Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Riberra]

You only think this because you don't see Paul's last trump there. John did not see the rapture of the church, so did not hear that trumpet.

John have not seen the Rapture of the Church to Heaven at the opening of the 6Th seal because Paul never wrote about a rapture/caught up to Heaven . John is comfirming my point.

By the way, there is no gathering of the body of Christ written in Rev. 19

The Wife being prepared (hath made herself ready) mentioned in Revelation 19 is the gathering of the Souls of the Dead believers in Heaven that Jesus will bring with Him when He will descend from Heaven that Paul mentioned in his letters.No raptured people are in Heaven only the souls of dead believers (SAINTS) being made ready ....

Revelation 19
7.... for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

[keras]

This is just rude. One could easily accuse you of having "made up your mind as to what you think God should do." But these kinds of statements do nothing to further the truth and nothing further the body of Christ's unity in truth.

Guilty as charged.
I have made up my mind to believe what the Bible prophets say will happen. Whereas many other people I meet here and elsewhere, believe theories and teachings that are not supported by scripture. This is exactly as Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 and in 2 Peter 2:1-3
So my aim is to advise everyone to clear your minds of any notions or doctrines and stick firmly to what is actually written in our Bibles. Because translations vary, it is necessary to check obscure passages in several trans, or better still look at the Interlineal Scripture Analyser for a direct trans.
As we are now so close to when most of the prophesies will unfold, it is wise to have a proper understanding of what God has planned for our future.

 

[iamlamad]

I don't think we are ignoring chapter 6; rather, we are considering both chapters 6 and 11.

What do you make of the statement "wrath is come" (present and not past tense) and the statement about the time that the dead should be judged? How many times does God judge the dead, in your opinion? Three times? Four times? What are your thoughts?

First we must understand that most of John's verbs are of the Greek Aorist type. These are very strange indeed in that they show no timing information whatsoever. They are usually translated as past tense into English, but there really is NO English equivalent: when we try to write swim. for example, no matter what word we choose, we know TIMING as well as the swimming because the timing information is included in the word. It is not so with Aorist tense verbs. The closest we could come would be action with no idea when that action took place. For timing information we must get it from the context.

In chapter 6 those crying to the rocks saw prophecy concerning the DAY fulfilled in their eyesight, so thought that the day of the Lord had arrived with the earthquake or that it would very soon arrive. That is as close as we can come to "The day of His wrath has come.

Strong's tells us:
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense...

So when we see "wrath is come" we understand from the context only that wrath is present. (if it was not present, then it would not have been mentioned.)

Since wrath is mentioned at the end of the 6th seal, I have to believe it began rigth there where it was mentioned. If it started at the 6th seal and continued on through the week, it would certainly be present at the midpoint.

I understand some find no problems: they just rearrange so that the 6th seal is at the same time as the 7th trumpet! This is really not an option!

I understand these words from the 24 elders to be prophecy, prophesying of future events. The sheep and goat judgment will be one judgment. The wheat and tares parable will be another judgment, but these will be for different people. The very many deaths at the battle of armageddon will be yet another judgment. Of course the white throne judgment will be another.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Boxer, Peaceful Sabbath

Jesus was NOT speaking about every stone.

He was talking about every stone, every building, everywhere,: "ALL these things".

Matthew's account CANNOT be misconstrued to contradict Luke as you have done. "All these things" in Matthew's account are identified by Luke as the valuable marble stones which were embedded with gold and which ADORNED the temple buildings.

I agree that these two accounts CANNOT be misconstrued because they're not the same.

Luke 21 was in the morning inside the inner court of the Temple in the first section called "the women's court".

Matthew 24 was in the evening of that same day about a Sabbath's days journey away on the mount called Olivet.

"There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down” is talking about the end stage of the second coming. (The one that hasn't happened yet.)

 

[Dave Watchman]

The best way that I can put it is,ad70 is a dual prophecy

I wonder what you mean.

Daniel 9 is dual?

