Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Postvieww

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Not even a good argument would work with you. For example, one could say, "john SAW the raptured church in heaven, in Rev. 7, before he even started the 70th week.

Probably your first response would be "prove with scripture that this great crowd too large to number is really the raptured church." Next, you might say, "revelation is not in chronological order, so even if that was the church, it proves nothing."

How close did I come?

All I can say is, if that really IS the raptured church, your theories fail.

No, I would point out one of the elders said “these are they which came out of great tribulation” Rev 7:14. Then I would ask you to point out which scripture said they were a raptured church.


You do realize if they are not a raptured church your theories fail.


I plead guilty to trying to keep this discussion in the bible.
 
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Riberra

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Riberra, the word "last" in terms of quantity ALWAYS implies more than one. If Paul was implying the last trump as the trump of God, he would of revealed at least a first trump.

You got problems understand basic logic.

1 Corinthians 15 has the last trump. 1 Thessalonians 4 has the trump of God.

Based on your "logic" the trump of God that will sound the rising of those who are dead in Christ and our caught up to meet Jesus in the air that Paul talk about to the Thessalonians cannot be the Last Trump that Paul is talking about to the Corinthians..... Thus by your "logic" you are implying that the changing into immortality of the living believers will not happen at the same time that the rising of those who have died in Christ and our caught up to meet Jesus in the air...Is that right ?

Plus the fact the elects being gather from heaven in Matthew 24:31 clearly indicates that passage not being the rapture.

Another simple logic you can't grasp.

If you can't prove a post tribulation rapture anywhere, that's find. I can't either. LOL! No one can!
Prove us with scripture rather than by your speculative "logic" that Jesus will come BEFORE the Tribulation with a sound of a trumpet to rise the dead in Christ and change the living into immortality and take them together to the Third Heaven where God reside ---- Rather than being taken to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air in the First Heaven at His Coming after the Tribulation... Good luck. LOL !
 
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iamlamad

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Based on your "logic" the trump of God that will sound the rising of those who are dead in Christ and our caught up to meet Jesus in the air that Paul talk about to the Thessalonians cannot be the Last Trump that Paul is talking about to the Corinthians..... Thus by your "logic" you are implying that the changing into immortality of the living believers will not happen at the same time that the rising of those who have died in Christ and our caught up to meet Jesus in the air...Is that right ?


Prove us with scripture rather than by your speculative "logic" that Jesus will come BEFORE the Tribulation with a sound of a trumpet to rise the dead in Christ and change the living into immortality and take them together to the Third Heaven where God reside ---- Rather than being taken to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air in the First Heaven at His Coming after the Tribulation... Good luck. LOL !
Do you think a "trump of God" can be sounded by an angel?
 
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Riberra

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Do you think a "trump of God" can be sounded by an angel?
Why are you placing the Trump of God betwen a coma " " ?Paul is not placing it betwen a coma" "

Do you think that the Trump of God will be sounded by a human during a Jewish festival BEFORE the Tribulation ?

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
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iamlamad

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Why are you placing the Trump of God betwen a coma " " ?Paul is not placing it betwen a coma" "

Do you think that the Trump of God will be sounded by a human during a Jewish festival BEFORE the Tribulation ?

1 Thessalonians 4

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Another sidestep. I guess you can't answer that question.

"..." means QUOTES. I was QUOTING from verse 16: "Do you think a "trump of God" can be sounded by an angel?"

My answer is NO! A resounding NO! The "trump of God" will not be sounded by any human.

(See? I have no trouble answering questions.)
 
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Riberra

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Another sidestep. I guess you can't answer that question.

"..." means QUOTES. I was QUOTING from verse 16: "Do you think a "trump of God" can be sounded by an angel?"
Then you are not quoting verse 16 correctly.Paul wrote ,"and with the trump of God"...not with "a trump of God".

My answer is NO! A resounding NO! The "trump of God" will not be sounded by any human.

(See? I have no trouble answering questions.)
That make a change .But that does not stop you to ask strange questions.

