Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Douggg]

That is correct. I believe 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corinn 15 describe that aspect of the second coming, I believe Matt 24 an Rev 19 describe a different aspect of the second coming. As I pointed out there are things that line up from all of them . I believe it is error to make another coming just because of the different aspects described. Think about what I pointed out, no 2 coming of the Lord passages are identical, do we make 5 or 6 comings because they don’t all agree on every point?

I don't think anyone has argued that there are 5 or 6 comings. I think the argument is - is there a separate coming for the rapture/resurrection, from Jesus's Second Coming return to this earth

 

[Postvieww]

May I make a suggestion? If you want to hold to the post trib view, do it in a manner that leaves you open to the chance you could be wrong. You could say that you are anytime rapture view, that the rapture could take place anytime between now and when it actually does..... but you lean toward the post trib probability because, then give all your rationale.

The anytime rapture view is a phrase I coined for myself, because I get tired of arguing the rapture so much... which if a person takes a rigid pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib, post-trib stance becomes locked in. When really, all we can do is be ready ourselves, to be watching looking up, hopeful for it to take place. We can't control the rapture with our arguments.

The anytime rapture view is a good view, and the only view that it is impossible to be wrong.

I respect your humility. I can be wrong on things and I have been wrong on things. I study a lot and pray for guidance on these issues. I am used to dealing with some on this forum who have never been wrong about anything. I do not take these things lightly. I am a show me person. I will make my points and try my best to explain using scripture. I am pretty settled on post trib, I have been on the other side of that fence, for most of my life actually. I didn’t change easily. I try to bring up points to make someone think. Example, I have raise the point numerous times that no 2 coming of the Lord passages are identical, so how can we then build our case by pointing out differences. I like to harmonize scriptures rather that divide them. There is much to harmonize. So far no one as addressed that head on, all I get is a restating of the pre trib postion. Trust me I know most all of the arguments and even learned a few new ones from Lamad. If I’m wrong show me simple as that. But be prepared to discuss why. God Bless

 

[Postvieww]

I don't think anyone has argued that there are 5 or 6 comings. I think the argument is - is there a separate coming for the rapture/resurrection, from Jesus's Second Coming return to this earth

No they haven’t, but using the logic by some to determine which are pre- trib one could, and it would make as much sense.

 

[Douggg]

I respect your humility. I can be wrong on things and I have been wrong on things. I study a lot and pray for guidance on these issues. I am used to dealing with some on this forum who have never been wrong about anything. I do not take these things lightly. I am a show me person. I will make my points and try my best to explain using scripture. I am pretty settled on post trib, I have been on the other side of that fence, for most of my life actually. I didn’t change easily. I try to bring up points to make someone think. Example, I have raise the point numerous times that no 2 coming of the Lord passages are identical, so how can we then build our case by pointing out differences. I like to harmonize scriptures rather that divide them. There is much to harmonize. So far no one as addressed that head on, all I get is a restating of the pre trib postion. Trust me I know most all of the arguments and even learned a few new ones from Lamad. If I’m wrong show me simple as that. But be prepared to discuss why. God Bless

I try to get them who hold the pretrib view to adopt the anytime rapture view as well. That way we can still have our differences as what we lean to, but will always be right with Jesus, in watching looking up, hopeful for the rapture to take place.

Once the 70th weeks starts, pret-trib if meant to be pre-70th week, and no rapture has happened - then those holding the anytime rapture view are still right with Jesus, even though the pre-trib as pre-70week itself will have been proven to be wrong.

The anytime rapture view is a good view.

 

[ivebeenshown]

May I make a suggestion? If you want to hold to the post trib view, do it in a manner that leaves you open to the chance you could be wrong. You could say that you are anytime rapture view, that the rapture could take place anytime between now and when it actually does..... but you lean toward the post trib probability because, then give all your rationale.

The anytime rapture view is a phrase I coined for myself, because I get tired of arguing the rapture so much... which if a person takes a rigid pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib, post-trib stance becomes locked in. When really, all we can do is be ready ourselves, to be watching looking up, hopeful for it to take place. We can't control the rapture with our arguments.

