Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[jerry kelso]

Sorry, it is NOT the sun clothed woman who flees: that was Israel when Jesus was born. It will be those in Judea who flee. Most will certainly be descendants of Jacob. Perhaps many of the "remnant" live in the US!
I pretty much agree: Good job!

iamlamad,


1. Sorry, that is incorrect according to the time factor of Revelation 1:19. Things hereafter is future from the tribulation.

2. This is the only place many put the historical context in the tribulation as a major interpretation.
Revelation 12:1-6.

3. The sun-clothed woman is Israel the physical nation in the last days who are travailing in Jacob's trouble. Daniel 12:1, Isaiah 66:8, Matthew 24:15.

4. The sun clothed woman was travailing in birth with a man child as well as her children Isaiah 66:7-8.
The great red dragon having 7 heads and 10 horns and the 7 heads have crowns. The 7 heads are the nations that oppressed Israel: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Revised Roman Empire.
He that is of the 7th is also the eighth which will be the Antichrist kingdom. Read Revelation 17:9-11.
Revelation 12 is the handing over the power, seat, and authority from Satan to the Antichrist. Revelation 13:2. Satan ruled the first six completely in the past and the 7th he will be over until the days of the 7th trumpet when the woman is chased into the wilderness by the Antichrist armies. Revelation 12:15-16.

5. The woman will bring forth a man child which is a company of the woman and this is the connection of the birth and they will rule all nations with a rod of iron: and they will be caught up to God and to his throne.
6. Saints will rule with a rod of Iron with Christ as supreme ruler and authority. Revelation 2:26-27. Revelation 14:1-5 they are caught up to heaven. The 144,000 are sealed in the 1st half of the tribulation protected through the trumpet judgements; Revelation 9:4 and in the days of the 7th trumpet which is in the middle of the tribulation will be raptured to heaven as the man child to God's throne. Revelation 14:1-5.

7. Satan will be mad for not being able to kill the man child and he will also lose the battle in heaven with Michael and the angels. Satan is then kicked out and goes after the woman and she is preserved in the wilderness and this is why in verse 17, the dragon is wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

8. Jesus was a man child historically but John had seen all that before. The 7th head which is Revised Roman Empire was not around in Jesus day so it could not be concerning Christ in his days as Messiah.

9. The historical context is for what purpose in this passage? It could be seen as the pivotal point of redemption concerning the Messiah and the Savior and Calvary and the great confrontation between the devil and God. Satan lost it there in the overall sense spiritually and Jesus took the keys of hell and death. Revelation 1:18 The physical aspect was won by way of Calvary but will not manifest until the time of the gentiles etc. because Christ has to take over the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15. This verse is not the fulfillment but it is the pivotal point in the tribulation. People get this confused because of the 7th trumpet. However, there will be many trumpets going on and that is another subject.

10. Isaiah 11:11; And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover he remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

11. This second time is in the tribulation and this is the context of the remnant of that day.

12. As I said before Jesus life was already witnessed by John and would not be relevant in the future context as far as the layout of the chapter. When Satan is kicked out of heaven he persecutes the woman which brought forth the man child. This with verse 17; the remnant of her seed denotes a birth has taken place at that time who is the 144,000 the man child. Jerry Kelso

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad,

Could you knock off the condemnation for at least this week, when we will celebrate the birthday of Christ?

In your response above, you seem to be implying that I am lying.

We can disagree, but your dependence on condemnation for those who disagree with John Darby's doctrine is not helping your arguments.

As a matter of fact, the condemnation is hurting your viewpoint when new people view these posts...

.

You seem always to sidestep questions.

I said nothing at all about you personally. I am not implying at all that you are lying. I think you are ad libing (creating from nothing) things are are not in the text. I can guess you do this because it fits your theory.

You always point to the 7th trumpet as the day Jesus returns. I challenge that because all I read at the 7th trumpet is that the kingdoms change from Satan to Jesus. I find nothing there about a coming, nothing about a gathering, and NOTHING to show that the 7th trumpet is out of order. Furthermore I see Jesus' coming later on in the book. All the above is your theory, not mine. I am only pointing out that your theory about the 7th trumpet does not come from scripture.
You are always pointing out the error of pretrib and Darby, now I am pointing out your errors.

Now, I do wish you would answer these questions. I am just being honest with your theory and wanting to take it into the future and see how it fits.

You have been, since I have been on this forum, against pretrib. You have made no apologies because you are sure pretrib is wrong, and you seem just as sure that pretrib originated with Darby. You are just as sure the 7th trumpet is Paul's last trump.

I will be forever against posttrib for I am just as sure it is bogus. I will be forever against the 7th trumpet being Paul's "last trump" because that is just as bogus.

Now that we are sure where each of us are on these matters, MERRY CHRISTMAS!

I do hope you will some day come to understand that the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week, not the end of the week. And how amazing, that is exactly where John put it in his narrative.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad,


1. Sorry, that is incorrect according to the time factor of Revelation 1:19. Things hereafter is future from the tribulation.

2. This is the only place many put the historical context in the tribulation as a major interpretation.
Revelation 12:1-6.

3. The sun-clothed woman is Israel the physical nation in the last days who are travailing in Jacob's trouble. Daniel 12:1, Isaiah 66:8, Matthew 24:15.

4. The sun clothed woman was travailing in birth with a man child as well as her children Isaiah 66:7-8.
The great red dragon having 7 heads and 10 horns and the 7 heads have crowns. The 7 heads are the nations that oppressed Israel: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Revised Roman Empire.
He that is of the 7th is also the eighth which will be the Antichrist kingdom. Read Revelation 17:9-11.
Revelation 12 is the handing over the power, seat, and authority from Satan to the Antichrist. Revelation 13:2. Satan ruled the first six completely in the past and the 7th he will be over until the days of the 7th trumpet when the woman is chased into the wilderness by the Antichrist armies. Revelation 12:15-16.

5. The woman will bring forth a man child which is a company of the woman and this is the connection of the birth and they will rule all nations with a rod of iron: and they will be caught up to God and to his throne.
6. Saints will rule with a rod of Iron with Christ as supreme ruler and authority. Revelation 2:26-27. Revelation 14:1-5 they are caught up to heaven. The 144,000 are sealed in the 1st half of the tribulation protected through the trumpet judgements; Revelation 9:4 and in the days of the 7th trumpet which is in the middle of the tribulation will be raptured to heaven as the man child to God's throne. Revelation 14:1-5.

7. Satan will be mad for not being able to kill the man child and he will also lose the battle in heaven with Michael and the angels. Satan is then kicked out and goes after the woman and she is preserved in the wilderness and this is why in verse 17, the dragon is wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

8. Jesus was a man child historically but John had seen all that before. The 7th head which is Revised Roman Empire was not around in Jesus day so it could not be concerning Christ in his days as Messiah.

9. The historical context is for what purpose in this passage? It could be seen as the pivotal point of redemption concerning the Messiah and the Savior and Calvary and the great confrontation between the devil and God. Satan lost it there in the overall sense spiritually and Jesus took the keys of hell and death. Revelation 1:18 The physical aspect was won by way of Calvary but will not manifest until the time of the gentiles etc. because Christ has to take over the kingdoms of this world Revelation 11:15. This verse is not the fulfillment but it is the pivotal point in the tribulation. People get this confused because of the 7th trumpet. However, there will be many trumpets going on and that is another subject.

10. Isaiah 11:11; And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover he remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

11. This second time is in the tribulation and this is the context of the remnant of that day.

12. As I said before Jesus life was already witnessed by John and would not be relevant in the future context as far as the layout of the chapter. When Satan is kicked out of heaven he persecutes the woman which brought forth the man child. This with verse 17; the remnant of her seed denotes a birth has taken place at that time who is the 144,000 the man child. Jerry Kelso

Jerry, I don't think you are reading Rev. 1:19 as it is written. John was to write things he had seen, which would be history, things present and things in the future. Then in chapter 4 when he was called up, he was told " I will show you what must take place after these things.” People seem to read this verse with an ONLY in it" as if God would ONLY show John future things. There is no only, and indeed God DID show John future things. However, nothing in chapter 1 or chapter 4 would prevent God from showing John some things in history as a background for things in the future - and that is exactly what God did and John did.

For example, God wanted to introduce John to the book or scroll, but would God go way back to Adam where I guess this scroll was created? God chose to start this part of the story with the scroll in the hand of the Father and a search for one worthy to break the seals. Since John was seeing this vision around 95 AD, this part of the vision was certainly history to 95 AD. It was even history to 70 AD, for it speaks of the very time Jesus rose from the dead to become the Redeemer, and become the one man worthy to break the seals.

Another example, Rev. 12:1-5 is about Jesus' birth, CERTAINLY history to John in 95 AD. In fact, John was not alive when Jesus was born.

When God was teaching me chapters 4 & 5, and I got stuck and could not answer His quesitons, He sent me to chapter 12. When I got my bible turned there and started to read, He gave me a synopsis of chapter 12:

"Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the dragon - and in particular what the dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns."

So I counted them up. If I remember, I counted 32. I agreed that the chapter was about the dragon. Then He continued:

" I chose to show John what the dragon DID when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

I heard this from Jesus Himself, the head of the Church. I believe Him. When I study chapter 12, what He said FITS. I got onto an online planetarium and found that exact sign as written, in 2 BC. It was very special and different than any other year near there, as there were 12 "stars" in her crown. But what I found was, three of those "stars" were planets that made the total to 12. Without the planets in her crown, there is not 12.

I have yet to see if this same sign will be repreated soon in our future.

Things hereafter is future from the tribulation.

Why wouldn't "things hereafter" be after 95 AD when John saw the vision?

The sun-clothed woman is Israel the physical nation in the last days who are travailing in Jacob's trouble.

Where do you get that? I read a perfect description of Jesus' birth and how Satan tried to kill Him as a child! Jesus DID come from Israel, and was born of a virgin, protrayed here in the constellation of Virgo. Since this is about His birth, how can you say it is about the last days? Perhaps you are thinking it is a dual prophecy or has a second meaning related to the midpoint of the week?

The sun clothed woman was travailing in birth with a man child

The sun clothed woman represents ISRAEL from which the Virgin Mary came from, and she DID give birth. But that was 2 BC. What words can you find in verses 1-5 that assisted you to come up with your theory? I am not saying you are wrong, I just can't find anything there that points to today.

I would say Isaiah 66:7-8 is a prophecy of Israel in 1948.

It is true, and we agree, the 144,000 come out of Israel and they will be caught up around the midpoint of the week. Do you think then that verses 1-5 have a second meaning of the 144,000?

Revelation 12 is the handing over the power, seat, and authority from Satan to the Antichrist.

I don't think I have ever seen this written before, but maybe I can agree with this. WHEN does the man of sin turn into the BEAST? Perhaps right here in chapter 12? It is not so written, but I believe it will happen shortly after the man of sin declares he is God, so the TIMING would be right for chapter 12.

