Psalm 3704 from post #5404
Postvieww said: ↑
Rev 12:14 and Rev 13:5 must overlap each other,
Why would they not overlap? Oh that's right, you misread what I wrote.....again!
Again, you miss the point. If the 42 months of the 2 witnesses begins and ends in Chapter 11 and events from Chapter 12 and 13 overlap Chapter 11 and each other. It is very reasonable to believe seals , trumpets and vial can over lap in the same way.
Postvieww said: ↑
Your statement is based on the belief Revelation is in chronological order.
My commentary is based on the following chronology " 1st seal,2nd seal, 3rd seal, 4th seal, 5th seal, 6th seal, 7th seal, 1st trumpet, 2nd trumpet, 3rd trumpet, 4th trumpet, 5th trumpet, 6th trumpet, 7th trumpet, 1st vial, 2nd vial, 3rd vial, 4th vial, 5th vial, 6th vial, 7th vial.
If your view is different from mines, I can guarantee you're in error!
My view is definitely different from yours and I have repeatedly given examples comparing scripture to scripture why I believe a non chronological reading of Revelation is correct. Simply declaring you are right and I am wrong proves nothing but the fact you are convinced you are right. What do you back that guarantee with?
Postvieww said: ↑
Paul refers to our gathering in 2 Thes 2:1.
The gathering is not the rapture. If you have any idea what it is you would be able to refute the fact that in Matthew 24:29-31, the angels gather from heaven.
I have no idea what you are thinking. From what you wrote it appears you are saying 1 Thess 2:1 is the same as Matt 24:31.
You can't rapture people already in heaven. In a rapture people go up, they don't come down.....you silly clown!
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him
You said 1 Thess was the rapture. In the above verse we have Jesus bringing people DOWN with Him.
I have already refuted this once in detail, I’ll repost it below.
Postvieww said: ↑
2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,. Is our gathering not at the rapture?
An empathic NO! Not even close.
Really, I would tend to believe most pretibbers would disagree with you on that point.
Wanna see the scriptures in the bible that proves it?
You should have provided them in this post.
Repost by Postview and updated:
Psalm 3704
“How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.”
This not an argument based on scripture, it is a human reasoning argument based on the false premise of the church being raptured to heaven prior to the tribulation. There is no rapture in scripture where the church goes up to where God dwells. There is scripture for those dead in Christ (their spirits) coming down with him.
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Nothing in this verse says anyone goes back to heaven (where God dwells), that is a false premise with no scripture. Trump of God same trump as Matt.24:31 and 1 Corin 15:52
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Both references to heaven in vs 29 refer to a cosmic event as set by the context of the verse. Sun darkened, moon not giving light. Stars fall from heaven also a cosmic event established by the context. “The powers of the heavens” refers to at least 2 of the 3 heavens, in the context of the verse still a cosmic event.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Heaven in this verse is clearly the sky above our heads because “all the tribes of the earth” witness the event and they mourn. Since the tribes of the earth see the “sign of the Son of man” in the sky above our heads and they see “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven” the second reference in this passage of the word heaven is also the sky above our heads.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
If “he” sends his angels to gather does he send them from earth back to heaven (where God dwells) or does “he” send them from heaven (where God dwells) to the earth to gather? Scripture backs up the latter.
Mark 13:27 adds “from the uttermost part of the earth”
Jer. 49: 36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.
The events of this passage are on this earth. Elam is current day Iran. Elam is not in heaven where God dwells, yet the passage says Elam will be brought from ” the four winds from the four quarters of heaven” the language is obviously figurative. I submit it is the same figurative language in Matt 24:31
Dan.7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
The events in this passage are a vision about things to happen on this earth. More figurative language transpiring on this earth.
Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
The events of this passage are on the earth. More figurative language.
Zech 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.
The events of this passage are on the earth. More figurative language.
In context none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells. There is no scriptural reason to believe Matt 24:31 is any different!