Luke 21 is dual?

Matthew 24 is dual?

The best way that I can put it is: "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" is not the same thing as: "when you see the abomination of desolation", because we are still here.

 

[Postvieww]

You only think this because you don't see Paul's last trump there. John did not see the rapture of the church, so did not hear that trumpet. By the way, there is no gathering of the body of Christ written in Rev. 19

John did not see it so did not write it, but scriptures show THAT is where Paul's rapture fits. By the way, THERE IS NO RAPTURE shown in Rev. 19. You have to imagine it there. And another by the way, you will MISS the marriage and supper in heaven before Jesus comes.

Yes, indeed He did, but the coming Paul wrote of does not fit the coming in other scriptures: there are too many differences for them to be the same coming. Besides, God is not the kind of God that would beat up and murder His own bride, much less force them to suffer under His wrath. Time after time He has told us we will be removed or escape from His wrath on earth. HOw? Because we get raptured to heaven. You need to take off your preconceptions and camp out on 1 Thes. 5 until you understand Paul's timing. You do understand, if Jesus comes once more FOR His bride, then again WITH His bride, then the rapture will certainly be at His COMING; just NOT the coming you insist on.


Exactly: His NEXT coming, His SECOND coming, but NOT His coming as seen in Rev. 19.


Yes, on his way to the AIR above the earth....this is what Paul tells us. And He will bring the spirits of those who have died in Christ with Him. But when He comes in Rev. 19, He ALSO COMES with those ALIVE IN CHRIST who were caught up with the dead in Christ pretrib: ALL His saints are returning with Him...including the Old Testament saints. Including all the angels. The ARMIES of heaven. This coming He is coming for BATTLE, not a wedding. The marriage is over. Posttribbers will MISS IT.

Yet, if you would believe John, God's wrath will begin at the 6th seal. Don't take my word for it, go read it. Then read John 1-3 and discover that the trumpets are a part of the Day of the Lord, and so a part of His wrath. Read Isaiah 2 and discover even the great earthquake at the 6th seal IS INDEED a part of the Day of the Lord and so a part of His wrath. Those people saw the signs, and lived through a great earthquake and KNEW by God's word that this was the beginning of God's wrath and DAY on the earth.



I believe John: I will be kept from that hour of trial. God has set no appointment for me, and I surely won't set one myself as posttribbers are doing. Did you not every read WHO God's wrath and DAy of the Lord are really for?

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Romans 2:8
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Do you find the Body of Christ in any of these verses? I surely don't. God has no desire that His Kids suffer wrath. Again you need to do a study on His wrath and discover that the entire 70th week is His wrath. God will pull His Kids OUT and take them to safety because it will NOT be as it was in the land of Goshen, This time judgment will come to all the surface of the earth. Just as Paul wrote that NONE will escape the sudden destruction, so none will escape His wrath. God will provide water for those who fled into the wilderness. But NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE can you find that God will protect of provide for those who foolishly missed the pretrib rapture. He has TOLD YOU that you will be overcome. What part of overcome do you not get? You are NOT GOING TO live through those days. You will be caught and tortured, and eventually will either take the mark or lose your head. NO ONE can live 3 1/2 years, or 3 years or 2 years without food or water. All those on the earth will be VERY hungry and VERY thirsty. Why do you think Jesus mentioned a drink of water? It will become a most precious thing because JUDGMENT will be around the planet.

Lamad said: You only think this because you don't see Paul's last trump there. John did not see the rapture of the church, so did not hear that trumpet. By the way, there is no gathering of the body of Christ written in Rev. 19 How can you claim John wrote the words of Jesus in John 14 about a trip to heaven and then claim John did not see the rapture of the church? No gathering, return of Jesus or trip to heaven mentioned in 1 Corin 15:51-52. So why does it matter in Rev 19? There is only one last trump in scripture.

 

[iamlamad]

John have not seen the Rapture of the Church to Heaven at the opening of the 6Th seal because Paul never wrote about a rapture/caught up to Heaven . John is comfirming my point.


