Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[jerry kelso]

You are advocating a plan of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

All who will be saved after the Cross, will become part of the Church.
The New Covenant Church was announced by Jeremiah in the Old Testament at Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It is found spoken of by Christ in His own words.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.


Luk_23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

This New Covenant is "now" in effect.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


There is now no other plan of Salvation.
Paul warned that we are to preach no other plan.


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Church is not a "parenthesis" in God's Plan, as is taught by some Dispensationalists.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the Plan.
.

baberean2,

1. Just what I thought, you believe your own view but cannot defeat the true context of the scriptures that I gave that debunked what you said about the tribulation going into the New Heaven and the New Earth. The 1000 years definition you use is wrong and is not symbolic of the church alone but has Israel at the head of the nations as well. I showed you proof of sinners in the kingdom that will be judged immediately by Christ and the rule of the rod of iron. I showed you that physical Israel and physical Judah are the two sticks that have to be united and that spiritual Israel from the church age of gentiles are not the same and have never been promised the head of the nations. The similarity they do have is that they will be born again believers because of Calvary.


2. I have proved that I believe that the nation of Israel physically will be saved by the new covenant in the future for it is plainly true that the nation of Israel is not in covenant with God. I have proved that the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants as particular parts of land that are promised to Earthly Israel that are saved under the new covenant and the kingdom as well belong to the physical Earthly Israel and they will inherit it because it is conditioned by obedience and is eternal when they obey as a nation. Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13 go together. I have given plenty of plain scriptures that physical earthly Israel will come back to God and fulfill their covenants and all you can do is spiritualize scripture, thwart literal passages and not distinguishing the differences between the millennial kingdom and the new heaven and the new earth in nature.


3. I said that the new covenant was given at Calvary and you keep saying that I don't believe that. That is an untruth.

4. I said the new covenant was for the jew and gentile in one body alike called the body of Christ.
I said the new covenant was not given to the earthly physical jewish nation in Christ ministry and Christ pronounced judgement on them but it would not be forever because the church of the jew and gentile in one body will make them jealous and they will eventually come back to God and become the head of the nations. I have already proved that the church is not a parenthesis because Israel rejected Christ and the Messiah had to die for the whole world.

5. In conclusion, we agree that the new covenant was given at Calvary for jew and gentile in one body alike.
We disagree that the nation of Israel will be at the head of the nations over the earth and that they are eternal in nature and that it will not be the heavenly Jerusalem for there will be nations in the earth and kings in the earth.

6. I have proved that physical Israel will be under the new covenant in the future and that it will not violate anything about the new covenant, but is a difference in rulership position. The church will have rulership positions in the earthly kingdom and if you have a higher position or just different position of rulership than I or any other christian doesn't have nothing to do with anything except your stewardship.
Your whole perception is that the church is to replace Israel in their calling at the head of the nations because Israel had their chance and they have no other chances. This is why the perception on many that believe that are said to be into replacement theology and are anti-semetic.

6. I am sure you would say otherwise because of the church being brought into fruition with jew and gentile and I understand why you take that view but to believe that and not understand that the physical earthly Israel still has a covenant of Abraham and David that are eternal and conditioned by obedience and that it will happen because God promise and not to understand that they will have the new covenant in the future of a rulership position that is in a different role than the churches role in the kingdom is to ignore true passages and true context and reconciling all the scriptures on this subject properly according to history,prophecy and hermeneutics.

7. You have not debunked the scriptures that I have given about physical Israel that are plain and you have not debunked the scriptures that I have given about the different natures in completion of the two different kingdoms.

8. You are telling untruths of what I said and that is not koshered. This whole post you gave right now is trying to make out like I don't believe the new covenant was not given to the jew and the gentile individually which is not true and that for Israel the physical nation the covenant promises are over with because the church was the end of what Christ was trying to reach as a goal. With that being true I have more claim to say your view is infringing on Israel's earthly calling under the new covenant is stealing Israel's blessing than you do in saying that I believe that the church is in parentheses of which I don't. So your whole argument is wrong and out of line and context with the scriptures. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Your whole perception is that the church is to replace Israel in their calling at the head of the nations because Israel had their chance and they have no other chances. This is why the perception on many that believe that are said to be into replacement theology and are anti-semetic.