Returning to verse 16 ....there is no mention that this is an angel who is sounding the trump of God; that must answer your question. What is your point ?Lets see where you try to lead us... I never said that an angel will sound the Trump of God.Are you trying to build up one of your usual strawman ?

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
 
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Luke17:37

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I still don't see a Rapture. Its much more scriptures and verses to connect with. Its only one time the saints well meet the Lord in the air...one time! Not two, but again one time. Paul say in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. This is the first Resurrection, and only the saints well be able to meet the Lord in the air. So if someone was going to be taken, this would be the event.

Yes, you are correct: there's just one gathering of the saints in the sky--at the first resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). The resurrection-gathering occurs at the return of Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 1 Corinithians 15:23). I am sorry if anything I said confused you!

I would really prefer to use the word "gathering" for the elect who are alive, since "rapture" has so many connotations that I think go against Scripture.

The future "taken" in Luke/Matthew, which I was telling you about before, are those who will die and become food for vultures when Jesus appears--not the Christians. (The Scripture referring to the taken and left is sometimes used out of context to suggest a pre-tribulation rapture, but in its proper context, the taken are clearly the wicked.)

According to the parable of the tares, first the wicked will be killed and then the righteous will be gathered:

Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

In Isaiah 26, which is about Jesus' return and the beginning of His earthly reign, Scripture says something consistent:

Isaiah 26:20-21
Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain.

(It reminds me of the way God had the Israelites stay inside their houses with the doors closed while He carried out the killing of the firstborns of Egypt.)

God bless!
 
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Luke17:37

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Those folks in Matthew 27:52-53 immediately went to heaven.
There is no passage that says this.

Christ could not ascend into heaven yet because He still had unfinished business to do. 1) He had to descend into hell to defeat death and obtain the keys to hell,
There is no passage that says this either. (And Jesus proved He defeated death when He rose from the dead!)

Did you not know any of this?
Do you understand at all...

Would you address your wife or your mother or your daughter the way you address me? (I am not expecting an answer.)
 
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iamlamad

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Then you are not quoting verse 16 correctly.Paul wrote ,"and with the trump of God"...not with "a trump of God".


That make a change .But that does not stop you to ask strange questions.

Returning to verse 16 ....there is no mention that this is an angel who is sounding the trump of God; that must answer your question. What is your point ?Lets see where you try to lead us... I never said that an angel will sound the Trump of God.Are you trying to build up one of your usual strawman ?

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

One thing it means, if nothing else, it absolutely cannot be the same thing as the 7th trumpet in Revelation that some here are always peddling. If it is not you, it will be one of the readers. If not you, then congratulations on that. It is silly to think that Paul's last trump is the 7th trumpet.

By the way, I don't use strawmen. My beliefs stand firmly on the word of God.

One day you are going to believe very firmly on a pretrib rapture, since it is truth and it will happen that way. I want you to believe in it before you are left behind. I don't want you or any other believer to miss God's planned escape.
 
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iamlamad

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Yes, you are correct: there's just one gathering of the saints in the sky--at the first resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). The resurrection-gathering occurs at the return of Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 1 Corinithians 15:23). I am sorry if anything I said confused you!

I would really prefer to use the word "gathering" for the elect who are alive, since "rapture" has so many connotations that I think go against Scripture.

The future "taken" in Luke/Matthew, which I was telling you about before, are those who will die and become food for vultures when Jesus appears--not the Christians. (The Scripture referring to the taken and left is sometimes used out of context to suggest a pre-tribulation rapture, but in its proper context, the taken are clearly the wicked.)

According to the parable of the tares, first the wicked will be killed and then the righteous will be gathered:

Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

In Isaiah 26, which is about Jesus' return and the beginning of His earthly reign, Scripture says something consistent:

Isaiah 26:20-21
Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain.

(It reminds me of the way God had the Israelites stay inside their houses with the doors closed while He carried out the killing of the firstborns of Egypt.)

God bless!
It is totally incorrect to say "at the first resurrection" because there is NO TIME INVOLVED in "the first resurrection." That is a silly notion. There are orders (different groups at different times) to the first or PRIMARY resurrection, with Jesus as the firstfruits. The only time element we could establish with the primary resurrection (the one for the righteous) is that it will be accomplished before the second resurrection of death for the sinners.

