Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Douggg]

All this time I thought JESUS was the one to tell them to flee.
However, I believe the two witnesses show up 3 1/2 days before the abomination, so they could certainly warn the too.

When the person who becomes the Antichrist, King of Israel, and the 7 years begin. Also that will kick off the great falling away from Christianity as many will become convinced that Jews (Judaism) was right all along.

So the new testament will wane in popularity, not that the Jew read it anyway, to know what Jesus said in Matthew 24.

It will be Jesus's two witnesses that will be preaching and prophesying to the nation of Israel - warning them not to put their faith in their new messiah, King of Israel. Their testimony period is the 1260 days of the first half of the seven years.

 

[iamlamad]

No, can't work that way, because the full end times seven years have to be in Revelation 12 in order for the crowns to work out.

In Revelation 13, the heads don't have their crowns. Because with 42 months to go, king #7, the little horn, will have been killed, ending the prophesy of the 7 kings.

Wow! I certainly don't follow you here. Care to expand this section?

 

[Fusion77]

Someone had a vision a long time ago and he SAW teh two witnesses and they had names written on them: Enoch and Elijah.

How about what the bible says on it. For real! Not just a vision but the bible pointing it out to support that vision.

 

[iamlamad]

No, I am not the one confused in this discussion. You are all over the place. Revelation 12:6 is future. The 1260 days is Revelation 12:6 has nothing to do with back at the time of Jesus.

Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days is the first half of the seven years
Revelation 12:14, the time, times, half times is basically the second half of the seven years.

Together they make up the seven years. Which the crowns are on the 7 heads of the dragon in Revelation 12, but not in Revelation 13, and Revelation 17. Signifying that with 7 years before Jesus returns, the seventh king, the little horn has come to power, fulfilling the prophesy of the seven kings in Revelation 17, as leader of the EU, the end times Roman Empire.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

While the first 5 verses of Revelation 12 are historic, and identify that the woman is Israel, the status of the crowns on the heads and horns on the dragon is end times.

I agree in part: certainly NONE of the 1260 days or 42 months given in Revelation were back in Jesus time: ALL are future.

I disagree on the 1260 days of fleeing: they are CERTAINLY for the last 3 1/2 years. They are told to flee when they see the abomination, the event that divides the week.

There is a DIFFERENCE between the Dragon and the Beast. I think you are putting WAY too much emphasis on crowns. Care to give us more information there?

 

[Fusion77]

When the person who becomes the Antichrist, King of Israel, and the 7 years begin. Also that will kick off the great falling away from Christianity as many will become convinced that Jews (Judaism) was right all along.

So the new testament will wane in popularity, not that the Jew read it anyway, to know what Jesus said in Matthew 24.

It will be Jesus's two witnesses that will be preaching and prophesying to the nation of Israel - warning them not to put their faith in their new messiah, King of Israel. Their testimony period is the 1260 days of the first half of the seven years.

They're not going to be warning the people to flee. The people in the West Bank (Judea are in trouble), people are already warning them about this coming calamity.

The Witnesses will point out the prophecies of the bible, to testify of Christ. They will witness on His behalf. Yes, and discredit the anti christ. The words of the prophets will begin to "speak" to the people of Israel at that time.

 

[iamlamad]

Again the website is cgsf.org click on Roman Hebrew calendar...it's ecclesiastical calendar.

you can know when the leap year are for years and years ahead of time 2019, 2022, 2024, 2027

Sorry, but in Daniel and Revelation they ALWAYS use a 360 day calendar, with 12 each 30 day months.

 

[Douggg]

By the way, what divides the week according to Daniel, is the ceasing of the daily sacrifices. So WHAT event will do that? I am convinced Paul nailed it: the man of sin entering the temple and declaring he is god.
And that will cause the sacrifices to cease, because they will need to clean the temple - but they never get a chance. So him entering the temple is the first abomination - AND the ceasing of the sacrifices.

