God's foreknowledge and free will

[Hank77]

The question arises when does God know what the outcome will be? God always knew? God knew just before you decided? What questions does this raise about God being in control?

He always knew the beginning to the end.

For me it again raises the question, what is the point of prayer?

Not in the sense of communication, but when you are specifically praying for something to happen.

You pray, God answers. God knew you would pray and He knew how He would answer.

I planned to euthanize my cat. I implemented that plan. I still cried.

God didn't say He was sorry He was destroying man, He said He was sorry He ever created man to begin with.
So that would be like you saying to were sorry that you ever got your cat to begin with.

On the other hand, perhaps you do not believe that god is omniscient or perhaps you believe that godly omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive.

I do not believe they are mutually exclusive. They can both be true at the same time.

don't believe God would be concerned about mowing lawn or watching football unless it had something to do with his business. God is not a magician that he can predict the future even though he would be aware of all the options and possibilities. God knows the future in as far as He engineers the future; if God knew you would mow the lawn in fifty years then it would happen. Man has free will and every day a man makes many choices from an infinite set of options; the net result is involved in determining salvation, rewards and stripes. Predestination is real but not at a personal level; the messages to the seven churches in Revelation show that salvation is not predestined to anyone. It is predestined that most will have access to the covenant of God

I agree, except that I believe that all men will have an opportunity to have access to the covenant.

• God created Adam & Eve in exactly the manner He chose to - with, among things, specific levels of morals.

Adam was created in God's image you cannot get any better than that. But God gave him the ability to exercise his own will.

The Bible teaches that God has already ordained whatever will come to pass.

I don't think so.
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
God makes it very clear that He had nothing to do with this evil. He didn't command it, speak it (as He did all creation), neither did it enter His mind to have them do such a thing.
Did God know they would do this, sure, but that doesn't me He predestined it to happen.

Now consider that the foreordination of God, the determining beforehand of all that comes to pass, is essential to His being God. If He didn't determine before what will happen in every circumstance down to the minutest detail He is little more than a man. If He looks down through time and knows what will happen and then determines to react in a certain way when it does He is not worthy to be trusted for He must change since He, just like a man, must learn from His knowledge. If He can change He can't be trusted. If He learns then He isn't omniscient.

In order to be God He has to predestine everything that happens? It seems to me as God He can choose to predestine what He chooses to and not other things.
Man is the one that thinks, if I were God I would choose to micromanage all things. I wouldn't give anyone a real choice in any matters.

He has determined, purposed if you will, everything that happens in order to accomplish His purpose. If He didn't then man would be able to thwart Him and He would be constantly reacting to what man does, which puts man in the drivers seat instead of God.

Huh? Because man does something that God didn't make happen man could thwart God? God would constantly be reacting to what man does? Only if you think God cares about when you mow the lawn. The things that God has ordained will be carried out whether man co-operates or not, He's God.
God planned all the abortions that are taking place, that is all God's doing? If that is true then we shouldn't be trying to stop them because they are God ordained, in God's will.
God doesn't do evil or tempt men with evil, so abortions must not be evil.

Now man does have a will and he makes choices but he does it exactly as God has determined for him to do.

So when someone gets an abortion God determined that she would do this evil? Remember Jeremiah.

When Eve brought him the fruit Adam knew the penalty and that she must die. He chose to die with her.

God never told Eve that she would die, He never told Adam that Eve would die, Eve wasn't even created yet. He told Adam that he would die. Neither were Eve's eyes opened to the knowledge of good and evil until after Adam ate. Neither does the sin nature come from Eve but from Adam. We don't know what would have happened if Adam had not disobeyed God.

 

[sparow]

He always knew the beginning to the end.

You pray, God answers. God knew you would pray and He knew how He would answer.

God didn't say He was sorry He was destroying man, He said He was sorry He ever created man to begin with.
So that would be like you saying to were sorry that you ever got your cat to begin with.

I do not believe they are mutually exclusive. They can both be true at the same time.