Have you still not looked this word up in the Greek?
or have you looked it up but you like first as in counting better than the other meanings?

This is simply logic: there are ONLY two resurrections.

Therefore Jesus HAD to be a part of one or the other just as that verse said:

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Did you notice that your Isaiah verse speaks of "until the indignation be past..."? Then speaks of judgment. Doesn't this speak of a pretrib rapture to you? Would you not think this "indignation" would be the trumpet and vial judgments?
 
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iamlamad

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There is no passage that says this.


There is no passage that says this either. (And Jesus proved He defeated death when He rose from the dead!)



Would you address your wife or your mother or your daughter the way you address me? (I am not expecting an answer.)
There is no passage that says they did not, either. Did you ever compare these with the "elders" seen in Revelation?
If they hung around for any length of time, one would guess more that just one verse about them. Since they rose with Jesus' resurrection, that would give more credence to them receiving a resurrection body also.

You don't think Jesus went down to hades?
 
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Psalm3704 posted in post 5449:

The church is taken into heaven before God pour out His wrath (Hebrews 12:22-29).

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Regarding Hebrews 12:22, note that it says "ye are come", not "ye will come", in a future, pre-trib rapture.

For Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer figuratively to our present salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).

Regarding Hebrews 12:26b, note that it can refer to an event which is still in our future, while Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer to an event which has already been fulfilled (in a figurative, spiritual sense).

Psalm3704 posted in post 5449:

It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.

2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory . . .

The tribulation's purpose with regard to the righteous church in all nations having to suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6) could be the same as the purpose of righteous Job having to go through his suffering at the hands of Satan (Job chapters 1-2), and the purpose of, for example, the righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) having to suffer and die at the hands of Satan during a 1st century AD persecution:

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Psalm3704 posted in post 5449:

The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17).

Regarding Revelation 6:17, note that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-17) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Psalm3704 posted in post 5449:

The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.

Note that all obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

Psalm3704 posted in post 5449:

At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.

Note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires that Jesus won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it is still the same 2nd coming as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21, there is no explicit descent to the earth, even though it is the same 2nd coming as Zechariah 14:3-5, which has no explicit white horse.

Psalm3704 posted in post 5449:

No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.

Note that Revelation 19 is Jesus' 2nd coming, which is when other passages show he will rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming, before he goes to war (Revelation 19:11-21), he will rapture (gather together) the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:14-30), and marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-13).
 
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Postvieww said in post 5456:

It is the evil servant caught off guard and unprepared. No pretrib proof here.

Good point.

And in Matthew 24:48-51, the evil servant did evil and was surprised by the Lord's return, because when the Lord didn't return sometime before or during the tribulation, the servant thought that the Lord was indefinitely "delaying" his return (Matthew 24:48). But in fact, the Lord's return won't be delayed at all, but will occur "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, even when believers know this truth, they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).
 
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iamlamad said in post 5463:

Do you think a "trump of God" can be sounded by an angel?

Note that nothing requires that the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 will be blown by God himself instead of by an angel under God's command, just as nothing requires that the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 will be blown by an angel instead of by God himself. That is, the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 can be the same trumpet as in Matthew 24:31. For both 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Matthew 24:31 refer to the trumpet which will sound at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53).

*******

iamlamad said in post 5470:

Did you notice that your Isaiah verse speaks of "until the indignation be past..."? Then speaks of judgment. Doesn't this speak of a pretrib rapture to you?

No, for note that Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they won't be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
 
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n2thelight

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The one scripture that no doubt what so ever proves the pre trib wrong,you all say it's not talking about you,go figure....
Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
Now lets go back up a few verses
Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."
Matthew 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, He is in the desert;' go not forth: 'Behold, He is in the secret chambers;' believe it not."
Point being,if someone has to tell you Christ has come,believe it not!!!
Now let's see what we should be doing during this time.
Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."
So what is the purpose of the above if you'll not gonna be here?Also it says to STAND not hope to escape
Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Now some will say we do that now,but that's not totally true,as the below states...
Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."
We will stand against Satan, and all his forces. The "evil day" is just before the Lord's return, and on that day we had better be prepared to stand and face Satan, with our full armor on.,this is the trib,when satan comes pretending to be Christ....
God said in Revelation 9:4 "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thin, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." That seal of God is the Scriptures; all of it, and it had better be stored in your mind [that's your "forehead"].
 
