Logical Problems with Calvinism

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"How many sins did Christ pay for?"

So FG2, was your penalty for sin to die upon a cross? What exactly is the penalty for sin? To die for three days?

None of these non-responsive questions answers my question. The answer is ALL of them.

The answer to your first non-responsive question is that Christ paid the penalty for all of my sins.
The answer to your second non-responsive question is death.
The answer to your third non-responsive question is no.

Why are you so sure you have placed your faith in Him?

I find this line of questioning to be absurd. One would have to be insane, out of their mind to not know what they believe.

What exactly did you do to accomplish this?

I don't understand your question. Accomplish…what?

Do you believe the very words of Jesus?

Of course I do.

Do you believe it is those who do good who come forth to the resurrection of life?

That depends on what you think it means to 'do good'. If you think it means one is saved based on their doing good, then I reject that. Because the Bible says that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). Do you believe that or not?

Our salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2:9). Do you believe that or not?

From all your posts, it seems to me that you have rejected these 2 verses.

Sin will separate a person from Christ. Judas is an example.

I couldn't disagree more. We are born separated from God, which is spiritual death. When one believes in Christ, we have been promised that nothing can separate us from His love (Rom 8:35-39).

Oh FG2, NO ONE will 'get away' with sinning! No need to worry about losing blessings and eternal reward, for they will not enter the kingdom of God. They will be bound hand and foot, taken away, and cast into outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I see that you have some familiarity with words from Scripture. But it seems to me that you don't understand what they mean or teach.

Those who do evil will come forth to the resurrection of damnation. Perhaps you missed that verse, or, you don't believe it.

I cetainly don't believe your view, than one is saved by doing good, or that one can lose their salvation.

If one is saved by going good, then Christ died for nothing. I reject that idea totally.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Lot's of disagreement, yet not a stitch of evidence for your position. That's not how to debate or discuss."

You've been given scriptural evidence by the page and you will not accept it.

Whatever verses have been given, I've shown them not to teach what Calvinism claims. Pages and pages.

You even go so far as to say that the Holy Spirit who convinced people in the scriptures of the identity of Christ did not do it from "within".

Let's be clear here. There is no evidence that He indwells people BEFORE they believe. All choices and decisions are made within the person, sure. But that's NOT the indwelling Holy Spirit.

You will even hold to a silly thing like that because you feel it is necessary to undermine any possible connection to election.

I've proven from Scriptural evidence that the Calvinist view of election is in error.

I've shown 6 categories of election, and NONE of them were elected for salvation. No one has refuted the 6 categories.

If you'll do a thing like that - another page or two of scriptures would be just casting truth before you so you can trample it under foot.

This is pure nonsense. As you well know.

Calvinists cannot show from Scripture that grace is irresistible.
Calvinists cannot show from Scripture that God chooses who will believe.
Calvinists cannot show from Scripture that God decides all actions in human history.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since no one has responded to this, I will bring it to the forefront once again.

Who on this forum believes anyone can be saved without the truth?

No one can be saved apart from the truth.

Who on this forum believes liars can be saved?

Why would lying prevent one from being saved? Christ died for ALL sins. And all sin. So NO SIN can keep anyone out of heaven.

Who believes anyone can be saved without keeping His commandments?

Paul proved that no one will be saved by keeping the law or His commandments. Rom 3:20 - because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Who believes anyone can be saved without knowing Him?

Saving faith requires knowing Him.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Since no one has responded to this, I will bring it to the forefront once again.
Who on this forum believes anyone can be saved without the truth?

Not me.

Who on this forum believes liars can be saved?

I do.

Who believes anyone can be saved without keeping His commandments?

Qualify this question please. Thanks.

Who believes anyone can be saved without knowing Him?
Not me.

Answering these four questions will reveal quite a bit about one's beliefs.

I look forward to any submitted answers.