I believe I have refuted your statement: “How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.”
I have used scripture here to back my point, if you choose to respond, I would appreciate a response in kind. I already know you think I am wrong and you are right.
I’m really not a “silly clown”. 
Instead of indulging in self proclaimed speculations, let's compare side by side scriptural evidences from a more creditable source and see what the bible has to say on the timing of the rapture.
*50 Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen Before the Tribulation
1) Jesus Christ told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Noah - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of those days by explicitly stating that Noah
"entered into the ark"before the flood came (
Matthew 24:37-39).
"so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." -
Matthew 24:39
2) To emphasize this point, Jesus Christ repeated this detailed account in
Luke 17:26, recording the detail that Noah
"entered into the ark" before the flood,
and then "the flood came" (
Luke 17:26-27).
"Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." -
Luke 17:30
3) Jesus Christ also told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Lot - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of that event by explicitly stating that Lot
"went out of Sodom"before God's judgment rained down (
Luke 17:28-29).
"Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." -
Luke 17:30
4) God reminds us of these individuals again, and tells us that it is God's nature to deliver believers
before divine judgment: Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (
II Pet. 2:5-9). Note that Peter (who penned the book of Peter) was present when Christ told it to His disciples the first time.
5) Right after that, He tells them about Noah and Lot, He
further emphasizes this and describes
2-3 examples (
Matthew 24:40-41,
Luke 17:34-36) of how some people will be taken, and some will be left.
6)
Right after that, He warns them
"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." If Christ returns at any other time than before the Tribulation, then you would know (to the day) when to expect Him. The fact that He is coming
before is what catches people off guard.
7)
Right after that, He tells them of the metaphor of the
unannounced thief (
Matthew 24:43-44), and told His disciples His coming would be in the same manner.
8)
Right after that, He uses the illustration of the unfaithful servant who was caught off-guard by his master's
unannounced return (
Matthew 24:45-51).
9)
Right after that, He tells them the parable of the ten virgins, and how some were caught unprepared for the bridegroom's
unannounced return (
Matthew 25:1-12).
10)
Right after that, He warns them
a second time,
"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." -
Matthew 25:13
11) Right after that, He tells them of the parable of the talents, and a servant who was caught unprepared for his master's return (
Matthew 25:14-30).
12) Here, in one sitting, Jesus Christ plainly explains the pattern of His return to a group of fishermen, and to make absolutely sure that they understand what He is saying, He lays out 2 biographical patterns, 2 pattern parables, and 2 explicit warnings about these pattern (with additional implied warnings woven throughout); the fact that He repeated something they needed to know
six times in one sitting should tell us that He wants us to be absolutely clear about it! Any teaching that ignores, contradicts, or reverses this clearly spelled-out pattern will end up ignoring and contradicting other Scripture as well, leading to confusion and deception. Do not hold to any prophetic pattern that goes against Christ's given pattern. The very first words out of Christ's mouth when He sat down to tell His disciples these things was this warning:
"Take heed that no man deceive you." (
Matthew 24:4).
13) The church is
not appointed to wrath (
Romans 5:9,
I Thess.1:9-10;
I Thess. 5:9). The church cannot enter
"the great day of his wrath" (
Rev. 6:17). Thirteen times in Revelation, the time of the Tribulation is described as a time of wrath (
Rev. 6:16,
Rev. 6:17,
Rev. 11:18,
Rev. 12:12,
Rev. 14:8,
Rev. 14:10,
Rev. 14:19,
Rev. 15:1,
Rev. 15:7,
Rev. 16:1,
Rev. 16:19,
Rev. 18:3,
Rev. 19:15).
14) No NT tribulation passage mentions the church (
Matthew 13:30,
39-42,
48-50;
24:15-31;
I Thess. 1:9-10;
5:4-9;
II Thess. 2:1-11, Rev. 4-18). Nor is the translation (rapture) of the church ever mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming after the tribulation.
