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Logical Problems with Calvinism

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GillDouglas

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I said this:
"Blanket statements such as "you've been shown many time from Scripture" can be heard from both Arminians regarding loss of salvation as much as from Calvinists regarding the points I challenge them on.

And neither side ever produces verses that actually and plainly and really say what they claim."

How about challenging me on what I claim? Or would you rather not?
I believe that both sides would agree that no matter what we say in defense of our belief or in offense of the opposing belief, it seems to do little good. What it does seem to do is sharpen the already held belief, and maybe for those who are on the fence, helps them decide which belief to stand behind. It's why there are and will always be so many denominations. So even if Marvin challenges your points it will do little to change your mind, but it doesn't hurt for him to try.
 
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Marvin Knox

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A man who does not keep the commandments to love God and love his neighbor is not one of us. Yet who are we to say that a man, in his current state of disbelief, is not destined to be become one of us? It is God who chooses, not us. It is God who has the power, not us. It is God who judges, not us. A man who is made new will still struggle with sin, yet he continually strives to love God and his neighbor by the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not until we shed this mortal coil that we become fully sanctified and return to a state like Adam in the beginning. Any man who says he loves God and claims he no longer sins is a liar. It was intended, by His design, that we continue to struggle. If we are fully sanctified and holy as you claim to be, what need do you have for a Savior? What need to you have to pray to Him? What need do you have to go the church, just as a healthy person has no need for a hospital? But even a liar who has been misled by men has the potential for a change of heart and the saving grace of God.
These concepts are really basic to anyone who has truly trusted in Christ.

It seems to me that there are quire a few here who have either not trust in Christ's work for their salvation or who for some reason skipped over basic doctrine on their way to becoming armchair theologians.

As a result they are preaching what may well be considered another gospel - a gospel of the merit of men to earn salvation.

The doctrine of the substitutionary atonement of Christ is brought to naught by their ill advised teachings.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I said this:
"Blanket statements such as "you've been shown many time from Scripture" can be heard from both Arminians regarding loss of salvation as much as from Calvinists regarding the points I challenge them on.

And neither side ever produces verses that actually and plainly and really say what they claim."

How about challenging me on what I claim? Or would you rather not?
I have - many times.

You either say that you do not consider my arguments sound - or you deny some really basic principle that is clearly taught in the scriptures concerning the nature and attributes of God and His providentially contolling relationship with His creation.
 
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GillDouglas

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These concepts are really basic to anyone who has truly trusted in Christ.

It seems to me that there are quire a few here who have either not trust in Christ's work for their salvation or who for some reason skipped over basic doctrine on their way to becoming armchair theologians.

As a result they are preaching what may well be considered another gospel - a gospel of the merit of men to earn salvation.

The doctrine of the substitutionary atonement of Christ is brought to naught by their ill advised teachings.
It is those who teach this type of salvation that we need to be aware of and adamant about showing them where they are wrong. It is one thing to misunderstand a difficult theological point, but to misrepresent the Truth of the Gospel is entirely another thing and completely unacceptable. Of all the individuals I've argued with on these forums, @EmSw is the worst offender.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Considering the obviously flawed logic presented in the OP - this thread seems to be going for some kind of record.

That's probably because this debate about Calvinism has been presented many times from just about every angle imaginable.

Might as well just vent here on this thread rather than try to approach it from some new angle.:)

Still........I might start a new thread about the illogical nature of Arminian theology and see where it goes.

(Oh - and FreeGrace theology also. Oh - and from my non-Calvinist Reformed theology also, Oh - never mind - maybe I'll just come at it from it the illogical Arminian theology side and let others chime in as well.):rolleyes:
 
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Marvin Knox

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It is those who teach this type of salvation that we need to be aware of and adamant about showing them where they are wrong. It is one thing to misunderstand a difficult theological point, but to misrepresent the Truth of the Gospel is entirely another thing and completely unacceptable. Of all the individuals I've argued with on these forums, @EmSw is the worst offender.
There are some worse - with whom I've discussed things in the past.

But he is certainly right up there in the top tier.

At first I thought that he just didn't understand what Calvinists believed. Then I thought that he might just be a little slow.

But after a lot of give and take and correcting him many times - with him only continuing to make the same charges again and again - I've come to believe that it is really something quite a bit deeper and much more dangerous.

Top that off with his quite often saying some really silly and illogical things and it is really exasperating. I've sworn off talking to him a few times only to break down and try to reason with him again and again.

2 Timothy 4:1-3 "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires…"

We want to do what the Lord charges us with. But it gets quite tiresome after a while for sure.
 
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EmSw

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Let's examine your thoughts on "doing good" a little deeper, and, of course, using Scripture as our guide. Fair enough?

Go for it.

What did Jesus say to the unbelieving Jews and Pharisees? John 5:39 - “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me".

The Jews were taught by the Pharisees that they would receive eternal life by obeying the Law. It was a works-based system of salvation.

And here, Jesus refutes them directly in their view from the very next verse: "and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."