The woman will bring forth a man child which is a company of the woman and this is the connection of the birth and they will rule all nations with a rod of iron

The problem I have with this is that the 144,000 are sealed just before the start of the week, and are caught up about the time you say they become "the manchild." Therefore I find your theory very weak here. Next, I have never believed in the "latter rain" saints that preach about "the manchild." That verse is clearly about the birth of Jesus Christ. Could it also have a second meaning? I don't know. We know that JESUS will rule with a rod of iron and we know we reign with him. So in a way the Bride of Christ could be said to rule with a rod of iron. Another thing, there is really nothing said about the 144,000 except that they are sealed. There is NOTHING about what they do. All that is conjecture. I once had a Jewish pastor (born again) that went on and on about the great exploits of these 144,000. It was all imagination, for NOTHING is written.

Satan will be mad for not being able to kill the man child

I don't think so! Satan is angry because he knows his time is SHORT. Three and one half years and he will be locked up. Satan probably WAS mad that King Herod missed Jesus.

Jesus was a man child historically but John had seen all that before

I don't think so: John was the youngest of the disciples. Jesus was already grown when John first met Him. Perhaps John was never told about how King Herod tried to kill Jesus.

The historical context is for what purpose in this passage?

God was introducing John to the Dragon, but CHOSE to show John how the Dragon had tried to kill Him as a young boy. The emphasis of the entire chapter is the DRAGON, and what the dragon would be doing in the last half of the week.

When Satan is kicked out of heaven he persecutes the woman which brought forth the man child.

I see this as the Dragon using the man of sin to go after the woman who fled. How do you see it?

I think I disagree about the "remnant of her seed." SHE is Israel. I picture "her seed" as the church, believers in Jesus Christ. After all, Jesus was a Jew and He began the church.

We agree on a LOT of things, which is very unusual on this forum! Good job!

 

[BABerean2]

You seem always to sidestep questions.

I said nothing at all about you personally. I am not implying at all that you are lying. I think you are ad libing (creating from nothing) things are are not in the text. I can guess you do this because it fits your theory.

You always point to the 7th trumpet as the day Jesus returns. I challenge that because all I read at the 7th trumpet is that the kingdoms change from Satan to Jesus. I find nothing there about a coming, nothing about a gathering, and NOTHING to show that the 7th trumpet is out of order. Furthermore I see Jesus' coming later on in the book. All the above is your theory, not mine. I am only pointing out that your theory about the 7th trumpet does not come from scripture.
You are always pointing out the error of pretrib and Darby, now I am pointing out your errors.

Now, I do wish you would answer these questions. I am just being honest with your theory and wanting to take it into the future and see how it fits.

You have been, since I have been on this forum, against pretrib. You have made no apologies because you are sure pretrib is wrong, and you seem just as sure that pretrib originated with Darby. You are just as sure the 7th trumpet is Paul's last trump.

I will be forever against posttrib for I am just as sure it is bogus. I will be forever against the 7th trumpet being Paul's "last trump" because that is just as bogus.

Now that we are sure where each of us are on these matters, MERRY CHRISTMAS!

I do hope you will some day come to understand that the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week, not the end of the week. And how amazing, that is exactly where John put it in his narrative.

Merry Christmas Lamad,

I still love you...

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry, I don't think you are reading Rev. 1:19 as it is written. John was to write things he had seen, which would be history, things present and things in the future. Then in chapter 4 when he was called up, he was told " I will show you what must take place after these things.” People seem to read this verse with an ONLY in it" as if God would ONLY show John future things. There is no only, and indeed God DID show John future things. However, nothing in chapter 1 or chapter 4 would prevent God from showing John some things in history as a background for things in the future - and that is exactly what God did and John did.

For example, God wanted to introduce John to the book or scroll, but would God go way back to Adam where I guess this scroll was created? God chose to start this part of the story with the scroll in the hand of the Father and a search for one worthy to break the seals. Since John was seeing this vision around 95 AD, this part of the vision was certainly history to 95 AD. It was even history to 70 AD, for it speaks of the very time Jesus rose from the dead to become the Redeemer, and become the one man worthy to break the seals.

Another example, Rev. 12:1-5 is about Jesus' birth, CERTAINLY history to John in 95 AD. In fact, John was not alive when Jesus was born.

When God was teaching me chapters 4 & 5, and I got stuck and could not answer His quesitons, He sent me to chapter 12. When I got my bible turned there and started to read, He gave me a synopsis of chapter 12:

"Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the dragon - and in particular what the dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns."

So I counted them up. If I remember, I counted 32. I agreed that the chapter was about the dragon. Then He continued:

" I chose to show John what the dragon DID when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

I heard this from Jesus Himself, the head of the Church. I believe Him. When I study chapter 12, what He said FITS. I got onto an online planetarium and found that exact sign as written, in 2 BC. It was very special and different than any other year near there, as there were 12 "stars" in her crown. But what I found was, three of those "stars" were planets that made the total to 12. Without the planets in her crown, there is not 12.

I have yet to see if this same sign will be repreated soon in our future.

Things hereafter is future from the tribulation.

Why wouldn't "things hereafter" be after 95 AD when John saw the vision?

The sun-clothed woman is Israel the physical nation in the last days who are travailing in Jacob's trouble.

Where do you get that? I read a perfect description of Jesus' birth and how Satan tried to kill Him as a child! Jesus DID come from Israel, and was born of a virgin, protrayed here in the constellation of Virgo. Since this is about His birth, how can you say it is about the last days? Perhaps you are thinking it is a dual prophecy or has a second meaning related to the midpoint of the week?

The sun clothed woman was travailing in birth with a man child

The sun clothed woman represents ISRAEL from which the Virgin Mary came from, and she DID give birth. But that was 2 BC. What words can you find in verses 1-5 that assisted you to come up with your theory? I am not saying you are wrong, I just can't find anything there that points to today.

I would say Isaiah 66:7-8 is a prophecy of Israel in 1948.

It is true, and we agree, the 144,000 come out of Israel and they will be caught up around the midpoint of the week. Do you think then that verses 1-5 have a second meaning of the 144,000?

Revelation 12 is the handing over the power, seat, and authority from Satan to the Antichrist.

I don't think I have ever seen this written before, but maybe I can agree with this. WHEN does the man of sin turn into the BEAST? Perhaps right here in chapter 12? It is not so written, but I believe it will happen shortly after the man of sin declares he is God, so the TIMING would be right for chapter 12.

The woman will bring forth a man child which is a company of the woman and this is the connection of the birth and they will rule all nations with a rod of iron

The problem I have with this is that the 144,000 are sealed just before the start of the week, and are caught up about the time you say they become "the manchild." Therefore I find your theory very weak here. Next, I have never believed in the "latter rain" saints that preach about "the manchild." That verse is clearly about the birth of Jesus Christ. Could it also have a second meaning? I don't know. We know that JESUS will rule with a rod of iron and we know we reign with him. So in a way the Bride of Christ could be said to rule with a rod of iron. Another thing, there is really nothing said about the 144,000 except that they are sealed. There is NOTHING about what they do. All that is conjecture. I once had a Jewish pastor (born again) that went on and on about the great exploits of these 144,000. It was all imagination, for NOTHING is written.

Satan will be mad for not being able to kill the man child

I don't think so! Satan is angry because he knows his time is SHORT. Three and one half years and he will be locked up. Satan probably WAS mad that King Herod missed Jesus.

Jesus was a man child historically but John had seen all that before

I don't think so: John was the youngest of the disciples. Jesus was already grown when John first met Him. Perhaps John was never told about how King Herod tried to kill Jesus.

The historical context is for what purpose in this passage?

God was introducing John to the Dragon, but CHOSE to show John how the Dragon had tried to kill Him as a young boy. The emphasis of the entire chapter is the DRAGON, and what the dragon would be doing in the last half of the week.

When Satan is kicked out of heaven he persecutes the woman which brought forth the man child.

I see this as the Dragon using the man of sin to go after the woman who fled. How do you see it?

I think I disagree about the "remnant of her seed." SHE is Israel. I picture "her seed" as the church, believers in Jesus Christ. After all, Jesus was a Jew and He began the church.

We agree on a LOT of things, which is very unusual on this forum! Good job!

iamlamad,

1. The revelation is of Jesus Christ to show his servants things which must shortly come to pass, and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

2. The main theme of the book is the second coming of Christ; Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

3. The book is not about teaching a history lesson even though it has historical facts in it. There is no scripture that shows that John was merely seeing all of history. He wrote about the things he saw. The first thing he heard was a voice that spoke with him and gave him the vision of the 7 golden candlesticks which are the 7 churches. Revelations 1:20. Jesus was in the midst of the churches. Revelation 1:12-16.
This was before verse 19 which says write the things which thou hast seen. This is in line with verse 2 that John wrote about the things he saw. So your history view is conjecture. You have to understand that the jews had the old testament scriptures day and the new testament in the church before 70 A.D. and John was at least 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem.

4. Things present are the 7 churches of Asia for they were in John's day and had the conditions that could fit different churches in every age of the church. I do not necessarily believe that these churches are symbolic of 7 church periods because all these different conditions were in every age and not just even though the similarities of this belief are more than interesting.

5. Revelation 4:1 a door was open in heaven and the first voice which John heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with him said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Immediately he was in the Spirit in Heaven. Those 24 elders represent the old and new testament saints who will reign on earth.

6. I don't believe there is a scripture or anything in history that implies the scroll was from Adam's day even though it is possible seeing that God foreknew the restitution of all things concerning Israel etc.

7. There is nothing about searching but a proclamation of, Who was worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? John cried, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. The elder responded, Weep not: behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Christ was the God man and not mere man and the elder knew how it was. As I said it is not about John giving a history lesson and the fact was he knew the scriptures about the Messiah was to be born and definitely was an eyewitness of Christ as his disciple and saw the death, burial and knew he arose on the third day. Luke 1:32-33 John would have known and the prophecies of the birth of the Messiah like Micah 5:2 and many others.

8. Revelation 12:1-5: You are bringing up a historical context in a future context because the 7th head is crowned and is future. Satan was in the time of the first six nations that persecuted Israel. 5 fell which was; Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and one was meaning at the present time in John's day which was Rome. The 7th kingdom will be the 10 horns in the future. All 7 are crowned representing Satan's rule over these evil kingdoms. The 7th is future and he will rule over it and then give his power, seat, and authority to the Antichrist. Revelation 13:2.

9. John not being born when Christ was doesn't mean anything because the point is that this was old information and John had knew about his birth and was an eyewitness to the savior and his resurrection and knew Psalm 2:9 that he would rule with a rod of iron on earth.

10. The moon under the woman's feet and a crown of twelve stars is connected directly to the jews understanding of Joseph's dream; Genesis 37: 9-11 of the 12 tribes of Israel.

11. Your view of Christ being the man child and verse 4 of the dragon's tail drawing the third heaven of the stars of heaven etc. is nothing knew. Many dispensationalists have taught this for years. However, the red dragon who is Satan is in the context of past and future for the first 6 heads were history to John writing this but the 7th is still future. The 7th head is the same as the 10th horn which is still future until the tribulation.
Revelation 17:12-13; the 10 horns give their power to the Antichrist which sets up his own kingdom.
I understand the stars written with the redemptive plan but this would only address the stars and there is nothing about the moon in that scenario and Joseph's dream does.

