Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Luke17:37]

The Trumpet of Matthew 24 will not be sounded by an angel ,it is different than the 7 trumpets of Revelation and fit perfectly with what Paul describe.

The trumpet of Matthew 24 is not necessarily different from the last, or the 7th, trumpet in Revelation. It makes perfect sense to me.

Revelation 11:15–19 (NKJV)
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become [past tense] the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have [past tense] taken Your great power and reigned [past tense].
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come [present tense],
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged [present tense],
And that You should reward [present tense] Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy [present tense] those who destroy the earth.”
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

How could God be reigning on earth (and it be the time to judge/reward the prophets and saints) if this seventh trumpet is not the same trumpet that heralds Christ's glorious appearing?

There's no point in arguing whether a trumpet is sounded by God or an angel. If the trumpet is on the angel's lips, he is sounding it by the authority of God, so it is "the trumpet of God." There's no contradiction.

 

[Riberra]

The trumpet of Matthew 24 is not necessarily different from the last, or the 7th, trumpet in Revelation. It makes perfect sense to me.

Revelation 11:15–19 (NKJV)
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become [past tense] the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have [past tense] taken Your great power and reigned [past tense].
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come [present tense],
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged [present tense],
And that You should reward [present tense] Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy [present tense] those who destroy the earth.”
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

How could God be reigning on earth (and it be the time to judge/reward the prophets and saints) if this seventh trumpet is not the same trumpet that heralds Christ's glorious appearing?

There's no point in arguing whether a trumpet is sounded by God or an angel. If the trumpet is on the angel's lips, he is sounding it by the authority of God, so it is "the trumpet of God." There's no contradiction.

In Matthew 24:31 this is not an angel who sound the trumpet... but the HE who shall send his angels... to gather...
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,.....and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Luke17:37]

In Matthew 24:31 this is not an angel who sound the trumpet...
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I was just referring to the conversation you were having with iamlamad. So are you are agreeing with me that Matthew 24:31 could be the seventh trumpet of Revelation? If not, well, we disagree.

 

[Riberra]

I was just referring to the conversation you were having with iamlamad.

The coversation that i have with Lamad is that Paul talk about only one Trump of God that will sound contrary to his claims.
The Trump of God that Paul talk about will sound unto the Coming of the Lord and is not sounded by an angel.This correspond to the trumpet mentioned unto the Coming of Jesus in Glory AFTER the Tribulation mentinoned in Matthew 24:29-31

So are you are agreeing with me that Matthew 24:31 could be the seventh trumpet of Revelation? If not, well, we disagree.

After that the last of the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation will sound.... the 7 vials Full of the WRATH of God will be poured out possibly by the same 7 angels who have just finished their mission to sound the 7 trumpets previously.


Revelation 15King James Version (KJV)

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
......
......
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

 

[Luke17:37]

The coversation that i have with Lamad is that Paul talk about only one Trump of God that will sound contrary to his claims.
That Trump of God that Paul talk about will sound unto the Coming of the Lord and is not sounded by an angel.This correspond to the trumpet mentioned unto the Coming of Jesus in Glory AFTER the tribulation Mentinoned in Matthew 24:20-31

Luke17:37:
"So are you are agreeing with me that Matthew 24:31 could be the seventh trumpet of Revelation? If not, well, we disagree."

After that the last of the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation will sound.... the 7 vials of the WRATH of God will be poured out -probably- by the same angels who have just finished their role to sound the 7 trumpets previously

Well, I guess we disagree, because I currently believe that the bowls (or vials) are parallel to the trumpets and not consecutive.

If you compare the trumpets and bowls, they seem to be two sides to the same things. For example, the second trumpet and second bowl both affect the sea.

Also, the Lord has reigned and the time has come to reward the saints at the seventh trumpet. It doesn't make sense to me that it would say this if there were still seven bowls to go. So, I have no problem believing the Matthew 24 trumpet is probably the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Maybe it's not (time will tell), but I don't see a legitimate reason why it can't be.

 

[Riberra]

Well, I guess we disagree, because I currently believe that the bowls (or vials) are parallel to the trumpets and not consecutive.

If you compare the trumpets and bowls, they seem to be two sides to the same things. For example, the second trumpet and second bowl both affect the sea.

If the INTENSITY of the effect matters then they are obviously different.

-At the second trumpet only 1/3 part of the sea became blood; and only 1/3 part of the sea creature died.

-When the second bowl will be poured out the whole sea became blood and every living creature in the sea die.

