Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

It is more in their control after they are regenerated - born again.
John 6
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

To be granted to come is an enabling to come to Christ in belief and that gift comes from God, whatever you want to call this, re-generation, born-again, renewed in your mind by the Holy Spirit, made alive, repentance, these are all gifts. All those who have been granted to come to Christ, do come to Christ. BECAUSE those granted to know them are taught by the LORD spiritual truths. and then they make the 'free will' choice to believe. God primes the pump, he frees them from the blindness of their minds placed there by Satan. Those who are perishing, their minds are blinded by Satan. You are not a free agent, unless Christ makes you free.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

This is said in context of speaking to the Jews and those who were taught by God. Those Jews who heard the Word of God and were taught by Him, would be drawn to Jesus Christ so as to accept Him as their Savior. This is not talking about how God forces someone against their will to believe. In other words, the Pharisees tried to take the Kingdom by force. They wanted to serve themselves and God.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Every word of the OT is Jesus Himself.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

The OT and the NT are one; they are the same Word. You are wanting to separate them.



I've not fallen from grace; even you don't believe one saved can fall from grace. Come on Marvin, you are slipping from your doctrines.



If you believe the NT, you would believe the words of Jesus, which tells us how to inherit eternal life. I have already given this to you.



So, living in sin keeps you from keeping His commandments. John says some pretty harsh things about not keeping His commandments.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I see you have two choices, keeping His commandments and have the truth in you, or as John says, not keep His commandments and present yourself a liar.

Here what Paul says about living in sin -

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

What excuse do you have for living in sin when God forbids it? Why continue in sin if you are freed from sin? Why are you letting sin reign in your mortal body to obey its lusts?



But the OT says this -

Psalm 119:105
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Psalm 119:130
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Is there not light in the OT writings?



What's a better place to have your hope than in the very words of Jesus?



I will repeat John's words again for you -

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

If you don't keep His commandments (the law), why should I believe 'your' truth?



I am well prepared to meet Him face to face! That logic won't get very far with me, Marvin.

Do Calvinists get their beliefs from different Spirits? Why would the Spirit teach different things to different Calvinists?

Actually, the Old Testament Law of Moses is done away with. Believers are to obey the Commands in the New Testament and not the Old Testament. For even the moral laws have changed because the moral laws in the Old Testament were attached with death penalties if you disobeyed them. That is not the case today. Scripture says that Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. Jesus was changing things even during His Earthly ministry. He said to no longer render an eye for an eye but to turn the other cheek. This is a change in the Law. In fact, Scripture says there is a change in the Law (Hebrews 7:12). Also, Peter was told by God in a vision to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of Old Testament Law). The temple veil has been torn from top to bottom and the priesthood of the Old Covenant has ended. Jesus Christ is now our high priest and mediator. A mediator of a New Covenant. The Old Laws are merely shadows now that point to Jesus Christ. The believer today is only obligated to obey the Commands in the New Testament (and not the Old).


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[Marvin Knox]

Well, a person shouldn't need a Bible to tell them that sucidie is a sin that will lead them straight to hell. But never the less the Bible does confirm such a truth whether you like it or not. But the verses I posted are unmistakable. Only if a person choosees not to see it, I imagine that such a truth will allude them.....

Your saying that "a person shouldn't need a Bible to tell them that suicide is a sin that will lead them straight to hell" tells me something.

Like most of your theology - your stance on this doctrine starts with an opinion as to how you think things should be.

Then you find scriptures that can be twisted or taken out of context that can be used to back up your opinion.

On the other hand I look at the scripture in it's entirety and systematically determine what is and is not correct doctrine. I do that no matter what I think things would be like if I was running the universe.

Even the truth concerning how people are saved has escaped you for the very reason I just stated IMO.

This is why there are very few, if any at all, systematic theologies that would agree with your doctrine regarding salvation.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If that is what you see when you look at what Christ has done for us, then I feel sorry for you. Jesus Christ willingly laid down His own life for the sheep. For God so LOVED the world. "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends." (John 15:13). ....

You'll say just about anything to keep from seeming wrong won't you?

“this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.” Acts 2:23

“For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. ………………” 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

"But the Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief." Isaiah 53:10

 

[Marvin Knox]

The Bible is clear. God will destroy that person who destroys the temple. No murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Suicide is self murder. Judas and Saul both committed suicide and were clearly not saved according to the Scriptures. ...

If - as you stress - no one killed Jesus but He laid down His own life --- then it was "self murder".

 

[Marvin Knox]

No. Circumcision was not of men but it was of God under the Old Covenant. Circumcision was initially commanded by God during the Old Testament. Also, Scripture says,

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith" (Romans 4:11).....

Don't be silly - of course circumcision was commanded by God but it was done by human hands.

Not everyone who did it received the circumcision made without hands.

That's one real thing. The other things are only shadows of the real thing.