12. I already showed you about Jacob's trouble in the scriptures. Daniel 12:1; Michael stands up for Israel and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never since there was a nation even to that same time. Matthew 24 uses the same description and Jeremiah uses the term Jacob's trouble. This is because it is the tribes of Israel which will be persecuted before it finds refuge in the wilderness.

13. Man child has always been said to be male gender but the truth is that it is neutral gender.
Isaiah 66:7-8 is the man child in context with Zion travailing for her children in the end times. Now I understand that Isaiah switches many times from first to second coming and sometimes it can be a dual prophecy. This is why the historical context can enhance the 144,000 but does not fulfill it. Peter at the day of Pentecost saw the Spirit falling like as to be at the restitution of all things and Israel at the head of the nations but it didn't fulfill Joel's prophecy or at least not the whole prophecy because the land was not renovated etc. Since the context is future because of the 7 heads and 10 horns the man child has to be the 144,000. They are jewish and seal through the trumpet judgements and raptured to heaven.

14. The war in heaven has an implication of the past but it is in the future because it has to do with Satan not being the accuser of the brethren before the throne against the saints anymore. Also, the warning is to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea and Satan goes into great wrath, because he knows but a short time till he will lose his battle at Armageddon and be bound in the pit.

15. The woman being chased by satan after he is kicked out of heaven which brought forth the man child is in the same context and the same time frame.

16. I have already given scripture to prove that Israel is the physical nation that will be at the head of the nations forever and not the church. You would have to spiritualize every passage about physical Israel and make it spiritual Israel as some do in Romans 2. Jews and gentiles in the church age have no bearing on Israel's callings and the covenant of Abraham and David in the position of rulership.
The church will have already been raptured. Revelation 5:10; represented by the 24 elders who will reign on the earth and they are saints in white which is the righteousness of saints. Revelation 11:18 in the days of the 7th trumpet the church will be in heaven and be judged for their works. Revelation 19:11; they come out of heaven with Christ to the battle of Armageddon.

17. About the 1948 being the nation born in one day which was true in actually happening in history was not fulfillment of scripture. Ezekiel 37:11; Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say , our bones are dried and our hope is lost: we are cut of for our parts. Verse 14 he will put his spirit into them and they will live and he shall place them in their own land, etc.
If anything because history repeats itself this would be a precursor because 1948 was not united with Judah and did not become the head of the nations.

18. The truth is that in the future Israel's national light will almost be snuffed out completely and they will realize that they need a miracle from God to rescue them. The gentiles will tread under foot the last 3/5 years on the holy city and the antichrist will desecrate the temple. I have to go but this will do for now. Jerry Kelso

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad,

1. The revelation is of Jesus Christ to show his servants things which must shortly come to pass, and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

2. The main theme of the book is the second coming of Christ; Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

3. The book is not about teaching a history lesson even though it has historical facts in it. There is no scripture that shows that John was merely seeing all of history. He wrote about the things he saw. The first thing he heard was a voice that spoke with him and gave him the vision of the 7 golden candlesticks which are the 7 churches. Revelations 1:20. Jesus was in the midst of the churches. Revelation 1:12-16.
This was before verse 19 which says write the things which thou hast seen. This is in line with verse 2 that John wrote about the things he saw. So your history view is conjecture. You have to understand that the jews had the old testament scriptures day and the new testament in the church before 70 A.D. and John was at least 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem.

4. Things present are the 7 churches of Asia for they were in John's day and had the conditions that could fit different churches in every age of the church. I do not necessarily believe that these churches are symbolic of 7 church periods because all these different conditions were in every age and not just even though the similarities of this belief are more than interesting.

5. Revelation 4:1 a door was open in heaven and the first voice which John heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with him said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Immediately he was in the Spirit in Heaven. Those 24 elders represent the old and new testament saints who will reign on earth.

6. I don't believe there is a scripture or anything in history that implies the scroll was from Adam's day even though it is possible seeing that God foreknew the restitution of all things concerning Israel etc.

7. There is nothing about searching but a proclamation of, Who was worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? John cried, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. The elder responded, Weep not: behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Christ was the God man and not mere man and the elder knew how it was. As I said it is not about John giving a history lesson and the fact was he knew the scriptures about the Messiah was to be born and definitely was an eyewitness of Christ as his disciple and saw the death, burial and knew he arose on the third day. Luke 1:32-33 John would have known and the prophecies of the birth of the Messiah like Micah 5:2 and many others.

8. Revelation 12:1-5: You are bringing up a historical context in a future context because the 7th head is crowned and is future. Satan was in the time of the first six nations that persecuted Israel. 5 fell which was; Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and one was meaning at the present time in John's day which was Rome. The 7th kingdom will be the 10 horns in the future. All 7 are crowned representing Satan's rule over these evil kingdoms. The 7th is future and he will rule over it and then give his power, seat, and authority to the Antichrist. Revelation 13:2.

9. John not being born when Christ was doesn't mean anything because the point is that this was old information and John had knew about his birth and was an eyewitness to the savior and his resurrection and knew Psalm 2:9 that he would rule with a rod of iron on earth.

10. The moon under the woman's feet and a crown of twelve stars is connected directly to the jews understanding of Joseph's dream; Genesis 37: 9-11 of the 12 tribes of Israel.

11. Your view of Christ being the man child and verse 4 of the dragon's tail drawing the third heaven of the stars of heaven etc. is nothing knew. Many dispensationalists have taught this for years. However, the red dragon who is Satan is in the context of past and future for the first 6 heads were history to John writing this but the 7th is still future. The 7th head is the same as the 10th horn which is still future until the tribulation.
Revelation 17:12-13; the 10 horns give their power to the Antichrist which sets up his own kingdom.
I understand the stars written with the redemptive plan but this would only address the stars and there is nothing about the moon in that scenario and Joseph's dream does.

12. I already showed you about Jacob's trouble in the scriptures. Daniel 12:1; Michael stands up for Israel and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never since there was a nation even to that same time. Matthew 24 uses the same description and Jeremiah uses the term Jacob's trouble. This is because it is the tribes of Israel which will be persecuted before it finds refuge in the wilderness.

13. Man child has always been said to be male gender but the truth is that it is neutral gender.
Isaiah 66:7-8 is the man child in context with Zion travailing for her children in the end times. Now I understand that Isaiah switches many times from first to second coming and sometimes it can be a dual prophecy. This is why the historical context can enhance the 144,000 but does not fulfill it. Peter at the day of Pentecost saw the Spirit falling like as to be at the restitution of all things and Israel at the head of the nations but it didn't fulfill Joel's prophecy or at least not the whole prophecy because the land was not renovated etc. Since the context is future because of the 7 heads and 10 horns the man child has to be the 144,000. They are jewish and seal through the trumpet judgements and raptured to heaven.

14. The war in heaven has an implication of the past but it is in the future because it has to do with Satan not being the accuser of the brethren before the throne against the saints anymore. Also, the warning is to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea and Satan goes into great wrath, because he knows but a short time till he will lose his battle at Armageddon and be bound in the pit.

15. The woman being chased by satan after he is kicked out of heaven which brought forth the man child is in the same context and the same time frame.

16. I have already given scripture to prove that Israel is the physical nation that will be at the head of the nations forever and not the church. You would have to spiritualize every passage about physical Israel and make it spiritual Israel as some do in Romans 2. Jews and gentiles in the church age have no bearing on Israel's callings and the covenant of Abraham and David in the position of rulership.
The church will have already been raptured. Revelation 5:10; represented by the 24 elders who will reign on the earth and they are saints in white which is the righteousness of saints. Revelation 11:18 in the days of the 7th trumpet the church will be in heaven and be judged for their works. Revelation 19:11; they come out of heaven with Christ to the battle of Armageddon.

17. About the 1948 being the nation born in one day which was true in actually happening in history was not fulfillment of scripture. Ezekiel 37:11; Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say , our bones are dried and our hope is lost: we are cut of for our parts. Verse 14 he will put his spirit into them and they will live and he shall place them in their own land, etc.
If anything because history repeats itself this would be a precursor because 1948 was not united with Judah and did not become the head of the nations.

18. The truth is that in the future Israel's national light will almost be snuffed out completely and they will realize that they need a miracle from God to rescue them. The gentiles will tread under foot the last 3/5 years on the holy city and the antichrist will desecrate the temple. I have to go but this will do for now. Jerry Kelso

3. Maybe you have misunderstood. There is very little in the entire book that is history. The first five verses of chapter 12 is maybe the easiest to see as history. They speak of Jesus' birth. That is why God sent me to chapter 12 to get "history lesson" in my mind. Next, Chapter 4 & 5 are history, leading up to Jesus ascending and getting the scroll into His hands.

So your history view is conjecture.

No, it came straight from Jesus Christ, the head of the church. He spoke WORDS to me and I heard them. He told that the He CHOSE to show John what the Dragon DID when He was born; how the dragon attempted (through King Herod) to kill Him as a Child. He spoke the words "history lesson," and I understood exactly what He meant. In 95 AD anything about Jesus' birth would be history. But He sent me to chapter 12 because I could not answer even one question He has asked me about chapters 4 & 5: He knew I needed to be thinking "history" not future to correctly understand chapters 4 & 5. These are the questions:

1. "Why was I not immediately seen in the throne room when there are a dozen verses in the New Testament that show that is where I went: to be at the right hand of the Father?" I could not answer that question.

2. Why was "no man found" in the first search John watched that ended in failure? If you read ahead you will find that I was found worthy." I could not answer.

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4 when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended? I could not answer.

After two or three weeks of intense study trying to answer, suddenly He said, "Go and study chapter 12." That is how I got the anwer to these 3 questions.

(These are abbreviated questions and not word for word, but very close.)

From eternities past to eternities future, that has been one tiny space of time where the second person of the trinity was NOT in the throne room at the right hand of the Father, and that was when He was on the earth. So the answer to the first question: he was not in the throne room because He was on the earth or under the earth.

"No man was found" in the first search that ended in failure because of TIMING: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to be found worthy.

The Holy Spirit was still there simply because Jesus had not yet ascended. Then one WAS found worthy to break the seals, in the next search. Jesus had just risen from the dead to be found worthy. In chapter 5 we see the moment Jesus ascended and the SAME MOMENT the Holy Spirit was sent down.

6. I do believe. I had to bug God about WHY at the 7th trumpet the Kingdoms were transferred. What was the cause? I knew in my spirit it had to be related to the scroll and what was written inside. All we know from the book is that a MYSTERY was related to the 7th trumpet. I suspected it must be related to WHY Michael was allowed to take out Satan at the 7th trumpet. They all had to be related.

I believe the scroll is the title deed to planet earth, or maybe I should say the paperwork of Adam's 6000 year lease. It just makes sense that the reason Satan lost the kingdoms is that Adam's lease ran out. Satan's ONLY hold to this earth was that he usurped Adam's lease, and at the 7th trumpet that lease runs out. Suddenly Satan has NO LEGAL RECOURSE, so the Kingdoms are transferred and Michael takes Satan down from his heavenly places.

I found several places online where ancient Hebrew sages recorded God's 7 year plan" man would rule the earth for 6 years as in God took 6 days to create, and then GOD would rule for one year, only these years are a thousand. I personally think we are closer to the end of the 6000 that anyone realizes.