I agree, except that I believe that all men will have an opportunity to have access to the covenant.

Adam was created in God's image you cannot get any better than that. But God gave him the ability to exercise his own will.

I don't think so.
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
God makes it very clear that He had nothing to do with this evil. He didn't command it, speak it (as He did all creation), neither did it enter His mind to have them do such a thing.
Did God know they would do this, sure, but that doesn't me He predestined it to happen.

In order to be God He has to predestine everything that happens? It seems to me as God He can choose to predestine what He chooses to and not other things.
Man is the one that thinks, if I were God I would choose to micromanage all things. I wouldn't give anyone a real choice in any matters.

Huh? Because man does something that God didn't make happen man could thwart God? God would constantly be reacting to what man does? Only if you think God cares about when you mow the lawn. The things that God has ordained will be carried out whether man co-operates or not, He's God.
God planned all the abortions that are taking place, that is all God's doing? If that is true then we shouldn't be trying to stop them because they are God ordained, in God's will.
God doesn't do evil or tempt men with evil, so abortions must not be evil.

So when someone gets an abortion God determined that she would do this evil? Remember Jeremiah.

God never told Eve that she would die, He never told Adam that Eve would die, Eve wasn't even created yet. He told Adam that he would die. Neither were Eve's eyes opened to the knowledge of good and evil until after Adam ate. Neither does the sin nature come from Eve but from Adam. We don't know what would have happened if Adam had not disobeyed God.

I expect Jesus will follow His own preaching and not cast pearls before swine. It is possible for a person not invited to demand an invitation so long as he proceeds to keep the commandments and the covenant.

 

[Ahermit]

... Does this make God false? Did God know you would decide otherwise? Do you have free will to make this kind of decision? Does the scenario even apply to God's foreknowledge and our ability to have free-will or is everything determined already?

For me God would know you would not mow the yard when the time came. The question arises when does God know what the outcome will be? God always knew? God knew just before you decided? What questions does this raise about God being in control?

God is Truth.
God is also not restricted by anything like time and space (when and where).
God (Truth) is the ONLY reality. There is nothing to control, it is. As God said, "I AM".

The trouble with these questions is that we are caught up in the time-space continuum. Our body-mind perceptions are locked into this world. But our soul-mind, or Spirit of Truth mind, through faith, 'knows' the Truth. However, the body-mind of knowledge cannot understand it. So our 'knowing' of the Truth is certainty, but we cannot grasp it without faith.

That is why such questions don't make much sense to us, and many jump to the conclusion that God is only restricted to our own body-mind knowledge.

Hope this has helped.

 

[Thewonderer]

You pray, God answers. God knew you would pray and He knew how He would answer.

All bases covered there then.

 

[KCfromNC]

I respectfully disagree. Given, for the sake of argument, an omniscient god, free will is equally feasible.

Sure, if you define free will as being predetermined to have no choice but to do exactly what an omniscient being knows you will and nothing else. Which some people do, of course, which tells me that this subject is hopeless lost to philosophers playing word games.

 

[Albion]

God's omniscience means that he must have had complete knowledge of the universe's history before he even created it.

God's omnipotence means that, in principle, he could create whatever universe he liked, with whatever history he liked.

Therefore, when he created this universe, he must have done so in the knowledge, and with the intention, that it should have precisely the history it will have. Which is just another way of saying that God preordains everything.

Well, no. It only means he knew how it would turn out.

If you throw a ball into the air, you know for a certainty if it'll come down or not, but that doesn't mean that you have "made" it fall back to Earth.

 

[lesliedellow]

Well, no. It only means he knew how it would turn out.

If you throw a ball into the air, you know for a certainty if it'll come down or not, but that doesn't mean that you have "made" it fall back to Earth.

Since I am neither omnipotent nor omniscient, and I haven't created a universe to my own liking, I don't see how my throwing a ball into the air is even remotely relevant. Unless you are planning to join the ranks of the open theists, to cut God down to size.