The Wife being prepared (hath made herself ready) mentioned in Revelation 19 is the gathering of the Souls of the Dead believers in Heaven that Jesus will bring with Him when He will descend from Heaven that Paul mentioned in his letters.No raptured people are in Heaven only the souls of dead believers (SAINTS) being made ready ....

Revelation 19
7.... for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

JOhn did not see the rapture because He was busy watching the first seals being broken IN HEAVEN. His focus was heaven. Paul CERTAINLY wrote of the rapture . You just don't believe what he wrote.

You sure don't read very close. There is no gathering in REv. 19. If you just read it without preconceptions, the saints are already there in heaven when we begin chapter 19. They attend the marriage and supper in heaven. They were ALREADY gathered long before chapter 19. John SAW THEM in heaven in chapter 7.

Sorry, it seems you did not look up what kind of verb John used in the wife "hath made herself ready." It is a Greek Aorist verb that does not show ANY TIMING WHATSOEVER. We don't get timing from John's verbs, we get timing from the very verse of mention. It is that way through John's entire book. Where is John in his narrative in chapter 19? It is after the days of GT, after the 70th week is finished, and after the Beast has been captured and thrown into the lake of fire. Then John turns to scenes in heaven. The saints are already there. The wife has already made herself ready. She can do very little preparations after she arrived in heaven, as shown in chapter 7. Her righteous acts are done and overwith once she is in heaven. Sorry, I don't buy your story and neither did John, You make up stuff from preconceptions that are simply not found in the text.

By the way, you MISS the marriage and supper. It will be in heaven before Jesus returns to earth. That is the way it is written. Or do you just rearrange to fit your theory as others on this thread do?

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad said: You only think this because you don't see Paul's last trump there. John did not see the rapture of the church, so did not hear that trumpet. By the way, there is no gathering of the body of Christ written in Rev. 19 How can you claim John wrote the words of Jesus in John 14 about a trip to heaven and then claim John did not see the rapture of the church? No gathering, return of Jesus or trip to heaven mentioned in 1 Corin 15:51-52. So why does it matter in Rev 19? There is only one last trump in scripture.

Two separate books written at two separate times. In Revelation John was told to write what he saw, and he did exactly that. He did not SEE anything when he wrote John 14.

I beg to differ: for every year at the feast of trumpets where was a "last trump" for that feast. Paul's "last trump" will be the last trumpet of the church age. There will certainly be other trumpets during the millennial reign: God will not destroy all trumpets so there can never be another. Indeed, the 7th trumpet, although not written as such, will be the last trumpet of THAT series.

 

[iamlamad]

That sequence is correct.
The wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb falls upon the earth at the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:16-17
Then, at the mid-point of the last seven years before the Return of Jesus, Satan's wrath comes those Christians who refuse his mark. Revelation 12:17
Finally, after the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls of the Great Tribulation, the wrath of God is completed. Revelation 15:1

At the glorious Return, wrath is not mentioned, Jesus simple destroys His enemies by the Sword of His Word. Revelation 19:21

Readers, this post is pretty much myth. I recommend you RUN. For someone so intent on telling us what Old Testament prophesies mean, he missed this.

Isaiah 63
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

God the Father's anger begins at the 6th seal, and continues on through the entire 70th week. Jesus the Messiah will continue that anger at His coming in Rev. 19.

Satan's wrath comes when He is cast down from the heavenlies at the 7th trumpet and MIDPOINT of the week. But no one can separate the time of His anger from God's anger, for God will use the vials filled with His anger to shorten those days of GT that are partly Satan's anger. Again he has MIXED UP John's God given chronology, for the vials are in chapter 16 which in our numbering system comes AFTER chapter 15. I do wonder why people find the need to rearrange revelation to fit their theories.