The anytime rapture view is a good view, and the only view that it is impossible to be wrong.

What a nice post. Amen brother.

 

[Postvieww]

Pre trib:
Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


Second coming:
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Re 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Re 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Re 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved:

Lu 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Anybody with even minimal knowledge of scripture recognizes the differences of the "Times" between the Rapture and Second coming.

Short Timer said:

Pre trib:

Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Post trib:

Luke 17: 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Nobody here taken to heaven.

Post Trib:

Rev 19: 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Nobody here taken to heaven. You’ve had this pointed out to you numerous times, believe it . It is what the bible says.

Second coming:

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Sounds a lot like Matt 24, Rev 6.

Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Note: The Lord shouts in Jer. 25:30 sounds a lot like 1 Thess 4:16.

Re 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Re 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Re 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Are you saying the Lord comes back in Rev 16? There are no islands or mtns. moved in Matt 24, or Joel 2.

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved:

Mark 13:20b “but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

Do you know who those elect are?

Lu 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Note He is in a cloud in Luke as well as 1 Thess. Wherever He is there is power and great glory. He only comes as a thief to those who are not looking for Him.


Anybody with even minimal knowledge of scripture recognizes the differences of the "Times" between the Rapture and Second coming.

Then how come you can’t recognize the differences in 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2 and 1 Corin 15?

You love to respond to my posts but very rarely address the points raised.

 

[iamlamad]

I try to get them who hold the pretrib view to adopt the anytime rapture view as well. That way we can still have our differences as what we lean to, but will always be right with Jesus, in watching looking up, hopeful for the rapture to take place.

Once the 70th weeks starts, pret-trib if meant to be pre-70th week, and no rapture has happened - then those holding the anytime rapture view are still right with Jesus, even though the pre-trib as pre-70week itself will have been proven to be wrong.

The anytime rapture view is a good view.

Can you hold to this view and EXPECT Jesus to come any time and be watching?

 

[iamlamad]

I don't think anyone has argued that there are 5 or 6 comings. I think the argument is - is there a separate coming for the rapture/resurrection, from Jesus's Second Coming return to this earth

Some think there is a coming in Rev. 4:1. Some think there is a coming at the 6th seal. Others are sure He will come at the 7th trumpet. John tells us He will come in Rev. 19, after the 70th week. I choose just before the 6th seal AND Rev. 19.

 

[Short Timer]

Anybody with even minimal knowledge of scripture recognizes the differences of the "Times" between the Rapture and Second coming.

Then how come you can’t recognize the differences in 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2 and 1 Corin 15?

You love to respond to my posts but very rarely address the points raised.

Wow, You're so far out in left field you can't "See" anything.

At the time of the rapture, the world is not expecting anything to happen, like in Naoh's days, life is going on "Normally", people marrying/planting crops, expecting a big future, but Jesus comes to rapture the church.

At the time of the second coming the world has experienced a time so bad, there has never been one like before or ever will be again, most of the population has been killed by famine/wars/natural disasters or the AC, mountains/Islands disappearing, and the planet headed toward "No flesh" surviving unless Jesus does come,

And you expect us to believe there won't be any differences between the rapture compared to Noah's days and the Second coming at the end of the world???

Didn't you read my other post about the rapture was never intended to be for Israel, only the "Body of Christ", church??

 

[keras]

There is a lot of discussion here on when a rapture to heaven will happen.

The prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 mentions a rising up of those who remain alive when Jesus Returns. Also Matthew 24:31 refers to the same event, where the chosen people are gathered to Him.
But this event cannot mean going to heaven, as Jesus has departed from heaven and entered on His reign, Revelation 19:6. He brings the souls of the martyrs with Him, Revelation 19:1, and they are resurrected , Revelation 20:4
Then the Marriage Feast of the Lamb takes place, Revelation 19:7 It takes place during the extra 75 days prophesied by Daniel 12:12. Where this feast will be, we are not told, but it cannot be in heaven, as Jesus is by then on earth, having defeated the attacking armies. Zechariah 14:3, Revelation 19:17-21

So there is no rapture to live in heaven for any living person, this entire theory is a false teaching, designed by Satan to confuse and delude people in these last days of this era.

Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the Holy Land and will live there forever.

 

[Riberra]

That's one way of looking at it. The other way is the air is the cosmos, the second heaven, which Satan is the prince of power of the air

There is no air in the cosmos where the moon and stars are located,have you ever watched the astronauts wearing their space suit when working outside the space station or the astronauts walking on the moon .

- which is the domain of the rebellious angels, which that second heaven will be removed in the sixth seal - leaving no place for Satan and his angels there any more. Satan and his rebellious angels are not roaming around freely in the third heaven where God is, otherwise there would be sin in heaven (the third heaven).

There is a passage saying that Satan is vindicating the elects day and night before God.

Do you think Jesus when he ascended up into the cloud in Acts 1, from there, passed through the Cosmos on his way to heaven where God's throne is ?

We do know the Cosmos exists. We don't know it's limits. But imo there must be an entry point, called a door metophorically, that is some sort of dimensional portal, which travel is done between the second and third heavens.

Angels good or bad are interdimensional beings... and they can appears as human being /or "extra-terrestrials coming in space ships " if they which...

Revelation 12:
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Are you saying that Satan was allowed refuge in the Third Heaven after the "destruction of the Second Heaven/COSMOS" at the 6th Seal ?

Because Jesus coming exclusively for the redemption of the body of both the living and dead, it's actual happening, was shrouded in a mystery in the the OT.

The coming of the Messiah (First Advent/Coming) was mentioned in Daniel 9.

It was not until Paul's letters of how that mystery will take place.

Paul's letters are about the resurrection of those who died/sleep in Christ and the changing into immortality of those in Christ still alive and remain and about our gathering (Rapture) in the clouds in the air to meet Jesus unto His coming.
There is nothing in Paul's letter about a "mystery coming."
You are locked in -by your mindset that Paul was talking about a "Mystery Coming" ....which is not what Paul is talking about.

 

[Douggg]

Paul's letters are about the resurrection of those who died/sleep in Christ and the changing into immortality of those in Christ still alive and remain and about our gathering (Rapture) in the clouds in the air to meet Jesus unto His coming.
There is nothing in Paul's letter about a "mystery coming."
You are locked in -by your mindset that Paul was talking about a "Mystery Coming" ....which is not what Paul is talking about.

Apart from Paul's letters, the only conclusion that a person could come to reading the four gospels and anywhere in the ot - is that a person must die, before their body is redeemed, which would be by a resurrection.

There was no accommodation for the living. That there would be one generation of believers that would not die; that their bodies would be redeemed without dying. That's the mystery Paul spoke of. And that event is described by Paul in 1thessalonians4:13-18, with Jesus himself coming exclusively to perform it.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Apart from Paul's letters, the only conclusion that a person could come to reading the four gospels and anywhere in the ot - is that a person must die, before their body is redeemed by a resurrection.

There was no accommodation for the living. That there would be one generation of believers that would not die; that their bodies would be redeemed without dying. That's the mystery Paul spoke of. And that event is described by Paul in 1thessalonians4:13-18, with Jesus himself coming exclusively to perform it.

Jesus said that there would be some standing there that would not die until they saw him coming in his Kingdom. Matthew 16, Mark 8 & Mark 9, and Luke 9 if I recall correctly.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus said that there would be some standing there that would not die until they saw him coming in his Kingdom. Matthew 16, Mark 8 & Mark 9, and Luke 9 if I recall correctly.

Yes, and although that pertained to him departing this world in Acts 1 to arrive in heaven, the Kingdom of Heaven, in Daniel 7, let's say it is talking about any living person seeing Jesus arriving back to earth. It is not saying in that passage that those living would have their bodies redeemed - for corruptible to incorruptible while they were living.