The seal of the Holy Spirit cannot be broken by human hands and God will not break it Himself. That fact is, after all, the entire point of the passage concerning the seal of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The OT and the NT are one; they are the same Word. You are wanting to separate them.

No - you are. You pick and choose, often leaving out the teachings of Paul which are also God's Word.

I've not fallen from grace; even you don't believe one saved can fall from grace. Come on Marvin, you are slipping from your doctrines.

I am quoting Paul as you should know.

I do believe that one can fall from grace. That's not the same doctrine as what you have just mentioned concerning the doctrines taught about eternal security. I'm pretty sure you know that. I don't have the time for games like that.

If you believe the NT, you would believe the words of Jesus, which tells us how to inherit eternal life. I have already given this to you.

I do believe the Words of Jesus.

He told His hearers that the only way to eternal life was to keep the commandments - all if them.

He then further expands that idea in His Word by saying that no one can possibly keep them all. He tells us the remedy for that problem. It is to rest in the substitutionary death of Himself as our only hope of salvation.

I'm sure you have read those words as well even if you choose to ignore them when it suits your purposes.

What's a better place to have your hope than in the very words of Jesus?

I place my hope there as well. I place them in all of the Words of Jesus - including those that tell me what I must do because of the fact that I can not keep the commandments perfectly and so be saved.

Do Calvinists get their beliefs from different Spirits? Why would the Spirit teach different things to different Calvinists?

What an absolutely silly thing to ask.

I won't be troubling you again on these things.

Good luck with your gospel when all is said and done.

I honestly do hope that people can still be saved and be as far off in their doctrine as you and Jason are.

Time will tell I suppose.

 

[EmSw]

No - you are. You pick and choose, often leaving out the teachings of Paul which are also God's Word.

I am quoting Paul as you should know.

If a person only had the words of Jesus, could he get saved?

Does Paul teach that one should keep the commandments to inherit eternal life?

I do believe that one can fall from grace. That's not the same doctrine as what you have just mentioned concerning the doctrines taught about eternal security. I'm pretty sure you know that. I don't have the time for games like that.

I do believe the Words of Jesus.

So you don't believe in eternal security! How is a person saved without grace? You are riding your rocking horse like a true Calvinist.

He told His hearers that the only way to eternal life was to keep the commandments - all if them.

He then further expands that idea in His Word by saying that no one can possibly keep them all. He tells us the remedy for that problem. It is to rest in the substitutionary death of Himself as our only hope of salvation.

Which commandment can you not keep? I think this is what this discussion all boils down to.

Besides, you have conveniently left out 1 John 2:4.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

How are you going to convince us you have the truth in you? John says you are a liar if you do not keep His commandments. Until you settle this with yourself, I think it is best we leave this discussion alone.

I'm sure you have read those words as well even if you choose to ignore them when it suits your purposes.

I place my hope there as well. I place them in all of the Words of Jesus - including those that tell me what I must do because of the fact that I can not keep the commandments perfectly and so be saved.

What an absolutely silly thing to ask.

How do I know you are telling me the truth, Marvin? Can I test this by the words of John?

I won't be troubling you again on these things.

Good luck with your gospel when all is said and done.

I honestly do hope that people can still be saved and be as far off in their doctrine as you and Jason are.

Time will tell I suppose.

Again, carefully consider the words of John. Since you admit to not keeping, nor able to keep the commandments of Jesus, I will let you be, and hopefully believe John's words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

At it's core, what is blasphemy based upon?

I explained the passage 1 Thess 5:4-11, and this is your response?? Didn't you at least read it? And where in the world does that question come from?

Well, blasphemy is based on a moral code.

Like Hammurabi's? No, blasphemy is disrespect towards God. Like rejecting His Word.

But in your world view: Morality does not exist while under grace.

This demonstrates just how out of touch you are with my views. When believers are in fellowship (1 Jn 1), filled with (Eph 5:18) and walking by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16), they ARE moral as God intends. Anything LESS than this means loss of fellowship, and sin.

So techincally, there is no such thing as blasphemy if you do not hold to a moral code.

Since I DO hold to God's moral code, your comments are irrelevant.

As for 1 Thessalonians 5: Well, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 should leave you in silence. It says test or prove all things and hold onto that which is good. Hold....to....that....which....is....good.

How does that verse refute what I've explained about v.4-11? Of course believers are to hold on to what is good. I've said nothing to the contrary.

Does not sound like we have a license to sin to me.

What would make anyone think it takes a "license" to sin anyway? Being born sinners with a sin nature, sin comes naturally.

And since you think I have promoted a theology with a "license to sin", please at least cite the post # and my specific words. Or apologize for so badly misunderstanding my posts.

But you are saying that doing evil in God's name does not effect your good standing with Him.

I've said NOTHING of the like. I'm sure that you aren't even reading my posts. Must be that you're just knee-jerk reflexing on someone else's thoughts that you've ascribed to me.

Aren't you aware of Heb 12:5-11?

But such talk is absolute rubbish and you know it deep down.