Revelation 8
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 16
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Also, the Lord has reigned and the time has come to reward the saints at the seventh trumpet. It doesn't make sense to me that it would say this if there were still seven bowls to go. So, I have no problem believing the Matthew 24 trumpet is probably the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Maybe it's not (time will tell), but I don't see a legitimate reason why it can't be.

Based on the demonstration that i have made above it may be a good occasion to consider the possibilty that the Trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 is not the 7 Th trumpet mentioned in Revelation.

 

[Luke17:37]

If the INTENSITY of the effect matters then they are obviously different.

-At the second trumpet only 1/3 part of the sea became blood; and only 1/3 part of the sea creature died.

-When the second bowl will be poured out the whole sea became blood and every living creature in the sea die.

Revelation 8
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 16
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


Based on the demonstration that i have made above it may be a good occasion to consider the possibilty that the Trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 is not the 7 Th trumpet mentioned in Revelation.

If a large amount of crude oil pours into the sea, and everything in the sea mixed with crude oil dies, it does not mean that everything in the entire ocean (as in, all the oceans on the planet) is dead. There is no contradiction. I'll stick with my theory for now.

 

[Fusion77]

The coversation that i have with Lamad is that Paul talk about only one Trump of God that will sound contrary to his claims.
The Trump of God that Paul talk about will sound unto the Coming of the Lord and is not sounded by an angel.This correspond to the trumpet mentioned unto the Coming of Jesus in Glory AFTER the Tribulation mentinoned in Matthew 24:29-31


After that the last of the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation will sound.... the 7 vials Full of the WRATH of God will be poured out possibly by the same 7 angels who have just finished their mission to sound the 7 trumpets previously.


Revelation 15King James Version (KJV)

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
......
......
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Matthew 24:31 sound of a trumpet. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 trumpet of God 1 Corinthians 15:52. Last trumpet We've got the sound of a trumpet, The trumpet of God, and the last trumpet. Revelation 8:2 says the trumpets were given to the angels. Okay, so who gave the angels the trumpets? Obviously God. Well if He didn't hand the trumpets to the angels, He obviously created them, so they're His. Hence the trumpet of God blown by the angel Revelation 11:15 all the same, because of course, that's the last one we know about.(last trumpet). So they're all the same (or sure seem to be). Whether we're caught away, or collected up, what's the difference. Let's not strain a gnat to swallow a camel. I think we ought to consider the more obvious.

Look guys, the Lord is not intent in hiding these things from us.
These basic things are here for the understanding. In Revelation 8:2 the angels are given the trumpets. They are the trumpets of God. Of course, the angels sound the trumpets of God.

 

[Luke17:37]

Matthew 24:31 sound of a trumpet. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 trumpet of God 1 Corinthians 15:52. Last trumpet We've got the sound of a trumpet, The trumpet of God, and the last trumpet. Revelation 8:2 says the trumpets were given to the angels. Okay, so who gave the angels the trumpets? Obviously God. Well if He didn't hand the trumpets to the angels, He obviously created them, so they're His. Hence the trumpet of God blown by the angel Revelation 11:15 all the same, because of course, that's the last one we know about.(last trumpet). So they're all the same (or sure seem to be). Whether we're caught away, or collected up, what's the difference. Let's not strain a gnat to swallow a camel. I think we ought to consider the more obvious.

Look guys, the Lord is not intent in hiding these things from us.
These basic things are here for the understanding. In Revelation 8:2 the angels are given the trumpets. They are the trumpets of God. Of course, the angels sound the trumpets of God.

Exactly.

 

[Luke17:37]

Matthew 24:31 sound of a trumpet. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 trumpet of God 1 Corinthians 15:52. Last trumpet We've got the sound of a trumpet, The trumpet of God, and the last trumpet. Revelation 8:2 says the trumpets were given to the angels. Okay, so who gave the angels the trumpets? Obviously God. Well if He didn't hand the trumpets to the angels, He obviously created them, so they're His. Hence the trumpet of God blown by the angel Revelation 11:15 all the same, because of course, that's the last one we know about.(last trumpet). So they're all the same (or sure seem to be). Whether we're caught away, or collected up, what's the difference. Let's not strain a gnat to swallow a camel. I think we ought to consider the more obvious.

Look guys, the Lord is not intent in hiding these things from us.
These basic things are here for the understanding. In Revelation 8:2 the angels are given the trumpets. They are the trumpets of God. Of course, the angels sound the trumpets of God.

What you are pointing out is what I've been trying to say--just because every passage doesn't include every possible detail, it doesn't mean they are necessarily talking about different events.

For example:
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have different eyewitness accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus. They don't contradict each other even though they don't all point out the exact same details. Nobody would argue that Jesus was crucified four times.