Please qualify that third question before you judge my beliefs.
I look forward to your explaining what you mean by that question.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Also, if a person is regenerated before they have faith in Christ and the work of the cross, this means a person is saved not by the cross at first, but they are first saved by something else.

In other words, if one says they are saved without faith in Christ and His finished work by some kind of regeneration before faith, then they are denying that the cross is what ultimately saves us. Instead, it is some kind of regeneration as the alternative.....

I've never met or read a Calvinist who believed what you say here.

They all believe that a person is justified by faith.

You've been corrected on this point before.

If you want to know what Calvinists believe - just ask. Your opinion doesn't count.

Granted, regeneration or the new birth is taught in Scripture. But this takes place as the result of a person believing the gospel (i.e. believing that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and was risen to given them a new life).....

Both regeneration and the need for the new birth are taught in scripture.

The new birth, as you say, "takes place as the result of a person believing the gospel (i.e. believing that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and was risen to given them a new life).

It is debatable when regeneration takes place and how it takes place exactly.

Regeneration and the new birth are not the same thing. You've been corrected on this before.

The Calvinist's message is heavily focused on God predetermining things. Yet, our main focus as a believer is to love others by telling them the good news. We are to be a light to a dark and dying world. Young Earth Creationists focus on Young Earth Creation. Calvinists focus on Calvinism. Yet, as good as such a teaching can be, the main focus of our ministry is not God's Soveignty, Young Earth Creationism, etc. Our main focus is to love God and love others and spread the good news of Jesus Christ and preach the power of the cross. ...

***Amen. Well said.

*** That is so long as you are not saying that the gospel that Calvinists preach is focused on predestination - because that simply isn't any more true than that the young earth creationist's gospel focuses on young earth creationism or that the pre-millennialist's gospel focuses on the millennial reign of Christ or that people who believe in and preach about the rapture of the Church include that intramural issue in their presentation of the gospel. Because those things are simply not true.

For I have even heard it said by some that Calvinism is the gospel.
But that really is not the case....

I have heard a couple of Calvinists say such things in my lifetime. But that is not the norm by any stretch of the imagination.

I have also heard non-Calvinists say that their view on the free choice of man vs. the sovereignty of God in salvation is the gospel. I have heard it said many times that the Calvinist's views on these things is an evil and hated thing. I have even heard it said that the God of the Calvinists is an evil, vindictive and caprecious God. These types of things are something that I have heard a lot more by far than the other thing that the Calvinists are being accused of by you.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Calvinists cannot show from Scripture that grace is irresistible.
Calvinists cannot show from Scripture that God chooses who will believe.
Calvinists cannot show from Scripture that God decides all actions in human history.

All of these things have been shown to you from scripture many times.

You always reject them as valid proofs. So be it.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Jesus said this about being born again.
John 3
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born (again) of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
So two actions are involved to making a whole born again person, born again of water and the Spirit.

So what is this water?, it is the washing of regeneration.
And what is the Spirit?, the renewing in the Holy Spirit
A total agreement with Titus 3

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This is what He does, not what we do.

Jesus talks of washing in various places.
To those evil Pharisees and scribes, He tells them they must be cleansed on the inside, and notice this is not something they can do for themselves. He is telling them that is what God does.
Matthew 23
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Then in John 13, Jesus tells them He washes them clean. They do not wash themselves clean.
John 13
8 Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”
Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”
9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!”
10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”

Unless Christ washes us we have no part in Him. So we are born again of His washing us clean on the inside, the regeneration.
And we are renewed of the Holy Spirit to complete our being born again.
This is not water baptism, this is a work of the Holy Spirit apart from us, He makes us born again, that is born of God so that we receive the adoption as sons of God since He is our Father, we are therefore adopted into His family.

As we also read John 6, Jesus teaches that those who are drawn, and then they all come to Christ those who have heard and learned from the Father. Just as Christ washed His disciples and they were cleansed on the inside, so too are those who are drawn-dragged to Christ by God cleansed on the inside, they are born again by the Holy Spirit, and that is not of their doing, nor of their will, nor of their flesh, it is the gift of God lest any would boast.
John 1

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those that received Him, he had already born them again of God. The flesh was excluded as being a part of the decision, it was entirely the gift of God that they were born again.