Yes, that is exactly my assessment of your post here. It is absolute rubbish and I believe that you do know it deep down.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I will not stop proclaiming the truth of God's Word. I would rather die than stop.

....

Uh, you haven't actually started yet. Your views are so far out of line with Scriptrue and the principle of grace.

btw, please explain what you understand of GRACE. I'd love to know.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, a person shouldn't need a Bible to tell them that sucidie is a sin that will lead them straight to hell.

What a ridiculous statement. The ONLY SOURCE for knowing what is sin and what is not is from the Bible. NO OTHER place.

But these kind of statements are beginning to demonstrate just how far out of line your theology is compared to Scripture.

[QUTOE] But never the less the Bible does confirm such a truth whether you like it or not.[/QUOTE]
Except you haven't yet proven your claim from Scripture.

But the verses I posted are unmistakable.

Unmistakable for NOT supporting your claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If that is what you see when you look at what Christ has done for us, then I feel sorry for you. Jesus Christ willingly laid down His own life for the sheep. For God so LOVED the world. "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends." (John 15:13).


....

Please explain WHY Christ died for us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Bible is clear. God will destroy that person who destroys the temple. No murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Suicide is self murder. Judas and Saul both committed suicide and were clearly not saved according to the Scriptures. ...

Yup, proving again that you haven't read my posts to you. I pointed out that souls will live for eternity; either with God or apart from God.

So when Scripture speaks of God destroying people, it refers to physical death. Only the physical body can be destroyed. So once again, your verse doesn't support your claims.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If a person only had the words of Jesus, could he get saved?

Does Paul teach that one should keep the commandments to inherit eternal life?



So you don't believe in eternal security! How is a person saved without grace? You are riding your rocking horse like a true Calvinist.



Which commandment can you not keep? I think this is what this discussion all boils down to.

Besides, you have conveniently left out 1 John 2:4.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

How are you going to convince us you have the truth in you? John says you are a liar if you do not keep His commandments. Until you settle this with yourself, I think it is best we leave this discussion alone.



How do I know you are telling me the truth, Marvin? Can I test this by the words of John?



Again, carefully consider the words of John. Since you admit to not keeping, nor able to keep the commandments of Jesus, I will let you be, and hopefully believe John's words.

 

[EmSw]

So Marvin, you have nothing to say about 1 John 2:4?

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Marvin, maybe you should give this passage a good, long look. You still have time.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So Marvin, you have nothing to say about 1 John 2:4?

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Marvin, maybe you should give this passage a good, long look. You still have time.

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:37-40

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”

Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9

Christianity 101.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Your views are so far out of line with Scriptrue and the principle of grace.

Spoken by one who has a view of grace that began in the mid 20th century and is without merit scripturally.

Your view of grace was NOT born of sound exegesis but of a reaction against Reformation theology. This is the historical fact of it.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Spoken by one who has a view of grace that began in the mid 20th century and is without merit scripturally.

Your view of grace was NOT born of sound exegesis but of a reaction against Reformation theology. This is the historical fact of it.

There's some truth to what you say and also some truth to what FreeGrace2 said.

 

[EmSw]

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:37-40

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”

Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9

Christianity 101.

So Marvin, you haven't told us what you will do with 1 John 2:4. Why are you avoiding this passage?

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Do you think you are excluded from this passage? This passage should have every believer looking within themselves to see if they are in line with the truth written.

If you do not want to adhere to this passage, it is perfectly understandable. Man gets to choose whatever he believes. Since you believe in predestination, maybe God has predestined you to not believe this passage.

Anyway you want to deal with this passage, your beliefs have you in a world of hurt.

This passage alone puts Calvinism and its offshoots within the confinements of lying. Maybe you don't want to believe this, but the truth of this passage will stand mightily against your beliefs. You can fight against this truth, but I guarantee you will lose every time. You can argue against John and me all you want, but, it will do you no good.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your saying that "a person shouldn't need a Bible to tell them that suicide is a sin that will lead them straight to hell" tells me something.

Like most of your theology - your stance on this doctrine starts with an opinion as to how you think things should be.

Then you find scriptures that can be twisted or taken out of context that can be used to back up your opinion.

On the other hand I look at the scripture in it's entirety and systematically determine what is and is not correct doctrine. I do that no matter what I think things would be like if I was running the universe.

Even the truth concerning how people are saved has escaped you for the very reason I just stated IMO.

This is why there are very few, if any at all, systematic theologies that would agree with your doctrine regarding salvation.

No. I am telling you that man has a moral compass in letting him know that certain things are right and wrong. The Scriptures talk about this,

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Romans 2:14).

For a person in our culture today who does not know right from wrong or does not have any moral compass is called a "sociopath." This is why I am deeply troubled by many here who claim to hold to a sin and still be saved doctrine. In other words, for a person to hold to a sin and still be saved doctrine means that they have to turn off their moral compass or in what they know deep down to be right.


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