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BABerean2

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Do you think a "trump of God" can be sounded by an angel?

Recently another poster told me there would be no Grace during the trib...

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

And now we are told an angel cannot blow a trumpet of God.

Can a "trump of God" be sounded by an "angel of God"?


Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rev_8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev_9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We have the coming of wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead, right after the sounding of the seventh trumpet.


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iamlamad

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Recently another poster told me there would be no Grace during the trib...

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

And now we are told an angel cannot blow a trumpet of God.

Can a "trump of God" be sounded by an "angel of God"?


Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rev_8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev_9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

We have the coming of wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead, right after the sounding of the seventh trumpet.
.
"they overcame him "

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


HOW did they overcome Him? Which verse carries more "weight?"

They are ALL true: "they overcame him" by "loved not their lives unto the death." In other words, they were martyred: they lost their head. That is how they "overcame" him. He was hoping they would take his mark and be doomed.

No, when the "trump of God" sounds, it is GOD sounding it: that is why it is called "the trump of God. Any other idea is putting a spin on it. Are ANY of the seven angel trumpets called "the" or "a" "trump of God?" WHY put a spin on it? To make it fit a theory? Why not just leave it as it is, that GOD sounds this trumpet. After all HE Is the one that will call up the dead.

How clever (and how like posttribbers) you put the trump of Matthew 24, 1 thes. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 together as if they were the very same. Why not just add the 7th trumpet of Rev. with it as so many do?

The truth is, they (the Matthew 24 trumpet versus Paul's trumpets) cannot be the same because they sound at DIFFERENT TIMES. In Paul's epistles the trump of God - the very LAST trump of the church age - will sound BEFORE the Day of the Lord, but will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord. It will be the trigger for HIS wrath. Therefore it MUST be sounded before His wrath begins. Therefore it MUST be sounded before ANY mention of His wrath is found in Revelation.

On the other hand, the trumpet in Matthew 24 sounds AFTER the entire tribulation, as in Rev. 19. There is NO gathering in Rev. 19. If the Matthew 24 trumpet was sounded as He descends in Rev 19, ALL THE SAINTS WOULD MISS THE MARRIAGE. This is truth. But, NO PROBLEM for posttribbers: they just rearrange Revelation to fit! (Dusts off hands and declares "problem solved" and "case closed")

Surely you realize that YOU must rearrange Revelation to make your theory fit? Are you authorized to rearrange what John wrote? This is how posttrib proponents make their theory work.

In Matthew 24, we don't know who sounds the trumpet. My guess is, God sounds that trumpet also.

Question: Is God NOT ALLOWED to have more than one trumpet sound but what silly people declare they must all be the same?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Rev 11 is only acknowledging the truth of Rev. 6 God's wrath BEGINS at the first mention: Rev. 6


the time of the dead, that they should be judged There is no judging found at the 7th trumpet. This is a prophecy of future events given by the elders.

and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints
Again a prophecy of future events. There are no rewards passed out at the 7th trumpet except to JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF as the kingdoms of the world are given to him.

Trying to force a gathering at the 7th trumpet in Revelation is an exercise of futility. What really happens at the 7th trumpet? ONLY what it says, the KINGDOMS change hands - Jesus takes to HIMSELF His great power and BEGINS to reign over the Kingdoms of the earth which have just come into His hands.

Look, the ONLY way to find the timing of Paul's rapture is in Paul's epistles. He is the only one that wrote about the rapture.

We have the coming of wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead, right after the sounding of the seventh trumpet.