 

[iamlamad]

I am communicating what the Bible prophets tell us quite well. It is people like yourself, who have made up their minds as to what they think God should do, who can't see it.
Paul is clearly referring to the Return of Jesus for His Mill. reign in 2 Thess 2. That glorious Day should not be confused with the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, that will come years before the Return. The Sixth Seal event is that sudden and shocking Day, prophesied in great detail throughout the Bible. 2 Peter 3:7 says God has reserved the earth for a judgement by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 tells us about this test and Luke 21:34-36 warns us to be aware of its coming.
There will be another CME sunstrike at the 4th Bowl, but the one the Lord will send as Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 6:12-17 and over 100 other prophesies describe, will be the world-changing event that commence's the last few years of this age.

I do agree with you that the G/M attack is before the Return of Jesus and the final attack at the end of the Millennium is a type of that event.

One thing you have proven to us: you THINK you know. You THINK others don't. You are perhaps the only believer on earth who believes as you do. When what you have written fails to come to pass, what then?

 

[iamlamad]

In Revelation 20, it just says that Satan is released at the end of the thousand years and describes the four quarters of the earth - as Gog and Magog - the nations that Satan deceives. Gog and Magog are not entities themselves. It is just describing the nations of the quarters of the earth, will surround Israel and Jerusalem on all four sides, north, south, east, and west with intent to battle.

So from that we can deduce that the Ezekiel 38/39 pre-70th week invasion is made up of countries north, south, east, and west of Israel.

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Ezekiel 38/39 is pre-70th week, because afterwards is 7 years of burning the war implements, and burying the dead for 7 months. Not a fit for the end of the millenium event in Revelation 20:7-9.

Really Bible2, why do you waste your time, continuing with a scenario that is an obvious not fit?

He likes to copy and paste.

 

[iamlamad]

Based on your interpretation the wrath of the Lamb comes before the wrath of Satan and then the wrath of God comes later...


Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

(Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.)

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It is no wonder your interpretation produces tremendous conflict in scripture...
.

With such a post, one wonders where to begin. Look, I know you don't believe Rev. 6:17, but it is true anyway. The DAY of God's wrath begins with the great earthquake at the 6th seal. He is still angry and still has wrath in chapter 11, and by the time the vials are poured out, God is VERY angry and fills the vials with His anger. This is what is written of you just read it without trying to rearrange it.

The last I knew, the LAMB is part of the trinity so when the LAMB is angry so the Father is angry and so the Holy Spirit is angry.

You can stick a verse from chapter 19 in between two verses from chapter 6 if you choose. That only shows you know very little of the intent of the Author in REvelation. Just because you rearrange does not make it so. NOTHING in chapter 19 fits with anything in chapter 6. The events of these two chapters are over 7 years separated from each other. Now, it just may be possible that some people who survived the great earthquake at the 6th seal will still be alive in chapter 19 and will be in the armies attacking Israel. Is that what you were trying to say?

By the way, I did not write "from the wrath of the Lamb." John wrote it for that specific time and place. If you read it closely you will see that in that one verse both the Father on the throne and the SON or LAMB are BOTH angry.

Then you paste something from chapter 12, which will come over 3 1/2 years later, as if Satan's anger is the same as God's anger? Is that what you are trying to show us?

In Rev. 11:18, if you study the Greek behind the English, all John is saying is that God is still angry from when He started getting angry at the 6th seal. This is no surprise for God is STILL ANGRY 3 or so years later when He pours out the vials. And at the same time SATAN is still angry. So God's anger and Satan's anger are felt AT THE SAME TIME, and cannot be separated.

One could wonder of you are dizzy after you do so much rearranging.

I have a novel idea: why not just believe Revelation AS WRITTEN?

 

[iamlamad]

The Scriptures say that the names in the book of life have been written from the foundation of the world. There are instances where it is hinted that one can be blotted out or removed from it; are there any instances where one can be added to it?

It certainly seems names can be blotted out. I believe EVERY name is blotted out when that person reaches the age of accountability and sins. But then if they are born again, their names will be added back in. But this is just conjecture. God has not told us much about this book.