Good post; the 'washing of regeneration' has nothing to do with water baptism. Although it is reasonable to expect that those who are truly born again will wish to show their faith publicly by being baptised.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All of these things have been shown to you from scripture many times.

You always reject them as valid proofs. So be it.

Blanket statements such as "you've been shown many time from Scripture" can be heard from both Arminians regarding loss of salvation as much as from Calvinists regarding the points I challenge them on.

And neither side ever produces verses that actually and plainly and really say what they claim.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I've never met or read a Calvinist who believed what you say here.

They all believe that a person is justified by faith.

You've been corrected on this point before.

If you want to know what Calvinists believe - just ask. Your opinion doesn't count.

Both regeneration and the need for the new birth are taught in scripture.

The new birth, as you say, "takes place as the result of a person believing the gospel (i.e. believing that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and was risen to given them a new life).

It is debatable when regeneration takes place and how it takes place exactly.

Regeneration and the new birth are not the same thing. You've been corrected on this before.

***Amen. Well said.

*** That is so long as you are not saying that the gospel that Calvinists preach is focused on predestination - because that simply isn't any more true than that the young earth creationist's gospel focuses on young earth creationism or that the pre-millennialist's gospel focuses on the millennial reign of Christ or that people who believe in and preach about the rapture of the Church include that intramural issue in their presentation of the gospel. Because those things are simply not true.

I have heard a couple of Calvinists say such things in my lifetime. But that is not the norm by any stretch of the imagination.

I have also heard non-Calvinists say that their view on the free choice of man vs. the sovereignty of God in salvation is the gospel. I have heard it said many times that the Calvinist's views on these things is an evil and hated thing. I have even heard it said that the God of the Calvinists is an evil, vindictive and caprecious God. These types of things are something that I have heard a lot more by far than the other thing that the Calvinists are being accused of by you.

I've heard Calvinist teach many of the things that Jason has said. Many say that regeneration and being born again are the same thing.

However how many times is regeneration talked about vs born again. It is one big puzzle and the pieces are different depending on who you talk to.

 

[EmSw]

Not me.

Thank you Marvin; I don't think any of us believe we can be saved without truth.

Here is why I asked this question. We read in 1 John 2, the following:

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John plainly states that if a person says he knows Jesus, and does not keep the commandments is a liar and the TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

My question is, if we believe no one can be saved without truth, how does one justify salvation to a man who does not keep His commandments? Those who do not keep the commandments are liars and the truth is NOT in them.

I do.

So, you believe liars, who do not keep His commandments and no truth in them will be saved?

Qualify this question please. Thanks.

I will qualify this question with 1 John 2:3 and 4 in mind. You can read it above.

Please qualify that third question before you judge my beliefs.
I look forward to your explaining what you mean by that question.

I am not here to judge your beliefs Marvin; the word of God will be our judge.

So, with those verses in mind, will a man be saved who does not keep His commandments?

 

[EmSw]

No one can be saved apart from the truth.

I will give you the same verses I gave Marvin.

1 John 2
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

A person, according to John, who says he knows Jesus, and does NOT keep His commandments, is a liar and the truth is NOT in him. How is it that one who does not keep His commandments ever saved? There is no truth in him and he is a liar. According to John, truth is in a man if he keeps His commandments.

 

[EmSw]

That depends on what you think it means to 'do good'. If you think it means one is saved based on their doing good, then I reject that. Because the Bible says that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). Do you believe that or not?

Our salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2:9). Do you believe that or not?

Do you really not know what it means to do good? My mistake, please forgive me. I thought you would know what doing good is.

Any way, Jesus gives many examples of doing good to others, but it would take way too long to list them here. Perhaps you should read more about Jesus and His words.