15) Historical concept of imminency surrounding Christ's return. From a historical concept, the doctrine is not new, just more clearly classified and understood.
16) Pre-Trib allows literal interpretation of OT & NT. Post-trib must use some symbols or analogies.
17) Pre-Trib has a clear distinguishing between Israel and the church. Post-Trib has "replacement theology"
18) Pre-Trib gives distinction between Great Tribulation and tribulation in general.
Acts 14:22 - the word
tribulation is
afflictions, not the time of God's wrath. Two different greek words.
19) Great Tribulation is for Israel's restoration, not to prepare the church for Glory (
Deut. 4:29-30,
Jeremiah 30:4-11 -
"...even in the latter days...""correct thee")
20) Pre-trib is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.
21) The Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11. Pre-trib teaches that it starts in ch. 6.
22) Mid-trib teaches that the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11, the last of trumpet
I Cor. 15:52, and the trumpet of
Matt. 24:31 are the same event; but, they are three distinct events. They are not connected.
23) Pre-trib maintains the unity of the 70 weeks. Post & mid destroy the unity of the 70 weeks and confuse Israel's program with that of the church.
24) The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (
I Thess. 5:1-9).
25) The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in
Luke 21:36.
26) The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from
"the hour of temptation."Rev. 3:10
27) After translation, believers go to the Father's House in heaven (
John 14:3).
28) Pre-trib does not divide the Body of Christ at the Rapture on a work principle (partial rapture). It is the final climatic aspect of salvation by grace.
29) All, not part, of the church will be raptured. (
I Cor. 15:51-52,
I Thess. 4:17).
30) The remnant of the Tribulation are Israelites, not members of the church.
31) Pre-trib does not confuse terms like 'elect' and 'saints' (saved of all ages). "Church" & "those in Christ" are those saved before Rapture. The "elect" and "saints" after the Rapture are not part of the Bride of Christ, the church.
32) The church is to look for signs of His coming. Believers in Tribulation are to look for signs.
33) Holy Spirit, as a restrainer, is removed before the lawless one dominates the Tribulation.
II Thess. 2:6-8. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint (Holy Spirit) is lifted. Believers (Spirit-in dwelt) are translated.
34)
II Cor. 5:10 records all believers before the judgment seat of Christ in Heaven - an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the Second Coming of Christ to earth.
35) The 24 elders (
Rev. 4:4-11) as reps of the church would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation. They cannot be in three spots at the same time if post-trib.
36) The wedding feast takes place before the Second Coming.
Rev. 19:7-10.
37) Tribulations saints are not raptured at the second coming, but remain and have children (
Isa. 65:20-25) and enter into the Millennium Kingdom.
38) The judgment of the Gentiles following the second coming (
Matt. 25:31-46) is on natural bodies - which would have been impossible if they were translated at the Second Coming.
39) If the Rapture took place at the Second Coming, there would be no need to separate the sheep from the goats. (
Matt. 25:31)
40) The coming of Christ is imminent. If it waited on the Tribulation, it would not be imminent.
41) The exhortation to be comforted (
I Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pre-tribulational view (contradicted by most post-tribulation). There is no comfort in having to suffer through the Tribulation and its horrors.
42) Believers are to look for signs of His coming, not signs of the Tribulation.
Titus 2:13.
43) The exhortation to purify yourself in light of His coming has most significance if His coming is imminent.
I John 3:2-3.
44) At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven (
John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.
45) The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (
1 Thess. 5:1-9), which includes the Tribulation.
46) The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (
Deu. 4:29-30;
Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.
47) None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (
Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11;
Dan. 8:24-27;
12:1-2).
48) None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (
Matt. 13:30; 39-42,
48-50;
24:15-31;
1 Thess. 1:9-10;
5:4-9;
2 Thess. 2:1-11;
Rev. 4-18).
49) In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in
Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of
Revelation 11.
50) The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of
1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of
Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.
*50 Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen After the Tribulation
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