The Antichrist entering the temple, sitting claiming to be God is not called an abomination in the bible. It is called the transgression of desolation - in Daniel 8. It does involve stopping the daily sacrifice.

The transgression of desolation is a person who has taken an action to transgress - i.e. violate - the covenant to a extreme level. Which claiming to be God - is the ultimate transgression.

The abomination of desolation comes later. It is a thing, an image, an idol, that is setup in temple. It will be the image of the slain and come back to life man of sin, who has become the beast.

So first comes the transgression of desolation, revealing the man of sin. The person is killed, then comes back to life as the beast. Which then, the abomination of desolation is made and placed in the temple. Two different events, although related.

 

[iamlamad]

Of course it's the power of Gods holy people. An invasion...shattering, scattering breaking apart their power.

I agree: today they trust in THEIR power. God is going to SHATTER their power until they have NONE. I Jewish boy recently died and went to heaven - but God sent him back. He saw the end while there. He said when the nations come again Israel at the end, their power (IDF) lasts 2 days - then they are defenseless. But then their MESSIAH came.

 

[Fusion77]

I agree in part: certainly NONE of the 1260 days or 42 months given in Revelation were back in Jesus time: ALL are future.

I disagree on the 1260 days of fleeing: they are CERTAINLY for the last 3 1/2 years. They are told to flee when they see the abomination, the event that divides the week.

There is a DIFFERENCE between the Dragon and the Beast. I think you are putting WAY too much emphasis on crowns. Care to give us more information there?

Revelation 12:6 is historical Revelation 12:5 the Man Child (Christ), caught up to the right hand of the Father. Revelation 12:14 is the 3.5 year period...it's more than 1260 days. They're (12:6 and 12:14) not speaking of the same event, or same period of time. Again, there's no way 1260 days could ever be exactly 3.5 years.

 

[iamlamad]

See you're confused. And rightly so, a person could study this for 1000 years and not understand. Revelation 12:6 is a past event. It happened around the time the (son of) Man Child was caught up to the right hand of the father. All other references to 42 months or time times and half time, are the same event (at least the ones I spoke of earlier). The thing is, they're all more than 1290 days. Well anyway, there's no way they're 1260 days according to any calendar. Therefore, Revelation 12:14 isn't the same event as Revelation 12:6 it appears to be the same, but is not.

This is dream land. Or the land of myth. MOST of Revelation is about FUTURE events, not past events. There are a few exceptions, but NOT the 3.5 year periods of time: they are all for the FUTURE 70th week of Daniel.

 

[Fusion77]

The Antichrist entering the temple, sitting claiming to be God is not called an abomination in the bible. It is called the transgression of desolation - in Daniel 8. It does involve stopping the daily sacrifice.

The transgression of desolation is a person who has taken an action to transgress - i.e. violate - the covenant to a extreme level. Which claiming to be God - is the ultimate transgression.

The abomination of desolation comes later. It is a thing, an image, an idol, that is setup in temple. It will be the image of the slain and come back to life man of sin, who has become the beast.

So first comes the transgression of desolation, revealing the man of sin. The person is killed, then comes back to life as the beast. Which then, the abomination of desolation is made and placed in the temple. Two different events, although related.

Whatever you want to call it. First the daily sacrifice is stopped by his forces Daniel 11:

I disagree. From the abomination to the 7th vial that ends the week will be 1260 days. Therefore they MUST begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint. How amazing, John introduces them in 11:3 and the abomination or midpoint is the 7th trumpet in 11:15. I believe there is 3 1/2 days between those two verses.

the thing is, everyone is getting confused with Revelation, and trying to equate their timetables and events mostly on that. It's throwing everyone off.

 

[Douggg]

They're not going to be warning the people to flee. The people in the West Bank (Judea are in trouble), people are already warning them about this coming calamity.

The Witnesses will point out the prophecies of the bible, to testify of Christ. They will witness on His behalf. Yes, and discredit the anti christ. The words of the prophets will begin to "speak" to the people of Israel at that time.