 

[keras]

keras said: ↑
That sequence is correct.
The wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb falls upon the earth at the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:16-17
Then, at the mid-point of the last seven years before the Return of Jesus, Satan's wrath comes those Christians who refuse his mark. Revelation 12:17
Finally, after the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls of the Great Tribulation, the wrath of God is completed. Revelation 15:1
At the glorious Return, wrath is not mentioned, Jesus simple destroys His enemies by the Sword of His Word. Revelation 19:21

Readers, this post is pretty much myth. I recommend you RUN. For someone so intent on telling us what Old Testament prophesies mean, he missed this.

The sequence I said was correct was in reply to the one Lamad posted.
I agreed with Lamad and now you says its just myth? Do you disagree with the verses I posted? What I have written, is basically what those verses actually say.

One thing you have proven to us: you THINK you know. You THINK others don't. You are perhaps the only believer on earth who believes as you do. When what you have written fails to come to pass, what then?

Lamad, you and the millions of people who believe in a rapture to heaven, confidently think you must have it right. But there was a joke about '50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong', now used to allude to the general acceptance of something believed to be right by a majority, but is actually completely wrong.
We are told there will be false teachers, who will deceive many, even of the elect. So are you rapture removal to heaven believers correct? No, because there is no scripture that says God will take His people to heaven. Jesus refutes that notion and all the prophesies about what will happen are earth based.
Plenty of people believe as I do, all those who read the prophesies as written, not with an agenda as you have.

 

[Riberra]

JOhn did not see the rapture because He was busy watching the first seals being broken IN HEAVEN. His focus was heaven.

Nice attempt to dodge
John's focus was writing everything that he saw in the vision.No rapture of the Church going to Heaven when the 6 th seal was broken was in the vision.

Paul CERTAINLY wrote of the rapture . You just don't believe what he wrote.

Caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Do you know that -in the air- is where the planes and birds fly... We breath air... The atmosphere of the Earth is made of air. That sound that the caught up and the meeting with Jesus is in the Earth's environment....Nowhere Paul mention a caught up of the living to Heaven.

You sure don't read very close. There is no gathering in REv. 19. If you just read it without preconceptions, the saints are already there in heaven when we begin chapter 19.

Right ,they are the SOULS of dead believers....

They attend the marriage and supper in heaven. They were ALREADY gathered long before chapter 19. John SAW THEM in heaven in chapter 7.

The gathering of the SOULS of dead believers was not finished in Revelation 7 it continue in Revelation 15...until that God put an End to the Beast reign when the Great harlot Babylon the Kingdom of the AC is destroyed mentioned in Revelation 18 .

Lets continue from there: the destruction of the AC Kingdom and what happen next...Hint the gathering of the Souls of dead believers which are in Heaven is now completed....

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

[Psalm3704]

He was talking about every stone, every building, everywhere,: "ALL these things".

Praise the Lord someone else understands this too!

Mark 13:1-2, Matthew 24:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6 are not parallel verses. Three different prophetic scriptures at three different locations, at three different time with three different audiences.

Nice going Dave.






.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Praise the Lord someone else understands this too!

Mark 13:1-2, Matthew 24:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6 are not parallel verses. Three different prophetic scriptures at three different locations, at three different time with three different audiences.

Nice going Dave.

I have never heard of such a notion.

 

[keras]

Mark 13:1-2, Matthew 24:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6 are not parallel verses. Three different prophetic scriptures at three different locations, at three different time with three different audiences.

Those three parallel scriptures all go on to say: Take care that no-one misleads you......
Seems you and Dave haven't taken enough care!

 

[ivebeenshown]

First we must understand that most of John's verbs are of the Greek Aorist type. These are very strange indeed in that they show no timing information whatsoever. They are usually translated as past tense into English, but there really is NO English equivalent: when we try to write swim. for example, no matter what word we choose, we know TIMING as well as the swimming because the timing information is included in the word. It is not so with Aorist tense verbs. The closest we could come would be action with no idea when that action took place. For timing information we must get it from the context.