Anyway, Jesus contrasts doing good in John 5:29 with doing evil in the same verse. Surely you know what doing evil is. Jesus only gives two kinds of people, those who do good and those who do evil. And He only gives two events for those people, the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of damnation.

Would you like to guess the final event for those who do not do good? It's really simple.

You reasoning about Ephesians 2:8 is like reading only the first three chapters of a 10-chapter book and thinking you know how it ends. You either get an incomplete picture of what the book is saying, or you make up your own ending.

From all your posts, it seems to me that you have rejected these 2 verses.

As I said above, these are only the first three chapters of the whole book.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So, with those verses in mind, will a man be saved who does not keep His commandments?

You asked the following question originally.

Who believes anyone can be saved without keeping His commandments?

The answer to the question is YES he can be saved.

So, you believe liars, who do not keep His commandments and no truth in them will be saved?

No - I do not believe that - as asked above.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I've heard Calvinist teach many of the things that Jason has said. Many say that regeneration and being born again are the same thing.

Me too.

They are wrong on both counts IMO.

However how many times is regeneration talked about vs born again.

Once vs. a few times in so many words.

It is one big puzzle and the pieces are different depending on who you talk to.

It is a puzzle and it was meant to be. This is a test.

"For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you." 1 Cor. 11:19

God could have made a number of doctrines much more clear. In fact He could have made the entire Word of God more clear.

I believe that, if one approaches the scriptures systematically and without emotional baggage concerning what would and what would not be fair for God to do, the doctrines concerning basic salvation and even those concerning such things as election and predestination are very clear.

 

[sdowney717]

Born again comes first to enter the kingdom of God second.

John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Born again involves those two parts, the regeneration, washing and the renewing of your spirit by the Holy Spirit. But Born again is an event orchestrated by God and when someone tells you you must be 'born again' the underlying understanding is that we are regenerated and also renewed to be 'born again' which is also 'born of God' . Like a car, you're not going to say to drive a car you must understand all the tiny pieces that make up the whole complete car before you can use it. The complexity behind the scenes belongs to God.

BUT this 'born again' experience occurs before our confessing Christ as Lord. We are not 'born again' after our believing in our heart and confessing with our mouth, you can not even say Jesus is Lord (genuinely) without the Holy Spirit. We are sealed after our believing, not born again after our believing as Ephesians 1 teaches.

Being 'born of the Spirit' is not justification, but all who are born again will be taught of God, believe and be then sealed in the Holy Spirit as Ephesians 1 says that occurs after you put your trust in Christ (justified by faith).

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.

Those who are born again will 'hear', that is they will harkon having the ears to hear, so they are taught by God, they respond in belief, and then the Holy Spirit seals them, puts His mark on them, they are then guaranteed of their eternal life inheritance that Christ said those who believe in Him will have, since he died, they get to inherit eternal life being a part of His will and testament.

We are also justified by His blood. Simply points to salvation being a gift of God. God does not believe for us, but He gives us everything we need to believe and be saved and all who are taught by God come to Christ and believe .

If you are not born again, you will not be learning about Christ from God and will not come to Christ and you will not be saved.
Those who receive Christ into their hearts and are saved have been born again of God first, that is regenerated and renewed in the Holy Spirit.

1 John 5 ESV
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Again our receiving Him is not done in the old man, the flesh, by the will of our choice prior to our being born again of God.
You must first be born again

John 1
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The reason some people do not like this being born of God first before we receive Him as Lord, speak aloud Jesus as Lord, is this reinforces that God elects us in Christ from the foundation of the world, which enforces our being foreknown, predestined to glorification. because it is God's choice who gets born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[EmSw]

You asked the following question originally.

I am sorry for using different words, which (can) make a difference. I (will) clarify now.

The answer to the question is YES he can be saved.

I definitely believe he CAN also, but WILL he be saved if he doesn't keep the commandments?

No - I do not believe that - as asked above.

The answer is predicated upon whether he actually keeps His commandments. For there is not truth in one who does not keep His commandments.