7. John cried because the search he had watched ended in a failure to find a man worthy. John WATCHED this search. When John wrote, " And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy..." I see a search taking place: a search in heaven, then on earth and then under the earth. John did not use the word "search."

One of the first things God spoke to me about this was when I was bugging Him about why He included the part about John weeping. I got stuck on that and could not let go of it. Finally He spoke and said, "TI SHOWS TIMING." I studied for weeks and could not see timing anywhere. I kept on bugging Him and then said said, "It also shows the movement of time." Again I studied and could not see any movement of time! I must have been VERY DENSE! When one search ended in failure and another search FOUND someone worthy, that shows us MOVEMENT Of time. And the fact that "no man was found" shows us TIMING: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. I see it all so clearly now.

9. John had knew about his birth Surely at this time John had read Matthew, Mark and Luke, so had second hand knowledge. I agree with you there. My point was John was not alive to BE THERE when Jesus was born. All I know is Jesus Himself, the HEAD of the church told me that He CHOSE to show John how the Dragon had tried to kill Him as a child....and that is exactly what the first five verses of chapter 12 tell us. John then WROTE what that part of the vision was. I just rehearsed on the "Stellarium" and saw that this sign of the woman with the moon at her feet, clothed in the sun and 12 stars in her crown took place in the constellation Virgo in 2 BC. I checked from 7 BC to 1 AD and ONLY the year 2 BC fits John's description. I also checked 2015 -2020 and could not find the same sign. I don't think those verses have a second meaning of something near the midpoint of the future 70th week.

11. I agree, the 7 heads and ten horns are referencing the five who were fallen in Johns time, the one present and the one future who would remain only a short time. They are also referencing the way the new kingdom will come into existence and what it will be like. Without a doubt, Iraq and Iran will be in this new empire of the Beast. However, the WOMAN, being Israel DID give birth to the Messiah and the Dragon tried to kill Him as a child. I head it from the MASTER that He CHOSE to show John how the Dragon tried to kill Him as a child - and I believe Him.

The 7th head is the same as the 10th horn I would love to see you expand on this. I believe the ten horns represent the ten Kings that throw in with the Beast in the last hour, to take Israel off the map.
For "man" (child) STrongs has this:

13.
The KJV translates Strongs G730 in the following manner: male (4x), man (3x), man child (1x), man child

How then can it be neutral?

Since the context is future because of the 7 heads and 10 horns the man child has to be the 144,000.

I disagree. The context of these 5 verses are the birth of the Christ. The 144,000 were "birthed" if you wish to use that term, 3 1/2 years previous. How then could it be in reference to them? There is nothing in scripture of the Dragon attempting to kill the 144,000. Just take it from Jesus: He CHOSE to show John how the dragon tried to kill Him as a child. These five verses would be written as a parentheses.

14. The war in heaven, in context will begin immediately with the sounding of the 7th trumpet and is SURELY related to the Mystery there.

15. The woman fleeing will surely be those living in Judea that just saw the abomination. I think 12:6 will be a second or two after the abomination. (I give them a small reaction time.)

16. I agree with your point 16.
17. I disagree. Old testament prophecies may have a part of one sentence for one millennial and another part for some later time frame. Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was one of the most dramatic fulfillment of God's promises ever seen on earth. It has never happened before and will never again.

18. I agree, the very PURPOSE of the 70th week is to get Israel to the place where they KNOW their only hope will be God. God will SHATTER their power that they are trusting in now.

Again, we agree on MUCH which is very unusual on this thread!

 

[jerry kelso]

3. Maybe you have misunderstood. There is very little in the entire book that is history. The first five verses of chapter 12 is maybe the easiest to see as history. They speak of Jesus' birth. That is why God sent me to chapter 12 to get "history lesson" in my mind. Next, Chapter 4 & 5 are history, leading up to Jesus ascending and getting the scroll into His hands.

So your history view is conjecture.

No, it came straight from Jesus Christ, the head of the church. He spoke WORDS to me and I heard them. He told that the He CHOSE to show John what the Dragon DID when He was born; how the dragon attempted (through King Herod) to kill Him as a Child. He spoke the words "history lesson," and I understood exactly what He meant. In 95 AD anything about Jesus' birth would be history. But He sent me to chapter 12 because I could not answer even one question He has asked me about chapters 4 & 5: He knew I needed to be thinking "history" not future to correctly understand chapters 4 & 5. These are the questions:

1. "Why was I not immediately seen in the throne room when there are a dozen verses in the New Testament that show that is where I went: to be at the right hand of the Father?" I could not answer that question.

2. Why was "no man found" in the first search John watched that ended in failure? If you read ahead you will find that I was found worthy." I could not answer.

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4 when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended? I could not answer.

After two or three weeks of intense study trying to answer, suddenly He said, "Go and study chapter 12." That is how I got the anwer to these 3 questions.

(These are abbreviated questions and not word for word, but very close.)

From eternities past to eternities future, that has been one tiny space of time where the second person of the trinity was NOT in the throne room at the right hand of the Father, and that was when He was on the earth. So the answer to the first question: he was not in the throne room because He was on the earth or under the earth.

"No man was found" in the first search that ended in failure because of TIMING: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to be found worthy.

The Holy Spirit was still there simply because Jesus had not yet ascended. Then one WAS found worthy to break the seals, in the next search. Jesus had just risen from the dead to be found worthy. In chapter 5 we see the moment Jesus ascended and the SAME MOMENT the Holy Spirit was sent down.

6. I do believe. I had to bug God about WHY at the 7th trumpet the Kingdoms were transferred. What was the cause? I knew in my spirit it had to be related to the scroll and what was written inside. All we know from the book is that a MYSTERY was related to the 7th trumpet. I suspected it must be related to WHY Michael was allowed to take out Satan at the 7th trumpet. They all had to be related.

I believe the scroll is the title deed to planet earth, or maybe I should say the paperwork of Adam's 6000 year lease. It just makes sense that the reason Satan lost the kingdoms is that Adam's lease ran out. Satan's ONLY hold to this earth was that he usurped Adam's lease, and at the 7th trumpet that lease runs out. Suddenly Satan has NO LEGAL RECOURSE, so the Kingdoms are transferred and Michael takes Satan down from his heavenly places.

I found several places online where ancient Hebrew sages recorded God's 7 year plan" man would rule the earth for 6 years as in God took 6 days to create, and then GOD would rule for one year, only these years are a thousand. I personally think we are closer to the end of the 6000 that anyone realizes.

7. John cried because the search he had watched ended in a failure to find a man worthy. John WATCHED this search. When John wrote, " And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy..." I see a search taking place: a search in heaven, then on earth and then under the earth. John did not use the word "search."

One of the first things God spoke to me about this was when I was bugging Him about why He included the part about John weeping. I got stuck on that and could not let go of it. Finally He spoke and said, "TI SHOWS TIMING." I studied for weeks and could not see timing anywhere. I kept on bugging Him and then said said, "It also shows the movement of time." Again I studied and could not see any movement of time! I must have been VERY DENSE! When one search ended in failure and another search FOUND someone worthy, that shows us MOVEMENT Of time. And the fact that "no man was found" shows us TIMING: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. I see it all so clearly now.

9. John had knew about his birth Surely at this time John had read Matthew, Mark and Luke, so had second hand knowledge. I agree with you there. My point was John was not alive to BE THERE when Jesus was born. All I know is Jesus Himself, the HEAD of the church told me that He CHOSE to show John how the Dragon had tried to kill Him as a child....and that is exactly what the first five verses of chapter 12 tell us. John then WROTE what that part of the vision was. I just rehearsed on the "Stellarium" and saw that this sign of the woman with the moon at her feet, clothed in the sun and 12 stars in her crown took place in the constellation Virgo in 2 BC. I checked from 7 BC to 1 AD and ONLY the year 2 BC fits John's description. I also checked 2015 -2020 and could not find the same sign. I don't think those verses have a second meaning of something near the midpoint of the future 70th week.

11. I agree, the 7 heads and ten horns are referencing the five who were fallen in Johns time, the one present and the one future who would remain only a short time. They are also referencing the way the new kingdom will come into existence and what it will be like. Without a doubt, Iraq and Iran will be in this new empire of the Beast. However, the WOMAN, being Israel DID give birth to the Messiah and the Dragon tried to kill Him as a child. I head it from the MASTER that He CHOSE to show John how the Dragon tried to kill Him as a child - and I believe Him.

The 7th head is the same as the 10th horn I would love to see you expand on this. I believe the ten horns represent the ten Kings that throw in with the Beast in the last hour, to take Israel off the map.
For "man" (child) STrongs has this:

13.
The KJV translates Strongs G730 in the following manner: male (4x), man (3x), man child (1x), man child

How then can it be neutral?

Since the context is future because of the 7 heads and 10 horns the man child has to be the 144,000.

I disagree. The context of these 5 verses are the birth of the Christ. The 144,000 were "birthed" if you wish to use that term, 3 1/2 years previous. How then could it be in reference to them? There is nothing in scripture of the Dragon attempting to kill the 144,000. Just take it from Jesus: He CHOSE to show John how the dragon tried to kill Him as a child. These five verses would be written as a parentheses.

14. The war in heaven, in context will begin immediately with the sounding of the 7th trumpet and is SURELY related to the Mystery there.

15. The woman fleeing will surely be those living in Judea that just saw the abomination. I think 12:6 will be a second or two after the abomination. (I give them a small reaction time.)

16. I agree with your point 16.
17. I disagree. Old testament prophecies may have a part of one sentence for one millennial and another part for some later time frame. Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was one of the most dramatic fulfillment of God's promises ever seen on earth. It has never happened before and will never again.

18. I agree, the very PURPOSE of the 70th week is to get Israel to the place where they KNOW their only hope will be God. God will SHATTER their power that they are trusting in now.

Again, we agree on MUCH which is very unusual on this thread!

iamilamad,

1. I thought I post to you but maybe not.

2. I understand the historical context of Revelation 12 but the time factor is in Revelation 1:19: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

3. The things which thou hast seen as the churches could not be it for they are present in John's day and this would only be assumption. The vision is something he had not seen and is within the context which concerns the churches and the risen Lord in the middle of them. The churches were not past at that time. The churches were present at the time of John and the subject at hand of their conditions.

4. Revelation 4:1 is after the subject of the churches. Because this is a prophecy and the conditions are still existent in the church age today this is why it applies to us still and why when John is raptured to heaven and he would see the things hereafter would be after the church age.
Even if one believes that the church is not raptured here or goes through the tribulation the heavenly scene in Revelation 4 and 5 would still be future from John's time because it concerns the restitution of all things. The seals have not been opened yet and definitely not in John's time.

5. The Lord showing you Revelation 12 as the historical context could be true to enhance the picture but not as fulfillment because it does not coincide with the scripture. Any revelation God gives a person has to be based or founded in some manner to be true.

6. Just because you had questions you could not answer doesn't mean that the historical context is the answer.

7. Christ being at the right hand of the father questioned is conjecture.

8. No man found doesn't mean John went on a search.

9. The Holy Spirit is omnipresence so he is everywhere at the same time. So him being on earth and not being able to be in Heaven is not true.