I am familiar with the concept of the Aorist tense.

In chapter 6 those crying to the rocks saw prophecy concerning the DAY fulfilled in their eyesight, so thought that the day of the Lord had arrived with the earthquake or that it would very soon arrive. That is as close as we can come to "The day of His wrath has come.

Strong's tells us:
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense...

So when we see "wrath is come" we understand from the context only that wrath is present. (if it was not present, then it would not have been mentioned.)

Since wrath is mentioned at the end of the 6th seal, I have to believe it began rigth there where it was mentioned.

Joel clearly stated that those signs would be present before the day of the Lord; what then do you use to support the interpretation that the day of the Lord is present at the sixth seal rather than near, given the Aorist tense? Not that I disagree with you here; I just want to understand your thoughts.

If it started at the 6th seal and continued on through the week, it would certainly be present at the midpoint.

I understand some find no problems: they just rearrange so that the 6th seal is at the same time as the 7th trumpet! This is really not an option!

Why is it not an option to view Revelation as a set of possibly parallel or overlapping visions? Just because John saw some visions in a certain order does mean the events therein must happen in that order, or that they must not have any overlap.

I understand these words from the 24 elders to be prophecy, prophesying of future events. The sheep and goat judgment will be one judgment. The wheat and tares parable will be another judgment, but these will be for different people. The very many deaths at the battle of armageddon will be yet another judgment. Of course the white throne judgment will be another.

Just how many 'mass' judgment events do you believe there to be? Jesus said the 'sheep and goat judgment' will occur when he comes in power and glory. He said the 'wheat and tares' bit, the 'harvest', is the end of the world. So when Jesus comes in power and glory, is that not the end of the world? Because Paul said that when Jesus is revealed from heaven in power and glory and comes with his angels, he will deliver the punishment of everlasting destruction. And when Jesus answered the question at the mount of Olives, the question was 'what is the sign of your coming and the end of the world?'

 

[iamlamad]

I am familiar with the concept of the Aorist tense.

Joel clearly stated that those signs would be present before the day of the Lord; what then do you use to support the interpretation that the day of the Lord is present at the sixth seal rather than near, given the Aorist tense? Not that I disagree with you here; I just want to understand your thoughts.

Why is it not an option to view Revelation as a set of possibly parallel or overlapping visions? Just because John saw some visions in a certain order does mean the events therein must happen in that order, or that they must not have any overlap.

Just how many 'mass' judgment events do you believe there to be? Jesus said the 'sheep and goat judgment' will occur when he comes in power and glory. He said the 'wheat and tares' bit, the 'harvest', is the end of the world. So when Jesus comes in power and glory, is that not the end of the world? Because Paul said that when Jesus is revealed from heaven in power and glory and comes with his angels, he will deliver the punishment of everlasting destruction. And when Jesus answered the question at the mount of Olives, the question was 'what is the sign of your coming and the end of the world?'

I have never counted up to see how many. I named three. Although the Greek is translated here "end of the world" I think end of the age would be a better translation, for the world continues under new leadership: the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have never really solved exactly when the Day starts: it will be either at the very moment John wrote "the day of His wrath has come" or it will be at the 7th seal that officially opens the 70th week, or perhaps with the first trumpet judgment. To be very exact, Joel wrote "before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." What we don't know is how long before? Certainly time progresses in chapter 6 and at the end of the chapter when people say that the DAY has come, it is after the signs in the sun and moon. It is after the sky rolls up and after the stars fall. All this means time is passing. Therefore when they say the day is come, who am I to doubt them? God and John saw fit to included what they said. However, if someone wants to argue that the Day starts with the 7th seal or the first trumpet, I would not argue.

Why is it not an option to view Revelation as a set of possibly parallel or overlapping visions

Simply because it is not. Isn't that a good enough reason? Show me what you would call an "'overlap" and I will show it is not.