 

[Riberra]

Apart from Paul's letters, the only conclusion that a person could come to reading the four gospels and anywhere in the ot - is that a person must die, before their body is redeemed, which would be by a resurrection.

There was no accommodation for the living. That there would be one generation of believers that would not die; that their bodies would be redeemed without dying. That's the mystery Paul spoke of. And that event is described by Paul in 1thessalonians4:13-18, with Jesus himself coming exclusively to perform it.

Reread the text

Paul is not talking about a WHOLE GENERATION of believers that will not die. .Paul is talking about a REMNANT of those in Christ ( alive and REMAIN) unto the coming of Jesus that will not die = will be changed into immortality along with those who have died /sleep in Christ "freshly" resurrected.

re·main/rəˈmān/
verb

continue to exist, especially after other similar or related people or things have ceased to exist.


1 Thessalonians 4 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive AND REMAIN unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Short Timer]

So there is no rapture to live in heaven for any living person, this entire theory is a false teaching, designed by Satan to confuse and delude people in these last days of this era.

Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the Holy Land and will live there forever.

Mt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Mt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Kingdom of heaven is the literal place we call Heaven.

The kingdom of God is the "Spiritual Kingdom"...."Within each person".

And Jesus plainly spoke of people going to Heaven.

When Jesus ascended to heaven he took the OT saints in Abe bosom with him.

 

[Short Timer]

Apart from Paul's letters, the only conclusion that a person could come to reading the four gospels and anywhere in the ot - is that a person must die, before their body is redeemed, which would be by a resurrection.

There was no accommodation for the living. That there would be one generation of believers that would not die; that their bodies would be redeemed without dying. That's the mystery Paul spoke of. And that event is described by Paul in 1thessalonians4:13-18, with Jesus himself coming exclusively to perform it.

You're right, there was never a rapture promised to Israel, only the church, which is why you won't find a rapture mentioned any place God is dealing with Israel,

Just as Jesus/church was a mystery not revealed to Israel, neither was the rapture of the church, that's why all three Jesus/church/rapture, was/still is a mystery to Israel.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

God deals with Israel under the "law and prophet", (two witnesses)
Jesus deals with the church under "Grace" from the law.

The law and prophets stopped when Jesus came and can't start again until Jesus leaves, rapture,

or the "Fulness of the Gentiles".

 

[BABerean2]

Mt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Mt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Kingdom of heaven is the literal place we call Heaven.

The kingdom of God is the "Spiritual Kingdom"...."Within each person".

And Jesus plainly spoke of people going to Heaven.

When Jesus ascended to heaven he took the OT saints in Abe bosom with him.

Dispensationalists make this claim in order to get a kingdom for the Church in heaven and a separate kingdom for the Jews on earth.

However, they are the same.


Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


We will share the New Jerusalem with Abraham and the other Old Testament saints.


Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

.

 

[keras]

Jesus said that there would be some standing there that would not die until they saw him coming in his Kingdom. Matthew 16, Mark 8 & Mark 9, and Luke 9 if I recall correctly

Bible lesson 101: John 21:23 This saying of Jesus became current among Christians.....but what Jesus meant was: If it be My will that anyone not die before I Return, then what is that to you?

And Jesus plainly spoke of people going to Heaven.

Bible lesson 102: Jesus said many times that no one goes to heaven. John 3:13, John 15:17, John 7:34 and in Revelation 5:10: His saints will reign with Him on earth.
For now, His kingdom is not of this earth, but one Day soon He will come in His glory and physically reign for 1000 years.

 

[keras]

there was never a rapture promised to Israel, only the church, which is why you won't find a rapture mentioned any place God is dealing with Israel,

Actually, the only Bible prophecy that can be thought of as a kind of rapture is Revelation 12:14, where the 'woman' is taken to safety on earth, who you rapture believers must make out to be Israel, because you have to agree that the people referred to in Revelation 12:17 has to be Christians, the Church.
But the truth is, both groups are true believers and Daniel 11:32 tells us how they are divided.