 

[Albion]

s

Since I am neither omnipotent nor omniscient, and I haven't created a universe to my own liking, I don't see how my throwing a ball into the air is even remotely relevant.

It's an analogy, leslie.

Of course, no comparison of anything we observe in our world can completely address God's own powers and perception, but you need to understand that knowing the future does not automatically mean making all that will take place do so. We can indeed see example from our own lives of knowing the future but not causing it. To think that the one necessitates the other is illogical, regardless of whether it's God or ourselves.

 

[lesliedellow]

It's an analogy, leslie.

Of course, no comparison of anything we observe in our world can completely address God's own powers and perception, but you need to understand that knowing the future does not automatically mean making all that will occur take place, and that we can see this in our own lives. To think that the one necessitates the other is illogical.

If God can foresee everything and create whatever universe he chooses, then it follows by the most elementary logic possible that he chose to create a universe with precisely the history this one would have. To put it bluntly he chose to create a universe in which (along with everything else) the Nazi Holocaust occurred where it did and when it did.

That may be a disturbing thought, but the conclusion is inescapable.

 

[Albion]

If God can foresee everything and create whatever universe he chooses, then it follows by the most elementary logic possible that he chose to create a universe with precisely the history this one would have.

Not at all. That's a non-sequitur and pure speculation about God's decision-making.

To put it bluntly he chose to create a universe in which (along with everything else) the Nazi Holocaust occurred where it did and when it did.

That may be a disturbing thought, but the conclusion is inescapable.

What's inescapable is that he created a world in which that was possible.

There's the critical difference between your theory and the facts of the matter.

 

[lesliedellow]

Not at all. That's a non-sequitur and pure speculation about God's decision-making.



What's inescapable is that he created a world in which that was possible.

There's the critical difference between your theory and the facts of the matter.

He created a universe in which he knew it would happen - not might happen, and it was his own sovereignly free choice to do that.

 

[Albion]

He created a universe in which he knew it would happen - not might happen, and it was his own sovereignly free choice to do that.

We've already agreed that he knew the future. That's not in question. What you are missing is the fact that he knew Hitler would appear, etc. but not that he willed it to be part of human history.

When it comes to his MAKING something happen, as apart from knowing it would happen, he allowed sin to occur, and it's sin that accounts for such failings as Naziism. To say that God wanted sins or Nazis or created sin or Nazis is just silly. It's contrary to Christianity concept of God, anyway.

 

[lesliedellow]

We've already agreed that he knew the future. That's not in question. What you are missing is the fact that he knew Hitler would appear, etc. but not that he willed it to be part of human history.

If he did not will it, why didn't he create an alternative universe, in which it didn't happen, and Hitler was stillborn? That he created the universe that he did means that he willed the universe that he did.

 

[quatona]

Well, no. It only means he knew how it would turn out.

If you throw a ball into the air, you know for a certainty if it'll come down or not, but that doesn't mean that you have "made" it fall back to Earth.

Unless, of course, you have created the natural laws that made it inevitably fall back.

 

[Albion]

Unless, of course, you have created the natural laws that made it inevitably fall back.

That wouldn't apply to what we've been discussing, though.

 

[twin1954]

s
It's an analogy, leslie.

Of course, no comparison of anything we observe in our world can completely address God's own powers and perception, but you need to understand that knowing the future does not automatically mean making all that will take place do so. We can indeed see example from our own lives of knowing the future but not causing it. To think that the one necessitates the other is illogical, regardless of whether it's God or ourselves.

The problem I see with the thinking that God knew what would happen is that it denies God as the Sovereign sitting on the throne ruling His creation. So lets look at what sayeth the Scriptures.