 

[EmSw]

BUT this 'born again' experience occurs before our confessing Christ as Lord. We are not 'born again' after our believing in our heart and confessing with our mouth, you can not even say Jesus is Lord (genuinely) without the Holy Spirit. We are sealed after our believing, not born again after our believing as Ephesians 1 teaches.

Why are Calvinists so adamant about being born again before believing? The one thing I can think of is that it keeps their doctrines intact.

John 1
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The reason some people do not like this being born of God first before we receive Him as Lord, speak aloud Jesus as Lord, is this reinforces that God elects us in Christ from the foundation of the world, which enforces our being foreknown, predestined to glorification. because it is God's choice who gets born again.

Why not read that verse again. It says, 'to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God...'.

Man is given the right to become children of God after they receive and believe Him. Being a child of God and the new birth happen simultaneously; you can't separate the two.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"No one can be saved apart from the truth."

I will give you the same verses I gave Marvin.

1 John 2
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

These verses are about knowing Him, not about getting saved. Even believers are vulnerable to error and lies. Which is why Paul said 4 times "brothers, I don't want you to be ignorant of these things" (Rom 11:25, 1 Cor 10:1, 12:1, 1 Thess 4:13).

And these 4 verses that indicate the reality of ignorant believers: (1 Cor 15:34, Heb 5:2, 1 Pet 2:15, 2 Pet 3:16).

A person, according to John, who says he knows Jesus, and does NOT keep His commandments, is a liar and the truth is NOT in him.

Yep, that is an ignorant believer. Which Paul warns against by teaching the deeper truths of Scripture (advanced doctrines).

How is it that one who does not keep His commandments ever saved?

By believing that He is the Son of God, and that He died for his sins, and promises eternal life to those who believe in Him.

Keeping His commandments is NOT related to getting saved. We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8), and not of works, lest anyone should boast (2:9).

There is no truth in him and he is a liar. According to John, truth is in a man if he keeps His commandments.

Yes, keeping Christ's commandments is the evidence of having truth and loving Christ. But this is not how one is saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"That depends on what you think it means to 'do good'. If you think it means one is saved based on their doing good, then I reject that. Because the Bible says that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). Do you believe that or not?

Our salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2:9). Do you believe that or not?"

Do you really not know what it means to do good? My mistake, please forgive me. I thought you would know what doing good is.

Seriously? Didn't you read what I asked you? I requested YOUR definition of what YOU think it means to 'do good'. Of course I know what it means, but I'm not sure at all what you think it means.

Any way, Jesus gives many examples of doing good to others, but it would take way too long to list them here. Perhaps you should read more about Jesus and His words.

It is clear that you seem incapable of answering my question. Which isn't that difficult to answer.

So it seems you think that being good will get you to heaven, huh. So why did Christ die for our sins? And why does the Bible SAY that we are saved by faith in Christ, NOT by being good.

Anyway, Jesus contrasts doing good in John 5:29 with doing evil in the same verse. Surely you know what doing evil is. Jesus only gives two kinds of people, those who do good and those who do evil. And He only gives two events for those people, the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of damnation.

No, Jesus recognizes only 2 kinds of people: saved and lost. And some saved people do evil. A thorough reading of Scripture reveals this.

You reasoning about Ephesians 2:8 is like reading only the first three chapters of a 10-chapter book and thinking you know how it ends. You either get an incomplete picture of what the book is saying, or you make up your own ending.

So this is your excuse for rejecting outright the clarity of that verse, huh?

 

[sdowney717]

Why are Calvinists so adamant about being born again before believing? The one thing I can think of is that it keeps their doctrines intact.



Why not read that verse again. It says, 'to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God...'.

Man is given the right to become children of God after they receive and believe Him. Being a child of God and the new birth happen simultaneously; you can't separate the two.

It is not a right that they exercised to become God's child, it is that they are God's child. God granted to them the adoption as His children.