 

[Fusion77]

Oh, and concerning the seals, trumpets and vials...I think those are mostly misunderstood. Revelation 1:19 talks about past, present and future.

I listen to a man on the radio who believes 5 trumpets have sounded already. He related world events to each trumpet or seal. I'll say, he makes a pretty good case. Not saying I necessarily agree though. My point is, we need to distinguish the past from the present and future in the book of Revelation. I'm pretty sure at least some of the seals have been opened, again, not positive though. Most (not all though) Everything except the seals, trumpets, and vials can be understood fairly well...provided we have a good knowledge of the rest of the bible.


I guess my point being. I see a lot of

What you are pointing out is what I've been trying to say--just because every passage doesn't include every possible detail, it doesn't mean they are necessarily talking about different events.

For example:
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have different eyewitness accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus. They don't contradict each other even though they don't all point out the exact same details. Nobody would argue that Jesus was crucified four times.

 

[Fusion77]

What you are pointing out is what I've been trying to say--just because every passage doesn't include every possible detail, it doesn't mean they are necessarily talking about different events.

For example:
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have different eyewitness accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus. They don't contradict each other even though they don't all point out the exact same details. Nobody would argue that Jesus was crucified four times.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Luke17:37]

Oh, and concerning the seals, trumpets and vials...I think those are mostly misunderstood. Revelation 1:19 talks about past, present and future.

I listen to a man on the radio who believes 5 trumpets have sounded already. He related world events to each trumpet or seal. I'll say, he makes a pretty good case. Not saying I necessarily agree though. My point is, we need to distinguish the past from the present and future in the book of Revelation. I'm pretty sure at least some of the seals have been opened, again, not positive though. Most (not all though) Everything except the seals, trumpets, and vials can be understood fairly well...provided we have a good knowledge of the rest of the bible.

Fusion77, absolutely.

I shared my theory with the rest of the regulars on here so I might as well share it with you, too.

I think it's possible that the Divine Commander's battle plans at Jericho could be prescriptive of the battle plans at the end. The Bible doesn't say this of course, but it's my theory, and I'm going to stick with it unless I live long enough to see that doesn't match up with reality. For seven days they circled Jericho, but on the seventh day, they circled the city seven times before the walls collapsed and Jericho was destroyed. So this is how I see the Tribulation:

Year 1 - Seal 1
Year 2 - Seal 2
Year 3 - Seal 3
Year 4 - Seal 4 (Beast assumes control at about the 3.5 year mark and begins to overcome the saints)
Year 5 - Seal 5 (The first martyrs are given their white robes and told to wait until the full number come in)
Year 6 - Seal 6
Year 7 - Seal 7 = {Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, Trumpet 3/Bowl 3, Trumpet 4/Bowl 4, Trumpet 5/Bowl 5, Trumpet 6/Bowl 6, Trumpet 7/Bowl 7}

Jesus describes the beginning judgments as "the beginning of birth pains," which seem to correspond to the early seals. All these trumpets and bowls in one final year could be like the end of woman's labor--strong, nearly constant pain.

 

[BABerean2]

What you are pointing out is what I've been trying to say--just because every passage doesn't include every possible detail, it doesn't mean they are necessarily talking about different events.

Nice work, Sister.

Have you ever noticed the following...



Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The Book of Revelation is made up of a series of overlapping visions.

We have the Second Coming in chapter 6, and 11, and 14, and 16, and 19, etc.

I learned this from someone who was on this forum when I first came here.

He was one of the most humble people I have ever had the privilege to meet here.

Thanks Jack.
......................................................

I am glad you are here, Sister. Keep up the good work.

Be willing to listen to others and make your understanding align itself with scripture.

That may require you to let go of some things you have believed in the past...
.

 

[Luke17:37]

Nice work, Sister.

Have you ever noticed the following...



Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The Book of Revelation is made up of a series of overlapping visions.

We have the Second Coming in chapter 6, and 11, and 14, and 16, and 19, etc.

I learned this from someone who was on this forum when I first came here.

He was one of the most humble people I have ever had the privilege to meet here.

Thanks Jack.
......................................................

I am glad you are here, Sister. Keep up the good work.

Be willing to listen to others and make your understanding align itself with scripture.

That may require you to let go of some things you have believed in the past...
.

Thanks, brother.

That's cool!

It might be that Jesus returns in Seal 6, but it also might be that the men of the earth (of every social status) think He's about to return. They know all about the Lamb and His wrath, since the Christians have been testifying about Him as their blood is being spilled all over the world (e.g., in Seal 5).