Okay, those Pharisees were unbelievers. However, you say you are a believer. Can you not obey anything Jesus said?

The phrase "come to Me" refers to placing their faith in Him FOR eternal life. Just count the times Jesus directly said that eternal life is given on the basis of faith in Him: Jn 3:15,16,18, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-27. And John the baptizer echoed Jesus' words in 3:36 and John the apostle summarized his gospel by echoing Jesus' words in 20:31.

I'm going to use your logic. The phrase says, 'come to me'. This is referring to those who come to Him if they were able. But since, like you said, everyone is a sinner, they can't come to Him. This isn't speaking to anyone; it's just a phrase Jesus used to show that you can't come to Him, and that if you could come to Him, you would could receive eternal life.

Now, Paul also echoed Jesus' teaching in Romans. In fact, he refuted those, like you, who believe that by "doing good" one will be saved, or have eternal life.

First, he makes this point: - 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life Rom 2

Hm. Kinda sounds like what you've been claiming. He even said this: - for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. Rom 2:13

Where does Jesus refute anyone for doing good? Perhaps you should read Matthew 26 and show who Jesus refuted.

And yes, it does sound like what I've been claiming; imagine that! I believe it, you don't.

So, it is really possible for anyone to fulfill either of these verses?

No, for Paul then makes this point crystal clear:
3:9 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Here is your flawed logic. This verse says nothing about anyone not able to do good. You include it to try to justify your beliefs. Since you are under sin, and can't come to Him, I'm afraid that leaves you out.

How clear is that? All have sinned, and all are under sin. Therefore, NO ONE can fulfill what he wrote in 2:6,7,13. His point in those verses is that ONLY those who are perfect would be able to receive eternal life. But he wrote 3:9 and 23 to PROVE that no one can do that.

Clear as mud! Since you are a sinner and not perfect, you will never receive eternal life; this is your according to your doctrine. You have just proved you are not really a believer.

Not only that, but consider 3:20 - because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Here, he directly SAYS that no one will be justified by keeping the Law, or doing good. That was NOT the purpose of the Law anyway. It was to bring knowledge of man's sin.

Wow, you are really getting entangled now. John says anyone who does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. Since you choose not to keep His commandments, or should I say, can't keep His commandments, you will never have the truth in you. So why should I believe anything you say, if you don't have the truth in you?

Paul even said that in another epistle: "Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made." Gal 3:19

iow, the Law came because of man's sin, and was in effect until Christ came, "to whom the promise (of salvation) had been made".

Then, Paul clarifies:
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Again, I will use your logic. Since you are under sin, you are not able to be lead to Christ. Paul is writing this to prove man he cannot be lead to Christ. If you could be lead to Christ, you would then be a son of God. But since your sins prevents this, you cannot be a son of God, even if you think you are.

The purpose of the Law was to teach us about sin and lead us to Christ, who died for our sins and that we would be justified by faith, NOT WORKS.

v.26 is quite clear about how one becomes a son of God: through faith in Christ. NOT BY WORKS.

One would have to reject All of Romans and all of Galatians in order to accept your view. I will not do it.

Again, being under sin, you cannot be lead to Christ. Since you can't be lead to Christ, you will never have faith in Him. Everything Paul writes proves you can't do these things. Since you can't do good, even though a true Christian can do ALL things through Christ, I guess you are hanging out there by yourself.
 
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EmSw

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How do you keep His commandments perfectly? Otherwise you would seem to be a liar according to the verse.

Do you commit adultery every day? Do you lie every day? Do you covet your neighbor's possessions every day? Is sin a continual master over you?

The Bible says plenty about casting away your iniquities, fleeing sin, and turning from your sin.

Man can keep His commandments, because they are not burdensome. If His commandments says to not commit adultery, I find strength from Him, and choose not to commit this sin. Any person who is in Christ has His strength available to them.
 
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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭28:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so this is what I see for this verse and this makes sense to me.

It's says exactly the way that I said. If you confess and forsake sin, you shall have mercy. To have mercy means to have forgiveness or salvation. Do you need verses that associate forgiveness or in having God's mercy with salvation?


...
 
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EmSw

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A man who does not keep the commandments to love God and love his neighbor is not one of us. Yet who are we to say that a man, in his current state of disbelief, is not destined to be become one of us? It is God who chooses, not us. It is God who has the power, not us. It is God who judges, not us. A man who is made new will still struggle with sin, yet he continually strives to love God and his neighbor by the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not until we shed this mortal coil that we become fully sanctified and return to a state like Adam in the beginning. Any man who says he loves God and claims he no longer sins is a liar. It was intended, by His design, that we continue to struggle. If we are fully sanctified and holy as you claim to be, what need do you have for a Savior? What need to you have to pray to Him? What need do you have to go the church, just as a healthy person has no need for a hospital? But even a liar who has been misled by men has the potential for a change of heart and the saving grace of God.