10. Christ was standing in the midst of the throne the whole time this was going on so your whole basis is conjecture for he can stand up and walk away from the throne, John didn't have to physically search for he was already there and the Holy Spirit was a witness.

11. Your whole historical context around this doesn't mean that the historical context cannot have a significance in enhancing the passage but it doesn't fulfill the time factor.

12. The 144,000 are the first fruits of jews and they are rapture to heaven. The remnant are the ones left behind on earth. The 144,000 are sealed in the first half and raptured in the days of the 7th trumpet which is not the rapture but is the middle of the tribulation because it is when the abomination of desolation happens Revelation 11:1. They are rapture before the blessed dead and tribulation saints martyred at the hands of the Antichrist which is right before the wrath of God.

13. The woman who is Israel births a company known as the remnant which is the remnant of her seed Revelation 12:17. The 144,000 are a company of believers who are from Israel and are protected through the trumpet judgements Revelation 9:4.

14. If the 7th trumpet were the rapture then the remnant scattered would have been saved and the Antichrist would have no reason to chase after them.

15. The mystery Of God was in the days of the 7th angel Revelation 10:7 and it was finished. The mystery of God that was finished was Satan and his angels losing the battle in heaven and more to the point was actually Satan losing his status as accuser of the brethren where he is able to accuse the brethren before God before the throne.

16. As far as the man child being male or neuter doesn't necessarily make a difference for the man child being raptured in the days of the 7th trumpet. I know what strong's says about male child and that is what the word means. However, according to the context and for the fact that men were always the main factor in jewish history such as jewish genealogy etc. Even saying the word man can represent the whole human race whether male or female.

17. As far as 1948, it was dramatic but the nation being born in one day in 1948 was not in context of the restitution of all things and Israel as the head of the nations. Isaiah 66:7-8 is all about birthing the man child right before the travailing of Zion which brings forth her children. This is the restitution of all things and not at Jesus day because God will recompense to his enemies at this time. This didn't happen in the days of the Messiah.

18. So you can be right in your own context and hermeneutically this is why there are more than one positions which can seem right but will not fulfill the actual picture completely.

19. There is no place in Revelation 12 that implies John was trying to tell the Messiah's birth, life and resurrection for any certain reason. This is all conjecture and does not fulfill the context of the future tribulation. The historical context is a historical context and John had already seen the ascended Lord. The whole context is future with the sun clothed woman and the man child and the remnant both being birthed from the woman. It concerns Satan fixing to give his power and seat and authority to the Antichrist Revelation 13:2. The subject is the Antichrist armies chasing the woman and chasing her in the wilderness and when he cannot kill the man child he resumes after the woman and she is saved in the wilderness in the cities of refuge and those scattered are the remnant of her seed denoting a birth. They are seen wondering in amazement after the 2 Witnesses are resurrected which must be by the time of the middle of the tribulation or in the last part of the tribulation because they are not seen until they are scattered in the middle of the tribulation in Revelation 12 which is in the days of the 7th trumpet.

20. So the identity of the 144,000 and the woman having to birth a redeemed company and how the 144,000 are the first fruits and reach the heavenly Mt Sion in heaven shows the 144,000 to be the man child. The most important part is that the time factor dictates the future tribulation and not the historical factor of the Messiah of which John had already seen and does not fit the future picture of the Dragon and the Woman and the 7 heads and 10 horns and the Dragon giving his power, seat, and authority to the Antichrist for his kingdom is fixing to be set up in Revelation 13.

21. Based upon the information you have given scripturally and otherwise I see no proof on your behalf that what you have stated could be right. Jerry kelso

 

[iamlamad]

iamilamad,

1. I thought I post to you but maybe not.

2. I understand the historical context of Revelation 12 but the time factor is in Revelation 1:19: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.
John SAW the great wonder in the sky and wrote. Does that not fit chapter 1? Did God say ONLY hereafter things? If God had shown John two or three things "hereafter" and finished the book with recipes on mana, He would not have disobeyed this verse.

3. The things which thou hast seen as the churches could not be it for they are present in John's day and this would only be assumption. The vision is something he had not seen and is within the context which concerns the churches and the risen Lord in the middle of them. The churches were not past at that time. The churches were present at the time of John and the subject at hand of their conditions.
Agreed.

4. Revelation 4:1 is after the subject of the churches. Because this is a prophecy and the conditions are still existent in the church age today this is why it applies to us still and why when John is raptured to heaven and he would see the things hereafter would be after the church age.
All those Jewish churches disappeared. God turned to the Gentiles. But the letters to the church certainly can apply to each reader to see if it fits them. Sorry, but the phrase was "after these things." This pertains only to the chronology of what John was seeing. He wrote what was dictated to Him about the churches, then "after that" he was called up to heaven. This in no way means "after the church age." God did say John was called up to see things hereafter. However, God did NOT say ONLY things hereafter. Again, if God had shown John two or three "hereafter" things and they spent the rest of the book on mana recipies, He would not be disobeying this verse. The truth is MUCH of what John was shown was future events. Showing John two or three history events would in no way go against this verse. You are assuming when you write, "hereafter would be after the church age." Of course John did not write that or even hint that.

Even if one believes that the church is not raptured here or goes through the tribulation the heavenly scene in Revelation 4 and 5 would still be future from John's time because it concerns the restitution of all things. The seals have not been opened yet and definitely not in John's time.

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things
Since Jesus has not at this time in John's narrative come back, then how can anyone say it is time for the restitution? I think you pulled that right out of a hat.

5. The Lord showing you Revelation 12 as the historical context could be true to enhance the picture but not as fulfillment because it does not coincide with the scripture. Any revelation God gives a person has to be based or founded in some manner to be true.
OF COURSE it was based on Scripture! Jesus was born. King Herod tried to kill him. Especially at this Christmas season this should have been foremost in your mind. In case you missed it, the ONLY time that Virgo is clothed in the sun, has the moon at her feet and a crown of 12 stars for her crown, was in 2 BC. That was the only time that three planets were added to the stars to make the 12 for her crown. It is the only time the moon was at her feet while she was clothed with the sun. I searched from 7 BC to 2 AD and found only at 2 BC did the great wonder John saw take place. I searched from 2015 to 2020 and did not find anything like that. I don't think that picture is for the future. It was exactly what the stars looked like from Jerusalem on September in 2 BC. Buy the way, DID Jesus come from Israel. Of course He did. Was He born of a virgin? Of course He was. Did the Dragon try to kill Him as a child? Of course he did, using King Herod. EVERY LAST POINT is based in scripture.

6. Just because you had questions you could not answer doesn't mean that the historical context is the answer.
It does, because that is the answer God showed me. And it is the ONLY answer for those three questions. Of course are you free to come up with some other reason why Jesus was not at the right hand of God, and why no man was found in that first search.


7. Christ being at the right hand of the father questioned is conjecture.
Not conjecture at all. It is a plain fact: He was NOT in the throne room, much less at the right hand of the father.

8. No man found doesn't mean John went on a search.
Come on! Of course John was not searching, he was WATCHING a search. And that first search he wanted ended in failure to find anyone worthy. That is the very reason John wept much.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

9. The Holy Spirit is omnipresence so he is everywhere at the same time. So him being on earth and not being able to be in Heaven is not true. Then please explain what Jesus meant:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
I think your preconceptions are showing. Your theory is not the whole story. OF COURSE He is everywhere, but not in His fullness. He WAS in heaven, but Jesus sent Him down.

10. Christ was standing in the midst of the throne the whole time this was going on so your whole basis is conjecture for he can stand up and walk away from the throne, John didn't have to physically search for he was already there and the Holy Spirit was a witness.
No, of course He was not. John would have mentioned Him in chapter 4. He was simply NOT THERE. And there is more proof He was not there, because the search for one worthy ended in failure PROVING Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. How could He be in the throne room while He was on earth? When He took on the flesh of man, He laid aside His Godly attributes like being omnipresent. He was a man. He was therefore in ONE place at a time. Of course at the same time the Holy Spirit was omnipresent. You have to believe what is written.

11. Your whole historical context around this doesn't mean that the historical context cannot have a significance in enhancing the passage but it doesn't fulfill the time factor.
From eternities past to eternities future there was only 32 years or so that Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father. You should accept this as truth, for it is TRUE. John got to see the moment Jesus ascended. It is the intent of the Author. It is what God told me. It fits the scripture to a T.

12. The 144,000 are the first fruits of jews and they are rapture to heaven. The remnant are the ones left behind on earth. The 144,000 are sealed in the first half and raptured in the days of the 7th trumpet which is not the rapture but is the middle of the tribulation because it is when the abomination of desolation happens Revelation 11:1. They are rapture before the blessed dead and tribulation saints martyred at the hands of the Antichrist which is right before the wrath of God.
The bible does not show us the exact time the 144,000 are taken to heaven. It will be close to the midpoint though, if not AT the midpoint. Sorry, you are still missing the start of God's wrath. His wrath begins at the earthquake of the 6th seal. All the trumpets are a part of His wrath.

13. The woman who is Israel births a company known as the remnant which is the remnant of her seed Revelation 12:17. The 144,000 are a company of believers who are from Israel and are protected through the trumpet judgements Revelation 9:4.
Here your preconceptions have grown a wild imagination. This is myth land and cannot be backed by scripture. What is written is "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." These are probably GENTILE believers with perhaps a few Jews that saw the Christians leave so came to believe in Jesus. We KNOW there are only a few and we Know they love Jesus. That is ALL we know. They are not in any way related to the first five verses of chapter 12. Whole denominations have come and mostly gone over a false believe in Rev. 1-5. Ever heard of the "manifest Sons?" I know for I went to one of their churches many times. By the way, "her seed" would be Israel's seed which we know from Paul was Jesus Christ. the remnant of Jesus Christ would be those LEFT BEHIND at the rapture and new believers after the rapture.

14. If the 7th trumpet were the rapture then the remnant scattered would have been saved and the Antichrist would have no reason to chase after them.
Of course the 7th trumpet is NOT the rapture. That is MYTH land. There is NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. It marks the exact MIDPOINT of the week.

15. The mystery Of God was in the days of the 7th angel Revelation 10:7 and it was finished. The mystery of God that was finished was Satan and his angels losing the battle in heaven and more to the point was actually Satan losing his status as accuser of the brethren where he is able to accuse the brethren before God before the throne.

Sorry, but the MYSTERY HAS to relate (this is absolute) to the ONE MAIN EVENT of the 7th trumpet: the RULERSHIP of the kingdoms of the world being TRANSFERRED from Satan to Jesus Christ. Your mystery does not come close. This mystery does account also for Satan being kicked down from the heavenlies.

16. As far as the man child being male or neuter doesn't necessarily make a difference for the man child being raptured in the days of the 7th trumpet. I know what strong's says about male child and that is what the word means. However, according to the context and for the fact that men were always the main factor in jewish history such as jewish genealogy etc. Even saying the word man can represent the whole human race whether male or female.
The 144,000 is NOT the manchild; never was and never will be. God did not say this. JESUS was the man-child after He was born. These five verses are about His BIRTH and how Satan tried to kill Him. Listen to the words:
"she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." We just went over that in Rev. chapter 5: John got the SEE Him as He entered the throne room after ascending. OF COURSE it is Jesus who will rule during the millennial reign. And we will reign with Him.