We can't be dogmatic unless the seals, trumpets, and bowls actually take place before our eyes. Personally, I think they are all future and mostly literal. I love talking about it and hearing people's different theories. The main thing is, I expect we'll be there unless we die first.

 

[Riberra]

If a large amount of crude oil pours into the sea, and everything in the sea mixed with crude oil dies, it does not mean that everything in the entire ocean (as in, all the oceans on the planet) is dead. There is no contradiction.I'll stick with my theory for now.

No problem.
We at least agree that the Trump of God will not sound before the Tribulation.

 

[Riberra]

Matthew 24:31 sound of a trumpet. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 trumpet of God 1 Corinthians 15:52. Last trumpet We've got the sound of a trumpet, The trumpet of God, and the last trumpet. Revelation 8:2 says the trumpets were given to the angels. Okay, so who gave the angels the trumpets? Obviously God. Well if He didn't hand the trumpets to the angels, He obviously created them, so they're His. Hence the trumpet of God blown by the angel Revelation 11:15 all the same, because of course, that's the last one we know about.(last trumpet). So they're all the same (or sure seem to be). Whether we're caught away, or collected up, what's the difference. Let's not strain a gnat to swallow a camel. I think we ought to consider the more obvious.

Look guys, the Lord is not intent in hiding these things from us.
These basic things are here for the understanding. In Revelation 8:2 the angels are given the trumpets. They are the trumpets of God. Of course, the angels sound the trumpets of God.

The point is not if the angels can sounds the trumpets assigned by God for them to sound DURING the Tribulation.

The point is that this is not an angel who sound the trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:30 that will sound AFTER the Tribulation UNTO the Coming of Jesus with power and greath glory .

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days ....

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels /with a great sound of a trumpet,/ and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Fusion77]

The point is not if the angels can sounds the trumpets assigned by God for them to sound DURING the Tribulation.

The point is that this is not an angel who sound the trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:30 that will sound AFTER the Tribulation UNTO the Coming of Jesus with power and greath glory .

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days ....

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels /with a great sound of a trumpet,/ and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

how do you know this is not an angel? All it says is the sound. Revelation 11:15 tells of who blows the trumpet to make the sound. So scripture interprets scripture.

 

[Luke17:37]

No problem.
We at least agree that the Trump of God will not sound before the Tribulation.

We do.

 

[Fusion77]

Fusion77, absolutely.

I shared my theory with the rest of the regulars on here so I might as well share it with you, too.

I think it's possible that the Divine Commander's battle plans at Jericho could be prescriptive of the battle plans at the end. The Bible doesn't say this of course, but it's my theory, and I'm going to stick with it unless I live long enough to see that doesn't match up with reality. For seven days they circled Jericho, but on the seventh day, they circled the city seven times before the walls collapsed and Jericho was destroyed. So this is how I see the Tribulation:

Year 1 - Seal 1
Year 2 - Seal 2
Year 3 - Seal 3
Year 4 - Seal 4 (Beast assumes control at about the 3.5 year mark and begins to overcome the saints)
Year 5 - Seal 5 (The first martyrs are given their white robes and told to wait until the full number come in)
Year 6 - Seal 6
Year 7 - Seal 7 = {Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, Trumpet 3/Bowl 3, Trumpet 4/Bowl 4, Trumpet 5/Bowl 5, Trumpet 6/Bowl 6, Trumpet 7/Bowl 7}

Jesus describes the beginning judgments as "the beginning of birth pains," which seem to correspond to the early seals. All these trumpets and bowls in one final year could be like the end of woman's labor--strong, nearly constant pain.

Thanks for sharing!

I haven't had as much trouble with the 6th and 7th trumpets though. Mostly because there's a time line of sorts given in Revelation 11:2-3. Here we see 42 months and 1260 days. Because of this, for me, I safely assume this is during the Abomination of desolation. Therefore, I use Daniel among other books as a reference. Daniel 12:11 tells us 1290 days exactly. Luke 21:24 of course, describing the same events of Matthew 24:15, and beyond.



So I've always considered the abomination of desolation happening after the 6th trumpet. Daniel 11:21-45 speaks of the anti christ and his campaigns, and ultimate demise, to an extent. It speaks of (his), army of the north, with some resistance from the army of the south. In Revelation 9:15 the sixth trumpet speaks of some sort of an army that destroys 1/3 part of man. Because this seems to eminate from the Euprathes river, I don't see that as the army of the north or south.


I guess what I'm saying is I think the 6th trumpet will be before the abomination of desolation and the prophesying of the 2 witnesses, when they're clothed in sackcloth.