The Jews (Judaism) currently aren't listening. And if you go to their countermssionary websites - they will bluntly tell you anything that is written in the new testament is irrelavent to Judaism.

And for a while they are not going to be paying attention to the two witnesses, either, because the Jews will be enthralled with their new messiah, and gloating over Christianity having been proven wrong (it will seem that way). Thinking they have entered the messianic era.

But when the Antichrist goes into the temple and claims to be God - that's when the Jews are going pay attention to the two witnesses, who tell them to start fleeing Jerusalem for what is shortly about to take place.

 

[Douggg]

Whatever you want to call it. First the daily sacrifice is stopped by his forces Daniel 11:

The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 (by Antiochus IV) is not end times, but a preview of what the end times abomination of desolation will be.

 

[Fusion77]

I find your theory hard to believe since God gave us TWO counts of 1260 days for the last half of the week. And if I am not mistaken, the Hebrew word translated "midst" means to divide in half. I think they knew how to divide back then.

I agree. If you look in the original language, it's real clear that middle part means 1/2. 7 cut in half is 3.5 years or 42 months.

 

[Fusion77]

The Jews (Judaism) currently aren't listening. And if you go to their countermssionary websites - they will bluntly tell you anything that is written in the new testament is irrelavent to Judaism.

And for a while they are not going to be paying attention to the two witnesses, either, because the Jews will be enthralled with their new messiah, and gloating over Christianity having been proven wrong (it will seem that way). Thinking they have entered the messianic era.

But when the Antichrist goes into the temple and claims to be God - that's when the Jews are going pay attention to the two witnesses, who tell them to start fleeing Jerusalem for what is shortly about to take place.

God will empower them to stand against to power of the mm of sin. It's Gods Spirit and Christ Himself who will be involved. The witnesses are really just 2 vessels. I'm telling you they'll be there after the stop of the sacrifice and after the abomination of desolation.

 

[Fusion77]

The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11 (by Antiochus IV) is not end times, but a preview of what the end times abomination of desolation will be.

Daniel 11:31 sure looks like the coming one 2 me. Daniel 11:35 mentions the end time. This is the anti christ. We're not talking about 70 ad there.

 

[iamlamad]

Daniel 11:31 sure looks like the coming one 2 me. Daniel 11:35 mentions the end time. This is the anti christ. We're not talking about 70 ad there.

I believe Daniel switches from Antiochus to the end in verse 36.

 

[Douggg]

God will empower them to stand against to power of the mm of sin. It's Gods Spirit and Christ Himself who will be involved. The witnesses are really just 2 vessels. I'm telling you they'll be there after the stop of the sacrifice and after the abomination of desolation.

Since the abomination of desolation will be setup to be worshiped on day 1185 in the middle part of the week, the seven years, and sacrifices already stopped by the transgression of desolation - then yes, the two witnesses will be present for 75 days after the abomination of desolation is setup, near the end of their 1260 day testimony.

Jesus Himself is not going to be physically present on earth when the Abomination of Desolation is first setup. It is by the two witnesses, preaching and testifying on His behalf, that the Jews will know to flee.

 

[Postvieww]

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;



Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,


17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.




1 Corin 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.




Paul wrote in 1 Tim 4:1 the dead would be judged at His appearing.


John wrote in Rev. 11:18 the time of the dead being judged is come.


Paul wrote in 2 Tim. 4:1 at Christ’s “appearing and his kingdom”.


John wrote in Rev 11:15 “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord”


Paul wrote in 1 Corin 15:23-24 That at the time of His coming and the end, the kingdom would be delivered up.


Without using a predetermined theory on the order of Revelation as the basis, how can these scriptures be separated?

 

[iamlamad]

I agree. If you look in the original language, it's real clear that middle part means 1/2. 7 cut in half is 3.5 years or 42 months.

Yes, proven by 7 different verses of scripture.