17. As far as 1948, it was dramatic but the nation being born in one day in 1948 was not in context of the restitution of all things and Israel as the head of the nations. Isaiah 66:7-8 is all about birthing the man child right before the travailing of Zion which brings forth her children. This is the restitution of all things and not at Jesus day because God will recompense to his enemies at this time. This didn't happen in the days of the Messiah.
1948 was Old Testament prophecies of God bringing them back into their land again being fulfilled. It was a great miracle. Israel will not be the head of all nations until Jesus is reigning from there. I rather think Isaiah 66 is about the Nation of Israel being born in one day.

18. So you can be right in your own context and hermeneutically this is why there are more than one positions which can seem right but will not fulfill the actual picture completely.
There may be a second meaning of Rev. 1-5. If there is, I don't know it. The PRIMARY meaning is the birth of Christ.

19. There is no place in Revelation 12 that implies John was trying to tell the Messiah's birth, life and resurrection for any certain reason. Wrong. Verses 1 -5 are certainly about the Messiah's birth. If you can't see it, it is because of thick preconceived glasses. It relates to the rest of chapter 12 because Chapter 12 is all about God introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the dragon will do after the abomination. As Jesus said, "I CHOSE to show John how the Dragon tried to kill me as a child." It fits because it is about the Dragon, and the CHAPTER is about the dragon. You can deny it all you want, it will still be truth. You are trying to make these 5 verses far more complicated then they are. It is simply English. It is not college level.

This is all conjecture and does not fulfill the context of the future tribulation.
These first five verses were NOT MEANT to "fulfill the context." It is not conjecture, it is what the verses actually say. preconceptions are blinding you to the intent of the Author.

The historical context is a historical context and John had already seen the ascended Lord. The whole context is future with the sun clothed woman and the man child and the remnant both being birthed from the woman. It concerns Satan fixing to give his power and seat and authority to the Antichrist Revelation 13:2.
John certainly saw the (just) ascended Lord in chapter 5. THis is all myth and conjecture, and does NOT fit the simply words of the text. It was Satan trying to murder Jesus as a child.

The subject is the Antichrist armies chasing the woman and chasing her in the wilderness and when he cannot kill the man child he resumes after the woman and she is saved in the wilderness in the cities of refuge and those scattered are the remnant of her seed denoting a birth.
That is the subject at the END of the chapter, not at the beginning. No, JESUS was the seed and believers LEFT BEHIND will be the remnant of her seed whom the Dragon will go after.

They are seen wondering in amazement after the 2 Witnesses are resurrected which must be by the time of the middle of the tribulation or in the last part of the tribulation because they are not seen until they are scattered in the middle of the tribulation in Revelation 12 which is in the days of the 7th trumpet.

What? How long do you propose the 7th trumpet sounds? In chapter 12 the 7th trumpet has ENDED its sounding. You are not making a lot of sense here. Who is "they?" The Two witnesses?" They are certainly not scattered! But the Jews will certainly be scattered. They will be running for their life.

20. So the identity of the 144,000 and the woman having to birth a redeemed company and how the 144,000 are the first fruits and reach the heavenly Mt Sion in heaven shows the 144,000 to be the man child.
Complete MYTH! This is imagination running wild. The 144,000 are FIRSTFRUITS. the Manchild was JESUS. King Herod will not be around to go after the 144,000.

The most important part is that the time factor dictates the future tribulation and not the historical factor of the Messiah of which John had already seen and does not fit the future picture of the Dragon and the Woman and the 7 heads and 10 horns and the Dragon giving his power, seat, and authority to the Antichrist for his kingdom is fixing to be set up in Revelation 13.
God chose to introduce John to the Dragon first, before the two Beasts, to show that the Dragon will be BEHIND everything the two beasts do. It makes sense. It also makes sense that Jesus would show how the dragon tried to kill Him as a child. That part does not have to fit anything else but the Dragon mentioned 32 times in this chapter.

21. Based upon the information you have given scripturally and otherwise I see no proof on your behalf that what you have stated could be right. Jerry kelso

When a fellow believer tells you that He heard from God, and then tells you what He heard God say, if it fits the scriptures mentioned and does not go against other scripture, it would behoove one to BELIEVE IT. Of course you have the right to believe or not believe. I can tell you this, preconceived glasses have prevented millions from seeing truth in God's word. When we get to heaven, you will find God DID speak and what I wrote is truth.

 

[jerry kelso]

When a fellow believer tells you that He heard from God, and then tells you what He heard God say, if it fits the scriptures mentioned and does not go against other scripture, it would behoove one to BELIEVE IT. Of course you have the right to believe or not believe. I can tell you this, preconceived glasses have prevented millions from seeing truth in God's word. When we get to heaven, you will find God DID speak and what I wrote is truth.

iamlamad,


1. I am not doubting God conveying the scenario of the birth of Christ being the man child. Paul was given the revelations in Arabia about law and grace and the mystery of Christ, etc. and other things that he didn't converse with the other apostles whether things they knew or not.

2. As far as being a thus saith the Lord that it is the only true interpretation I don't know that I can with you on that. Many christians say the Lord said thus and thus in interpreting scripture and that might be true but there are others who say the same thing as you and have an opposing idea. Did you both hear from God?

3. Who the man child is I don't believe will make or break the prophecy and it is not going to effect our salvation. So I don't think when we get to heaven it will matter whether God spoke to you or I as having the truth.

4. I heard a guy goes as far as say that God told him the rapture would be a post rapture or he would die or something to that effect.

5. I do not believe in wearing preconceived glasses but I do believe in rightly dividing the word. Prophecy can be very subjective so you are free to believe what you believe.

6. There is a difference in saying something true in knowledge when it should be spoken in wisdom. Case in point is that one time a preacher preached about David and the talents of men wielded by the sling and the horn of oil of anointing. The talents of men can fail and that is true and the horn of oil of anointing is needing to break yokes etc. and that is true. At the very end he gave an altar call to christians. Now he said nothing wrong and it was all scriptural. However, the message was couched in such a way to the unsaved and yet the altar call was given to the saved. This was indicative of the denomination for it happens all the time. Because this is done all the time and christian people have to rededicate their life every week. The point was that if this is done all the time it teaches the church they are backslidden and they live in defeat because they can't help but sin etc. I am not against if there is a christian that needs to rededicate their life because they are truly backslidden but in the overall picture it is not advantageous if it teaches a christian to stay in that backslidden state all the time. He didn't say anything wrong but it was not wise because it brought on and caused the people to stay in a backslidden way and an inconsistent life for the Lord.

7. You are free to believe what you feel is right but listen in debate and rebuttal you haven't rebutted the scriptures I gave in my position. Anyone can be right in their own context. As I say Revelation 12 has 3 or 4 different positions and all of them can be right pretty much in their own context. This is why both parties believe they are right. This is why there is what's called a proper rebuttal called exegesis. Jerry kelso

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad,


1. I am not doubting God conveying the scenario of the birth of Christ being the man child. Paul was given the revelations in Arabia about law and grace and the mystery of Christ, etc. and other things that he didn't converse with the other apostles whether things they knew or not.

2. As far as being a thus saith the Lord that it is the only true interpretation I don't know that I can with you on that. Many christians say the Lord said thus and thus in interpreting scripture and that might be true but there are others who say the same thing as you and have an opposing idea. Did you both hear from God?

3. Who the man child is I don't believe will make or break the prophecy and it is not going to effect our salvation. So I don't think when we get to heaven it will matter whether God spoke to you or I as having the truth.

4. I heard a guy goes as far as say that God told him the rapture would be a post rapture or he would die or something to that effect.

5. I do not believe in wearing preconceived glasses but I do believe in rightly dividing the word. Prophecy can be very subjective so you are free to believe what you believe.

6. There is a difference in saying something true in knowledge when it should be spoken in wisdom. Case in point is that one time a preacher preached about David and the talents of men wielded by the sling and the horn of oil of anointing. The talents of men can fail and that is true and the horn of oil of anointing is needing to break yokes etc. and that is true. At the very end he gave an altar call to christians. Now he said nothing wrong and it was all scriptural. However, the message was couched in such a way to the unsaved and yet the altar call was given to the saved. This was indicative of the denomination for it happens all the time. Because this is done all the time and christian people have to rededicate their life every week. The point was that if this is done all the time it teaches the church they are backslidden and they live in defeat because they can't help but sin etc. I am not against if there is a christian that needs to rededicate their life because they are truly backslidden but in the overall picture it is not advantageous if it teaches a christian to stay in that backslidden state all the time. He didn't say anything wrong but it was not wise because it brought on and caused the people to stay in a backslidden way and an inconsistent life for the Lord.

7. You are free to believe what you feel is right but listen in debate and rebuttal you haven't rebutted the scriptures I gave in my position. Anyone can be right in their own context. As I say Revelation 12 has 3 or 4 different positions and all of them can be right pretty much in their own context. This is why both parties believe they are right. This is why there is what's called a proper rebuttal called exegesis. Jerry kelso

I think we can be SURE that the Holy Spirit will not teach different people conflicting truths. If two people said, "I heard from the Lord" and then tell conflicting doctrine, we can be sure that either one or both THOUGHT they heard from God but really did not. This is why we as believers need to be well grounded in the Word of God. When false doctrine comes along, we can immediately spot it. We also need the Holy Spirit and a close relationship with Him, because He too will alert us to something false.

You have theories about Rev. 12. When I read the scriptures, I can't see even a HINT of your theories. How can one rebut something that has not scriptural backing? It is just a theory. A good theory should at least have scripture that comes close to saying what someone teaches others that it says.

I hear you on the churches that have people getting resaved every week. It comes from wrong thinking, wrong doctrine and wrong teaching. "Been there and done that."

On the man child, I agree. it is not serious. Just a point: if a 5th grader read those first 5 verses, and then you asked them about the manchild, what would they say?

It is difficult to remove preconceived glasses. It is not impossible. I grew up hearing sermons on Revelation. I had not studied it myself. When the Holy Spirit gently pushed me into studying it (heels dragging) I determined right off to know NOTHING. I came telling the Holy Spirit if I was to know ANYTHING about the book, He would have to teach me. I probably read it over a hundred times, without making ANY effort to understand anything. In fact I tried hard NOT to understand anything. I just deposited it into my spirit man. I purposely stayed away from human reasoning until finally He began to teach me. I wished He had taught the the whole book! Well, perhaps there is still time!

 

[jerry kelso]

I think we can be SURE that the Holy Spirit will not teach different people conflicting truths. If two people said, "I heard from the Lord" and then tell conflicting doctrine, we can be sure that either one or both THOUGHT they heard from God but really did not. This is why we as believers need to be well grounded in the Word of God. When false doctrine comes along, we can immediately spot it. We also need the Holy Spirit and a close relationship with Him, because He too will alert us to something false.

You have theories about Rev. 12. When I read the scriptures, I can't see even a HINT of your theories. How can one rebut something that has not scriptural backing? It is just a theory. A good theory should at least have scripture that comes close to saying what someone teaches others that it says.