NO. Wrong. It is only God's wrath continuing. These are all Greek Aorist tense verbs that show NO timing at all. All the trumpets are judgments and all come with His wrath. They are the beginnings of God destroying the earth: all a part of "the Day of the Lord." But all the Old Testament scriptures about the DAY don't fit your theory, so you just ignore them.

Now let me give an example of putting scripture together: ANYONE can put scriptures together and come up with a theory.

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.


Your "put together" scriptures fit together just about like these do.
 
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BABerean2

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the time of the dead, that they should be judged There is no judging found at the 7th trumpet. This is a prophecy of future events given by the elders.

and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints

In other words, you are saying the text does not mean what it plainly says.

This forum reveals the truth to others who are visiting. I do not expect to change your mind.

If this is the type of logic that is necessary to get the pretrib doctrine to work, then anyone can see the truth about the doctrine John Nelson Darby brought to America...
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Luke17:37

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Hi Bible2+. I liked your post. I have a little different theory on the Tribulation timeline which I wanted to share. I think it's possible that the Divine Commander's battle plans at Jericho could be prescriptive of the battle plans at the end. The Bible doesn't say this of course, but it's my theory, and I'm going to stick with it unless I live long enough to see that doesn't match up with reality. :) For seven days they circled Jericho, but on the seventh day, they circled the city seven times before the walls collapsed and Jericho was destroyed. So this is how I see the Tribulation:

Year 1 - Seal 1
Year 2 - Seal 2
Year 3 - Seal 3
Year 4 - Seal 4 (Beast assumes control at about the 3.5 year mark and begins to overcome the saints)
Year 5 - Seal 5 (The first martyrs are given their white robes and told to wait until the full number come in)
Year 6 - Seal 6
Year 7 - Seal 7 = {Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, Trumpet 3/Bowl 3, Trumpet 4/Bowl 4, Trumpet 5/Bowl 5, Trumpet 6/Bowl 6, Trumpet 7/Bowl 7}

Jesus describes the beginning judgments as "the beginning of birth pains," which seem to correspond to the early seals. All these trumpets and bowls in one final year could be like the end of woman's labor--strong, nearly constant pain.

Regarding Revelation 6:17, note that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-17) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before.
Possibly just a year before?

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath.
Perhaps not, but the fifth trumpet affects everyone except those who have the special seal of God (the 144,000 Jewish believers in Jesus). Personally, I think the rest of the Christians will be dead already by this point.

So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).
Satan's 3.5 years may start during the 4th seal.

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9).
I think Revelation 8 and 9 may happen in the last year of the 3.5 years when Antichrist prevails over the saints and has dominion over most everyone.

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).
Personally, I believe the trumpets and vials are parallel not sequential. Again, I can't prove it, but it makes sense to me.

The second bowl:
Revelation 16:3: “Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.”

The second bowl, which affects the sea, seems to correspond with the second trumpet (Revelation 8:8-9: 1/3 sea turned to blood, 1/3 living creatures die…).
(Note: Every living creature in the affected area of sea could die and these are not inconsistent.)

The third bowl (Revelation 16:4-7) affects the rivers and springs of water, just as the third trumpet (Revelation 8:10-11).

Fourth bowl:
Revelation 16:8–9 (NKJV)
8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

If the cause of the fourth trumpet (Revelation 8:12-13, 1/3 sun, 1/3 moon, 1/3 stars struck, so 1/3 day and 1/3 night is dark) is a very large solar flare, it could also be cause for the scorching heat men experience in the fourth bowl.

Fifth bowl (Revelation 16:10–11)
10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. 11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

Fifth trumpet (Revelation 9:2–5)
2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit… 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

Sixth bowl (Revelation 16:12–16)
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Sixth Trumpet (Revelation 9:13–19)
13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

The description of the sixth bowl says the Euphrates was dried up, so that the way might be prepared for the kings of the east, perhaps for the army of two hundred million described in the sixth trumpet. Isaiah 11:15 also says, “The Lord will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt; with His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River [Euphrates], and strike it in the seven streams, and make men cross over dryshod.”

The Seventh Bowl (Revelation 16:17–21)
18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

The Seventh Trumpet (Revelation 11:19)
19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

So, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the trumpets and bowls can occur in parallel.