First of all we know that the enjoinment to Adam was in that day that he ate of the forbidden tree he would surely die. God didn't say to Adam if you do but when you do. He had determined that it be so in order to exalt Christ. His purpose was to glorify Himself is sovereign mercy to chosen sinners. Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world and the first promise of the Gospel is immediately after the Fall. (Gen. 3:15) Colossians 1 clearly tells us that Christ was to have the preeminence in all things. ( Col. 1:17-18 ) And we find in 2Tim. 1 that grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world but is now made manifest by the appearing of Jesus Christ according to His own purpose and grace. (2Tim. 1:9)

We then have Joseph, who was hated by his brothers, sold into slavery and who was made to rule over Egypt. What was it that he told his wicked brothers? Gen. 50:20 has Joseph telling his brothers that they had meant it for evil but God meant it for good. God, purposing and using the evil of his brothers, not only saved the Hebrews but did it in such a way as to typify Christ in a beautiful picture.

We can find example after example of the sovereign purpose of God ruling and overruling the evil of men to bring about His purpose of grace in Christ Jesus.

But again what do the Scriptures say?

(Psa 115:3) But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

(Pro 16:1) The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

(Pro 16:4) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

(Pro 16:9) A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

(Pro 16:33) The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

The greatest example of the sovereign rule of the Lord over the wickedness of men is seen in the crucifixtion (sp?) of Christ.

(Act 2:22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

(Act 2:23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

We also have the testimony of the Scriptures in many places such as Isa. 14:24,27:
(Isa 14:24) The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

(Isa 14:26) This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

(Isa 14:27) For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?


(Dan 4:34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

(Dan 4:35) And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


It is evident from the Scriptures, and I have given only a few examples, that God has purposed to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy and that He rules all things as He has determined to bring to pass what He has purposed. But I will give you one last example in the Scripture just in case you are not yet convinced:

(Eph 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

(Eph 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

(Eph 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

(Eph 1:6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

(Eph 1:7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

(Eph 1:8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

(Eph 1:9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

(Eph 1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

(Eph 1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Albion]

The problem I see with the thinking that God knew what would happen is that it denies God as the Sovereign sitting on the throne ruling His creation.

For God to know the future is to deny Him his Godly nature??

We can find example after example of the sovereign purpose of God ruling and overruling the evil of men to bring about His purpose of grace in Christ Jesus.

OK, how does that rule out the possibility of God knowing the future?

 

[twin1954]

For God to know the future is to deny Him his Godly nature??

There is a great difference between knowing the future and determining the future. If God only knows the future then He reacts to what He knows which makes Him learn and,just like a man, must change His plan. As a construction superintendent I had to deal daily with the problems that presented themselves and adjust not only my schedule but my plans. I had a finished product in mind but had to constanly make adjustments to accomplish my goals. Does God do that?

OK, how does that rule out the possibility of God knowing the future?

God knows the future because He has determined the future. It isn't a matter of Him knowing what will happen but determining what will happen.

 

[Albion]

There is a great difference between knowing the future and determining the future.

Correct.

If God only knows the future then He reacts to what He knows which makes Him learn and,just like a man, must change His plan.

Not necessarily. Maybe this is the point which divides us.

As a construction superintendent I had to deal daily with the problems that presented themselves and adjust not only my schedule but my plans. I had a finished product in mind but had to constanly make adjustments to accomplish my goals. Does God do that?

The difference is that you COULD NOT see the future. You were adjusting to developments that occurred BECAUSE you weren't able to foresee them. That's quite a difference.

 

[twin1954]

Correct.

How is it then that God knows the future without determining the future?

Not necessarily. Maybe this is the point which divides us.

If God has not determined the future how is it that it doesn't necessarily follow that He must learn and react to what He sees? You will have to explain to me how knowing the future without determining the future doesn't necessarily follow that He must learn and react.

The difference is that you COULD NOT see the future. You were adjusting to developments that occurred BECAUSE you weren't able to foresee them. That's quite a difference.

I certainly knew the end from the beginning. I had a purpose in view that we were going to erect a building of a certain size and height with each side having a certain look and every detail of the interior. I knew how each stage of the construction was to be carried on and even how many days it should take to erect it. What I didn't know was when a certain person would not show up when they were supposed to or when the rain would hold us up. I saw the future partially but had I known every detail of the future I would have then planned for it which means that I learned from my foresight and made changes in my plan because of it.