I hear you on the churches that have people getting resaved every week. It comes from wrong thinking, wrong doctrine and wrong teaching. "Been there and done that."

On the man child, I agree. it is not serious. Just a point: if a 5th grader read those first 5 verses, and then you asked them about the manchild, what would they say?

It is difficult to remove preconceived glasses. It is not impossible. I grew up hearing sermons on Revelation. I had not studied it myself. When the Holy Spirit gently pushed me into studying it (heels dragging) I determined right off to know NOTHING. I came telling the Holy Spirit if I was to know ANYTHING about the book, He would have to teach me. I probably read it over a hundred times, without making ANY effort to understand anything. In fact I tried hard NOT to understand anything. I just deposited it into my spirit man. I purposely stayed away from human reasoning until finally He began to teach me. I wished He had taught the the whole book! Well, perhaps there is still time!

iamlamad,

1. I believe that God has helped me understand how to rightly divide the word by context by I do not believe I am an island unto myself and I am very careful to say God spoke something to me and everyone who doesn't believe this way is in error thus saith God.
We all have to do our best to rightly divide the word and we will all be judged by the Lord for everything we say and believe.

2. There have been many who had a humble spirit before the Lord and asked to show something and for whatever reason was not exactly right about everything.

3. I have gone out of my way to always study the word of God because I believe that is what we are exhorted to do and when I thought I knew my doctrine and was well meaning I knew nothing much but when I learned from others a few things about what the redemptive plan was about across the board and the purpose and destiny of man by God it went from reading 20 minutes and falling asleep and not understanding to reading volumes at a time and comprehending the big picture.

4. I do not judge your relationship with Christ or whether or not you hear from God but we have to be pliable to God in our relationships and how we interpret scripture.

5. I am strong in how I believe and am quite sure but I am not an island. Now you are free to believe that you have the truth and that it was from God according to the context and that is your prerogative and I have the right to disagree. Believe me I listen to everything everyone says whether I believe it or not and I still study it out to see if it is true just like the bereans.

6. There are absolutes that are clear in scripture and we can be sure of such as the death and resurrection of Christ being the gospel for salvation.

7. Understanding Revelation will not necessarily bother one's salvation and at the same time it can reveal how a person believes doctrinally in the long run.

8. I am not a novice either and I base what I say on scripture just like you say you do so that is a mute point.

9. Let me ask you something which will seem off the wall but when Paul said I die daily what do you think he meant? 1 Corinthians 15. Also, if you don't receive when having faith do you believe you didn't have enough faith or faith failed?

10. I can prove my context just like yours with scripture but where yours falls is the time factor and it is not logical for John to mention the birth, life and ascension of Christ in that context for there is no implication that is what he was saying or meant.

11. I do not mind the historical context to enhance the passage of the great confrontation as a furtherance of the great confrontation of the showdown of the day of the Lord but it really doesn't fit the prophecy in this passage and time and why Satan get more mad at the woman. The man child shows the way that the 144,000 jews to get to heaven. The man child destroys the immediate context of what is happening in the future at that moment.

12. Now if you can rebut why the man child cannot be the 144,000 I am all ears. I am ever all ears to your whole position of eschatologically. Your turn. Jerry kelso

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad,

1. I believe that God has helped me understand how to rightly divide the word by context by I do not believe I am an island unto myself and I am very careful to say God spoke something to me and everyone who doesn't believe this way is in error thus saith God.
We all have to do our best to rightly divide the word and we will all be judged by the Lord for everything we say and believe.

2. There have been many who had a humble spirit before the Lord and asked to show something and for whatever reason was not exactly right about everything.

3. I have gone out of my way to always study the word of God because I believe that is what we are exhorted to do and when I thought I knew my doctrine and was well meaning I knew nothing much but when I learned from others a few things about what the redemptive plan was about across the board and the purpose and destiny of man by God it went from reading 20 minutes and falling asleep and not understanding to reading volumes at a time and comprehending the big picture.

4. I do not judge your relationship with Christ or whether or not you hear from God but we have to be pliable to God in our relationships and how we interpret scripture.

5. I am strong in how I believe and am quite sure but I am not an island. Now you are free to believe that you have the truth and that it was from God according to the context and that is your prerogative and I have the right to disagree. Believe me I listen to everything everyone says whether I believe it or not and I still study it out to see if it is true just like the bereans.

6. There are absolutes that are clear in scripture and we can be sure of such as the death and resurrection of Christ being the gospel for salvation.

7. Understanding Revelation will not necessarily bother one's salvation and at the same time it can reveal how a person believes doctrinally in the long run.

8. I am not a novice either and I base what I say on scripture just like you say you do so that is a mute point.

9. Let me ask you something which will seem off the wall but when Paul said I die daily what do you think he meant? 1 Corinthians 15. Also, if you don't receive when having faith do you believe you didn't have enough faith or faith failed?

10. I can prove my context just like yours with scripture but where yours falls is the time factor and it is not logical for John to mention the birth, life and ascension of Christ in that context for there is no implication that is what he was saying or meant.

11. I do not mind the historical context to enhance the passage of the great confrontation as a furtherance of the great confrontation of the showdown of the day of the Lord but it really doesn't fit the prophecy in this passage and time and why Satan get more mad at the woman. The man child shows the way that the 144,000 jews to get to heaven. The man child destroys the immediate context of what is happening in the future at that moment.

12. Now if you can rebut why the man child cannot be the 144,000 I am all ears. I am ever all ears to your whole position of eschatologically. Your turn. Jerry kelso

No no! The bible makes no claim that the 144,000 is the man child, or vice versa. That is you claiming it. (Just like so many here say that the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. Just like many here saying a blood moon and a darkened moon are the same - and asking others to prove they are not the same.) The burden of proof is for you to prove the two are the same with scripture. As I see it there are not even remotely connected.

Did you ever hear of a parentheses, where something not exactly related can be inserted? John used parentheses but did not have parentheses marks to SHOW US where they are. Rev. 1-5 is a parenthesis. It is in NO WAY a part of John's chronology. It is not suppose to fit there. One could finish chapter 11 and start with 12:6 and it would make perfect sense, since 12/6 will follow after the 7th trumpet by only a few seconds.

Now, since you said you can prove this with scripture, by all means show us how you can make the 144,000 be the Manchild. Of course you will have to show us how VIRGO in the sky related, and how the Dragon tried to murder the Manchild the moment he was born. My interpretation comes from the words in their simplest meaning. I believe it means exact what it says in the simplest way. It is talking about the birth of Christ in those simple words. Your theory is trying to make those simple words say something else, as if one had to really dig to find the real meaning. This book was and is a revealing, not a hiding.

Paul probably quit being an apostle to the Gentiles a few times every day. He had his own will, but every day laid it aside to follow God's will.

 

[dfw69]

iamlamad,

1. I believe that God has helped me understand how to rightly divide the word by context by I do not believe I am an island unto myself and I am very careful to say God spoke something to me and everyone who doesn't believe this way is in error thus saith God.
We all have to do our best to rightly divide the word and we will all be judged by the Lord for everything we say and believe.

2. There have been many who had a humble spirit before the Lord and asked to show something and for whatever reason was not exactly right about everything.

3. I have gone out of my way to always study the word of God because I believe that is what we are exhorted to do and when I thought I knew my doctrine and was well meaning I knew nothing much but when I learned from others a few things about what the redemptive plan was about across the board and the purpose and destiny of man by God it went from reading 20 minutes and falling asleep and not understanding to reading volumes at a time and comprehending the big picture.

4. I do not judge your relationship with Christ or whether or not you hear from God but we have to be pliable to God in our relationships and how we interpret scripture.

5. I am strong in how I believe and am quite sure but I am not an island. Now you are free to believe that you have the truth and that it was from God according to the context and that is your prerogative and I have the right to disagree. Believe me I listen to everything everyone says whether I believe it or not and I still study it out to see if it is true just like the bereans.

6. There are absolutes that are clear in scripture and we can be sure of such as the death and resurrection of Christ being the gospel for salvation.

7. Understanding Revelation will not necessarily bother one's salvation and at the same time it can reveal how a person believes doctrinally in the long run.

8. I am not a novice either and I base what I say on scripture just like you say you do so that is a mute point.

9. Let me ask you something which will seem off the wall but when Paul said I die daily what do you think he meant? 1 Corinthians 15. Also, if you don't receive when having faith do you believe you didn't have enough faith or faith failed?

10. I can prove my context just like yours with scripture but where yours falls is the time factor and it is not logical for John to mention the birth, life and ascension of Christ in that context for there is no implication that is what he was saying or meant.

11. I do not mind the historical context to enhance the passage of the great confrontation as a furtherance of the great confrontation of the showdown of the day of the Lord but it really doesn't fit the prophecy in this passage and time and why Satan get more mad at the woman. The man child shows the way that the 144,000 jews to get to heaven. The man child destroys the immediate context of what is happening in the future at that moment.

12. Now if you can rebut why the man child cannot be the 144,000 I am all ears. I am ever all ears to your whole position of eschatologically. Your turn. Jerry kelso

Manchild is the 144000?...yes I agree

 

[jerry kelso]

Manchild is the 144000?...yes I agree

dfw69, Thanks but the shame is for one to give a perception that it has no scriptural backup because God told them it was something else when there is more than enough scriptures to show at least the possibility. God bless. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

No no! The bible makes no claim that the 144,000 is the man child, or vice versa. That is you claiming it. (Just like so many here say that the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. Just like many here saying a blood moon and a darkened moon are the same - and asking others to prove they are not the same.) The burden of proof is for you to prove the two are the same with scripture. As I see it there are not even remotely connected.

Did you ever hear of a parentheses, where something not exactly related can be inserted? John used parentheses but did not have parentheses marks to SHOW US where they are. Rev. 1-5 is a parenthesis. It is in NO WAY a part of John's chronology. It is not suppose to fit there. One could finish chapter 11 and start with 12:6 and it would make perfect sense, since 12/6 will follow after the 7th trumpet by only a few seconds.

Now, since you said you can prove this with scripture, by all means show us how you can make the 144,000 be the Manchild. Of course you will have to show us how VIRGO in the sky related, and how the Dragon tried to murder the Manchild the moment he was born. My interpretation comes from the words in their simplest meaning. I believe it means exact what it says in the simplest way. It is talking about the birth of Christ in those simple words. Your theory is trying to make those simple words say something else, as if one had to really dig to find the real meaning. This book was and is a revealing, not a hiding.

Paul probably quit being an apostle to the Gentiles a few times every day. He had his own will, but every day laid it aside to follow God's will.

iamlamad,

1. Why is it my burden to prove Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture? You haven't shown what you mean by the rapture unless you believe in a post tribulation rapture. Is this what you believe? The second coming is not a rapture and the one left is saved and the one taken will be the one killed in the battle of Armageddon. The comparison of Noah's day was the ones who were lost because none were left except Noah and his family in the ark. Did God tell you that too?

2. The 2 Witnesses are resurrected by themselves and the remnant are witnesses so different companies are resurrected at the different times. The 144,000 are raptured in the middle of the tribulation in the days of the 7th trumpet which happen before the 7 vials which is the wrath of God on the beast kingdom.