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).
Yes, it is true that the church is protected, but how? By the seal of Revelation 7:

Revelation 7:2–4 (NKJV)
2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Revelation 12:6 (NKJV)
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Since one thousand two hundred and sixty days is 3.5 years, probably the 144,000 are sealed before the Antichrist begins to have dominion over the saints. It continues:

Revelation 12:14–17 (NKJV)
14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

(This protection for the 144,000 is provided by God, but not necessarily something they created for themselves.)

What about the other believers (Jewish and Gentile), whom the dragon will persecute since he can't destroy these few God is protecting in the wilderness? I don't think they are alive anymore by the time of the fifth trumpet/bowl:

Revelation 9:4 (NKJV)
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

BTW, I do believe Isaiah 26:20 applies to the time the wrath of God reigning down on the wicked. I believe the Christians will "hide" until it's passed, whether that's only the day Jesus returns, or also including the bowls.

But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17)... At Jesus' 2nd coming, before he goes to war (Revelation 19:11-21), he will rapture (gather together) the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:14-30), and marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-13).

So you are saying the gathering comes first and then the wrath against the wicked. It doesn't specify in Revelation, but I think it's the opposite, on the basis of the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Parable of the Wheat and Tares
Matthew 13:24–30 (NKJV)
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

This would be an appropriate time for the remaining Christians to hide:

Isaiah 26:20–21 (NKJV)
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.
 
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Riberra

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No, when the "trump of God" sounds, it is GOD sounding it: that is why it is called "the trump of God. Any other idea is putting a spin on it. Are ANY of the seven angel trumpets called "the" or "a" "trump of God?" WHY put a spin on it? To make it fit a theory? Why not just leave it as it is, that GOD sounds this trumpet. After all HE Is the one that will call up the dead.

How clever (and how like posttribbers) you put the trump of Matthew 24, 1 thes. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 together as if they were the very same. Why not just add the 7th trumpet of Rev. with it as so many do?

The truth is, they (the Matthew 24 trumpet versus Paul's trumpets) cannot be the same because they sound at DIFFERENT TIMES.

In Paul's epistles the trump of God - the very LAST trump of the church age - will sound BEFORE the Day of the Lord, but will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord. It will be the trigger for HIS wrath. Therefore it MUST be sounded before His wrath begins. Therefore it MUST be sounded before ANY mention of His wrath is found in Revelation.
You are actually putting a spin on it by saying that the Trump of God will sound the END "of the Church age"wording invented by the pre-tribbers---Rather than being the Trump that will sound the Coming of Jesus in Glory and the rising of the those who died in Christ and our gathering to meet Jesus in the air.The Coming of Jesus in Glory will put an END to that actual age who goes on since more tha 6,000 years and will be replaced by Jesus kingdom on The Earth.

On the other hand, the trumpet in Matthew 24 sounds AFTER the entire tribulation, as in Rev. 19. There is NO gathering in Rev. 19. If the Matthew 24 trumpet was sounded as He descends in Rev 19, ALL THE SAINTS WOULD MISS THE MARRIAGE. This is truth. But, NO PROBLEM for posttribbers: they just rearrange Revelation to fit! (Dusts off hands and declares "problem solved" and "case closed")
The Trumpet of Matthew 24 will not be sounded by an angel ,it is different than the 7 trumpets of Revelation and fit perfectly with what Paul describe.
Paul say that Jesus will bring the souls of those who died in Christ (Saints) with Him when He will descend from Heaven .This is the wife being prepared and arrayed in white linen for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. described in Revelation 19:8

Surely you realize that YOU must rearrange Revelation to make your theory fit? Are you authorized to rearrange what John wrote? This is how posttrib proponents make their theory work.
Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Do you think that Jesus will marry the souls of those who sleep in Christ (Church) in Heaven or rather that Jesus will bring these souls with Him to be resurrected and reunited with those in Christ still alive and remain ELECT/SAINTS on earth.
The Marriage occuring when both the resurrected church and the belivers still alive meet Jesus in the clouds in the air unto His Coming after the Tribulation.
 
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