHOSE to show John how the dragon tried to kill me as a child. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' to John."

So the first five verses are written as a parentheses and not in ANY WAY part of John's chronology. Then verse 12 fits right after the 7th trumpet that marks (again HIS word, not mine) the exact midpoint. 12:6 would be seconds after the 7th trumpet.

OF COURSE 12:6 and 12/14 are about the same group from Judea that will flee into the mountains. OF COURSE 1260 and 3/5 years are one and the same: Daniel and Revelation both use a 360 day year with 30 days in each month.

Revelation 12:7 is yet a future event. We know satan has access to heaven. Zechariah 3:1 and Job 1:6.He is accusing right now. In Revelation 12:8 he's kicked out. Then he knows his time is short and goes to wage war and posses the antichrist. Revelation 12:12 comes down knowing he has a short time 3.5 years. When he get kicked out from heaven he knows.

 

[Fusion77]

I have given you the scripture regarding the abomination of desolation where the 1335 days is found. It is in Daniel 12:11-12

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



No that does not match with Danie 11:11. The abomination of desolation is setup - in text. It is talking about an image, not a person going into the temple claiming to be God.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Don't you understand yet? 1260 days would never divide the week in half. That's what the original says to cut exactly in half. Half of 7 is 3.5! 3.5 years is NEVER 1260 days according to the Hebrew calendar. The middle means in half. Not 3.4 and 3.6. Not 3.375 and 3.625 it means 3.5 and 3.5.

 

[Fusion77]

Except that simply does not fit scripture. It is therefore human reasoning.

The man of sin enters the temple on day 1260 and declares he is god. This stops the daily sacrifices and IS the abomination. It divides the week into two equal halves. This can be backed up with scripture.

You still don't understand 1260 days would NEVER devide the week in half according to the Hebrew calendar. 1260 days would Never be exactly 3.5 years.

We agree the 7 must be split in half. 3.5 and 3.5. Not 3.575 and 3.425.

 

[Douggg]

Don't you understand yet? 1260 days would never divide the week in half. That's what the original says to cut exactly in half. Half of 7 is 3.5! 3.5 years is NEVER 1260 days according to the Hebrew calendar. The middle means in half. Not 3.4 and 3.6. Not 3.375 and 3.625 it means 3.5 and 3.5.

Your child is out playing in the street. You shout out the front door - get out of the middle of the street! He looks back at you and says I am more than a foot off the middle (he is not on the exact equal distance from the curb on both sides middle).

Do you accept his argument, by what you meant by middle of the street?

3.5 years is not a biblical term. Half of 7years in the terms given is 1260 days. So the 7 years represent 2520 days. 3.5 years is not part of the picture.

Thus, it is possible to build a timeline from day 1 to day 2520.

 

[Fusion77]

Your child is out playing in the street. You shout out the front door - get out of the middle of the street! He looks back at you and says I am more than a foot off the middle (he is not on the exact equal distance from the curb on both sides middle).

Do you accept his argument, by what you meant by middle of the street?

3.5 years is not a biblical term. Half of 7years in the terms given is 1260 days. So the 7 years represent 2520 days. 3.5 years is not part of the picture.

Thus, it is possible to build a timeline from day 1 to day 2520.

I still think half is half as the original language states. It is there for a reason.

 

[Fusion77]

Your child is out playing in the street. You shout out the front door - get out of the middle of the street! He looks back at you and says I am more than a foot off the middle (he is not on the exact equal distance from the curb on both sides middle).

Do you accept his argument, by what you meant by middle of the street?

3.5 years is not a biblical term. Half of 7years in the terms given is 1260 days. So the 7 years represent 2520 days. 3.5 years is not part of the picture.

Thus, it is possible to build a timeline from day 1 to day 2520.

You keep saying 3.5 years isn't biblical. Yes, it does not say exactly 3.5 years but other scripture tells us, it is in fact 3.5 years or half of the 7 years, or 42 months.

 

[Fusion77]

Your child is out playing in the street. You shout out the front door - get out of the middle of the street! He looks back at you and says I am more than a foot off the middle (he is not on the exact equal distance from the curb on both sides middle).

Do you accept his argument, by what you meant by middle of the street?

3.5 years is not a biblical term. Half of 7years in the terms given is 1260 days. So the 7 years represent 2520 days. 3.5 years is not part of the picture.

Thus, it is possible to build a timeline from day 1 to day 2520.

Or we can just go with what God says . The covenant will be broken in the middle (1/2) part of the week. 3.5 plus 3.5 = 7

 

[Douggg]

You keep saying 3.5 years isn't biblical. Yes, it does not say exactly 3.5 years but other scripture tells us, it is in fact 3.5 years or half of the 7 years, or 42 months.

The seven years is 2520 days - work with that.

The 1290 days, the 1260 days, the 1335 days, the 3 1/2 days ... where those fit on a 2520 day timeline.