3. I don't agree with your definition of parentheses. There are parenthetical passages that interrupt the main thought because everything works in and around the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and the 7 vials. The 7 seals, 7 trumpets and the 7 vials are opened consecutively.
An example of a parenthetical is after the 6 seals which were consecutive and before the 7th seal of silence in heaven. Revelation 7 gives the account of the sealing of the 144,000 jews and the great multitude. The 144,000 sealing happens at that time and the great multitude covers the whole tribulation.
Your chiasm type of theology leaves open to interpret of perception and misunderstandings about the 7th trumpet and what is spoken and is actually happening and correct context.

4. I have already showed the time factor and the reason. All you have stated is that you don't agree with it.

5. I understand the redemptive story by Bullinger according to the stars and I don't have no problem with that. Satan did try to kill the child and Joseph and Mary fleed to Egypt. This is nothing knew and about what happened when Jesus was born. As far as scripture that the stars in the sky mention virgo etc. that I don't know but this doesn't dismiss the fact of the 144,000 being the man child or at least the possibility according to scripture.

6. The book is an unveiling of the revelation of Jesus Christ and this is true but it is connected to the things which must shortly come to pass which is the main theme of the book which is the second advent which is connected with the future tribulation. The 144,000 fits all requirements of the passage including the time factor and the ascension does not for it had already happened.

7. Your answer about Paul and him dying daily is to general and not to the context. Try one more time and try to be more specific to the context because if one doesn't understand context then they will be hard pressed to be believable as knowing the truth. Thanks Jerry kelso

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad,

1. Why is it my burden to prove Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture? You haven't shown what you mean by the rapture unless you believe in a post tribulation rapture. Is this what you believe? The second coming is not a rapture and the one left is saved and the one taken will be the one killed in the battle of Armageddon. The comparison of Noah's day was the ones who were lost because none were left except Noah and his family in the ark. Did God tell you that too?
I gave Matthew 24 as an example of someone choosing two UNrelated scriptures and declaring they are the same and saying "prove they are NOT the same." "The rapture" is the common terminology for the resurrection/rapture shown in 1 thes. 4. Jesus told us why He mentioned Noah by the preposition, "for:" it was to show the suddenness of the disaster: they got on on the day it began to rain with NO IDEA it would be their last day. As Jesus said, they were just living NORMAL lives, eating, drinking, marrying. Same with Lot: SUDDEN. And that will be His coming, both for the rapture pretrib and for the battle of Armageddon posttrib.

2. The 2 Witnesses are resurrected by themselves and the remnant are witnesses so different companies are resurrected at the different times. The 144,000 are raptured in the middle of the tribulation in the days of the 7th trumpet which happen before the 7 vials which is the wrath of God on the beast kingdom.
So us any scripture showing us that the "remnant" are witnesses. We could guess they would be, but it is not shown.

3. I don't agree with your definition of parentheses. There are parenthetical passages that interrupt the main thought because everything works in and around the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and the 7 vials. The 7 seals, 7 trumpets and the 7 vials are opened consecutively.
An example of a parenthetical is after the 6 seals which were consecutive and before the 7th seal of silence in heaven. Revelation 7 gives the account of the sealing of the 144,000 jews and the great multitude. The 144,000 sealing happens at that time and the great multitude covers the whole tribulation.
I called that time, the break between the 6th and 7th seal, an "intermission" in my book. If you wish to call it an parentheses, that is fine. It is certainly a BREAK from the main story line of the seals. The Break between the 6th and 7th trumpets I called the "midpoint intermission." Imagine a long play with an intermission in the middle. When the curtain closes, those behind the curtain begin to "rearrange the set" so the setting will FIT the next act. That is exactly what John does, because two things MUST happen (the setting) before the 7th seal begins the 70th week. 1: the rapture MUST take place as seen in the great crowd in heaven. 2: The 144,000 must be sealed for their protection. However, Rev 12: 1-5 is very much the same kind of a break, and is also a "parenthetical passage." You just don't know it yet. So also is 11:4-13 where John takes us down a rabbit trail or side journey of the last half of the week with the two witnesses only. The entire 1260 days of their witnessing does NOT all take place before the 7th trumpet. It only appears that way until you recognize those verses as a parentheses.

You are mistaken about the great crowd: they are the just raptured church. John has not yet even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the days of GT. This is not the "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of that John is telling us. It simply cannot be, for John's timing. Oh, if you wish to rearrange Revelation as many do you could try and MAKE IT FIT, but just leave it alone and it tells us a different story. For all those beheaded in 2015, was it "great tribulation" for THEM? How could it have been any greater? They could not be beheaded twice! John is only telling us that at the time of the rapture it WILL BE great tribulation around the world, as people around the world will be being martyred because they love Jesus and/or because they deny Islam. But it will NOT be the GT that Jesus spoke of greater than any other. That will not start until after the midpoint of the week. John has not yet started the week in his narrative at this time.

Your chiasm type of theology leaves open to interpret of perception and misunderstandings about the 7th trumpet and what is spoken and is actually happening and correct context.
Not MY chiasm: I don't believe in that nonsense. John's narrative is VERY orderly in time. He is very watchful in chronology. But many miss his parenthetical passages so think they need to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory. They are mistaken. The great crowd is shown in Rev. 7 because the rapture just took place at the 6th seal (a moment before the earthquake).

4. I have already showed the time factor and the reason. All you have stated is that you don't agree with it.
Again, it is written as it is written and is perfect in chronology. If you don't think so, the burden of proof falls on you to prove that John mixed up his chronology.
Axiom on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

5. I understand the redemptive story by Bullinger according to the stars and I don't have no problem with that. Satan did try to kill the child and Joseph and Mary fleed to Egypt. This is nothing knew and about what happened when Jesus was born. As far as scripture that the stars in the sky mention virgo etc. that I don't know but this doesn't dismiss the fact of the 144,000 being the man child or at least the possibility according to scripture.
Ah! At least you admit it is a possibility. That is far different than claiming it as truth.

6. The book is an unveiling of the revelation of Jesus Christ and this is true but it is connected to the things which must shortly come to pass which is the main theme of the book which is the second advent which is connected with the future tribulation. The 144,000 fits all requirements of the passage including the time factor and the ascension does not for it had already happened.
The bible makes NO CONNECTION between the two. I am only saying: neither should you unless you state it as only a possibility.

7. Your answer about Paul and him dying daily is to general and not to the context. Try one more time and try to be more specific to the context because if one doesn't understand context then they will be hard pressed to be believable as knowing the truth. Thanks Jerry kelso

I guess what you are hinting at is that Paul was ALWAYS in danger of death by the Jews that hated him and the Gentiles that got stirred up by the Jews. I am convinced he DID die when He was stoned. That seems to be the context, as he just had said, "why stand we in jeopardy every hour?" I did not look that verse up. I was not in context. Thanks for catching that. I was thinking more of these verses:

2 Cor. 4
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

 

[2KnowHim]

The Seven things or Trumpets sounded on The Cross
By our Lord


1. Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
2. Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
3. Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Joh 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
4. Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
5. Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
6. Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
7. Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

As with the two on either side of The Cross with Him,
I believe these are very symbolic for the one nature crucified and the other
Raised with Him.

I have seen glimpses of the sufferings and the Glory that was taking place in Him
While on the Cross, and it has helped me to understand more of what is going on within me, I hope others have seen this too.

These Seven sayings, I believe are also the Seven Trumpets of The Revelation of Jesus Christ our Lord. I believe that these Trumpets give great detailed accounts of His Work
And what or who was being judged and all the things the first Adam brought into this world and what was being raised to Glory for us.

First, in our Lord, and now, as His Life unfolds within us.

What a Pattern, of The Last Adam, Taking upon Himself, The First Adam, This is All Mankind, (on The Cross).

The trumpets in scripture is symbolic of the voice of God, or the call to worship, or an action that is about to take place.

And are also taking place within His people today, individually and corporately.
The Unveiling of His Son, and His work within us.

Can you see Adam (Us) drawn into Him, and nailed to His Cross, Crucified with Christ, and then Live, Really Live in God?
How Glorious is our God, How wonderful is our Redemption, and what a price He paid for All Mankind.
And will He not get what He paid for?
HE WILL!!!!

 

[jerry kelso]

I guess what you are hinting at is that Paul was ALWAYS in danger of death by the Jews that hated him and the Gentiles that got stirred up by the Jews. I am convinced he DID die when He was stoned. That seems to be the context, as he just had said, "why stand we in jeopardy every hour?" I did not look that verse up. I was not in context. Thanks for catching that. I was thinking more of these verses:

2 Cor. 4
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

iamlamad,

1. Thanks for your patience. One more basic question is about the context of resurrection in the context of his witness of the possibility of being killed for and becoming a martyr; of which he eventually became. Is this resurrection, physical or spiritual and how do you prove the context and harmonize with other scriptures of the point in detail? Thanks Jerry kelso

 

[iamlamad]

The Seven things or Trumpets sounded on The Cross
By our Lord


1. Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
2. Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
3. Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Joh 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
4. Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
5. Joh 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
6. Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
7. Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

As with the two on either side of The Cross with Him,
I believe these are very symbolic for the one nature crucified and the other
Raised with Him.

I have seen glimpses of the sufferings and the Glory that was taking place in Him
While on the Cross, and it has helped me to understand more of what is going on within me, I hope others have seen this too.

These Seven sayings, I believe are also the Seven Trumpets of The Revelation of Jesus Christ our Lord. I believe that these Trumpets give great detailed accounts of His Work
And what or who was being judged and all the things the first Adam brought into this world and what was being raised to Glory for us.

First, in our Lord, and now, as His Life unfolds within us.

What a Pattern, of The Last Adam, Taking upon Himself, The First Adam, This is All Mankind, (on The Cross).

The trumpets in scripture is symbolic of the voice of God, or the call to worship, or an action that is about to take place.

And are also taking place within His people today, individually and corporately.
The Unveiling of His Son, and His work within us.

Can you see Adam (Us) drawn into Him, and nailed to His Cross, Crucified with Christ, and then Live, Really Live in God?
How Glorious is our God, How wonderful is our Redemption, and what a price He paid for All Mankind.
And will He not get what He paid for?
HE WILL!!!!

Sorry, but I think you have a very wild imagination. The Trumpets of Revelation are JUDGMENT upon a world that refuses to repent. Why not just read each trumpet in Revelation and then believe what John said about them? Then, no need for imagination.

By the way, if anything in Revelation makes good sense in its literal sense, DON'T LOOK for anything symbolic, or you will end up miles from the intended meaning.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad,

1. Thanks for your patience. One more basic question is about the context of resurrection in the context of his witness of the possibility of being killed for and becoming a martyr; of which he eventually became. Is this resurrection, physical or spiritual and how do you prove the context and harmonize with other scriptures of the point in detail? Thanks Jerry kelso

Are you asking about 1 Cor. 15? There can be no question at all that in 1 Cor. 15 he is writing of the resurrection of the physically dead - as in heart stopped beating and Spirit left the body. Perhaps you are speaking of a different epistle of Paul's.