As John said, if you say you know Him and do not keep the commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

If you don't know Him, I can understand your struggles with sin while living to the flesh. I have never said I don't sin any longer. I have decided to choose God and His living word, and live according to it. If His commandments say to not covet my neighbor's possessions, I look to Him for strength to overcome this sin.

Many can't overcome sin because they don't go to the Lord and submit themselves to His word. They had rather pity themselves in their sin and not repent and turn from their sins.
 
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GillDouglas

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Man can keep His commandments, because they are not burdensome. If His commandments says to not commit adultery, I find strength from Him, and choose not to commit this sin. Any person who is in Christ has His strength available to them.
Man cannot keep His commandments, that is why He has chosen to forgive us through the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.
 
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EmSw

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Not an answer to what i wrote.

It is a qualifying answer nonetheless.

The typical twisting of words that others have said. When you were born again, were you so born as a completely mature christian? No, of course not. You had to learn. but you won't make that allowance for anyone else. You apparently think that keeping His commandments is a conscious, deliberate, and effort-filled action that one cannot do except by exertion and deliberate intent. Can't have anyone doing these things automatically, because it is in their new nature to do so. No sir, you have to grind it out.

You have every effort now to learn of God and His word, and commit yourself to obey His commandments. Keeping His commandments is a conscious, deliberate, and effort-filled action. That's why many fail at obeying them; they think this comes automatically. If the opportunity, or temptation, comes to man, he must deliberately and willfully choose to overcome it.

True Christians keep His commandments, because it is in their nature to do so. if they are not doing so, and not repenting of their failure to do so, then they are not true Christians. This constant trying to indict true Christians with sin is tiresome, and wrong.

So, do you with your new nature keep His commandments all the time? If not, then according to you, you are not a true Christian.
 
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EmSw

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Man cannot keep His commandments, that is why He has chosen to forgive us through the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

Which of the Ten Commandments can man not keep? I am puzzled by your statement. Can you not do ALL things through Christ which strengthens you?
 
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GillDouglas

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As John said, if you say you know Him and do not keep the commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

If you don't know Him, I can understand your struggles with sin while living to the flesh. I have never said I don't sin any longer. I have decided to choose God and His living word, and live according to it. If His commandments say to not covet my neighbor's possessions, I look to Him for strength to overcome this sin.

Many can't overcome sin because they don't go to the Lord and submit themselves to His word. They had rather pity themselves in their sin and not repent and turn from their sins.
You say that if I do not know Him you can understand why I still struggle with sin. You also say that you look to Him for strength to overcome sin that you struggle with. So according to your own words, you do not know Him. Or do you mean to say that we are all sinners, we all struggle with sin, and need Christ daily to overcome our struggle.
 
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GillDouglas

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Which of the Ten Commandments can man not keep? I am puzzled by your statement. Can you not do ALL things through Christ which strengthens you?
None of them; alone man cannot keep any of them. Through Christ all things are possible.
 
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EmSw

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None of them; alone man cannot keep any of them. Through Christ all things are possible.

I know plenty of unsaved who haven't committed murder. I wonder how they kept this commandment. Perhaps you can tell me.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"Blanket statements such as "you've been shown many time from Scripture" can be heard from both Arminians regarding loss of salvation as much as from Calvinists regarding the points I challenge them on.

And neither side ever produces verses that actually and plainly and really say what they claim."

How about challenging me on what I claim? Or would you rather not?
I believe that both sides would agree that no matter what we say in defense of our belief or in offense of the opposing belief, it seems to do little good. What it does seem to do is sharpen the already held belief, and maybe for those who are on the fence, helps them decide which belief to stand behind. It's why there are and will always be so many denominations. So even if Marvin challenges your points it will do little to change your mind, but it doesn't hurt for him to try.
We'll see if he accepts the challenge to challenge my views.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"Blanket statements such as "you've been shown many time from Scripture" can be heard from both Arminians regarding loss of salvation as much as from Calvinists regarding the points I challenge them on.

And neither side ever produces verses that actually and plainly and really say what they claim."

How about challenging me on what I claim? Or would you rather not?
I have - many times.

You either say that you do not consider my arguments sound - or you deny some really basic principle that is clearly taught in the scriptures concerning the nature and attributes of God and His providentially contolling relationship with His creation.
This is just so wrong. When one asks me for verses that support my views, I ALWAYS provide them.

And I see that you really aren't interested in challenging me about verses that support my claims. Or you would have.
 
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EmSw

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You say that if I do not know Him you can understand why I still struggle with sin. You also say that you look to Him for strength to overcome sin that you struggle with. So according to your own words, you do not know Him. Or do you mean to say that we are all sinners, we all struggle with sin, and need Christ daily to overcome our struggle.

Sir, I know I offend you, in fact, one of the biggest offenders on this forum. I guess I should be thankful, by this I know I am blessed by the Lord.

I said those who do not keep His commandments do not know Him, not those who struggle with sin. You said no one can keep His commandments, so no one can know Him according to your words.
 
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