How in the world can you claim that I am "anti-semetic" when my wife and I make a monthly tithe to two organizations which are taking the Gospel to the Jewish people?

The people that run these ministries are Jewish Christians...
.

 

[iamlamad]

You are advocating a plan of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

All who will be saved after the Cross, will become part of the Church.
The New Covenant Church was announced by Jeremiah in the Old Testament at Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It is found spoken of by Christ in His own words.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.


Luk_23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

This New Covenant is "now" in effect.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


There is now no other plan of Salvation.
Paul warned that we are to preach no other plan.


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Church is not a "parenthesis" in God's Plan, as is taught by some Dispensationalists.

The Church of Jesus Christ is the Plan.
.

Did you ever read about the DOOR CLOSING and those outside crying to get it - but it was TOO LATE?

What does that tell you? What comes AFTER the door of the born again road CLOSES? Can no one then EVERY come to God? Be careful how you answer.

 

[BABerean2]

What comes AFTER the door of the born again road CLOSES? Can no one then EVERY come to God?

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

.

 

[iamlamad]

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

.

So that is the end of EVERYTHING in scripture? What comes AFTER the door closes? Does your theory not cover that?

 

[BABerean2]

So that is the end of EVERYTHING in scripture? What comes AFTER the door closes? Does your theory not cover that?

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Joh 5:27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

How in the world can you claim that I am "anti-semetic" when my wife and I make a monthly tithe to two organizations which are taking the Gospel to the Jewish people?

The people that run these ministries are Jewish Christians...
.

baberean2,

1. I am aware of your caption about the jews you support and I don't even know you personally so I would not accuse you of something like that directly unless you gave more of a reason for me to believe such a thing. You see, I didn't say you were anti-semetic. I said the perception of some people that see people who believe in replacement theology view them as anti-semetic. If you can't understand the simple statement I made and the context of it how do you expect me to believe you know what you are talking about the scriptures and it context on a particular subject. This is not a personal attack, it is about the perception of some people and why they have deduced from what the view shows.

2. You have accused me in plain terms that I believed in another salvation and that there could not be different rulership positions in the kingdom and still be all christians under the new covenant.
The jews were the only ones with a covenant to begin with and they got pretty proud and thought they were in the club in Ezekiel's day and God say those of mine in my elect nation who have sinned and will not repent of their sins I will remember their righteousness no more and they will die. This is talking about the spiritual and physical death. If the wicked repent they will be saved and that is what those sinning jews didn't like and Christ said, was his ways not equal and they said no and Christ said those jews were wrong. This is why Paul warned about the gentiles getting too high and mighty because they were the body of Christ. He talks about it in verses 28-24 about gentiles boasting and the severity and goodness of God and what that involved; goodness if they continued abiding in his goodness or severity if they did not. This is why the jew could be grafted in and the nation could take their covenant position in the kingdom which was eternal and would happen to the elect nation of Israel made up of physical jews who will obey them when the fulness of the gentiles be come in.

3. The question that arises is if the nation of Israel would have accepted the kingdom would the kingdom started then. First of all, it was prophesied that they would not accept Christ and reject him they did. This did not make the offer non valid because if he wouldn't have offered the kingdom at all they couldn't officially reject him and the offer was in reference to their covenant.

4. Secondly, Jesus goal was to die for the whole world and not jews only. Abraham was a gentile and he was the father of the jewish race. This is significant in understanding Jesus dying for the world and the body of Christ and Abraham's seed being as the sand of the sea etc.

5. Thirdly, the new covenant had not been set forth in Jesus ministry because it was about his death and resurrection of which they really had not clue that he was the sacrifice even when John declared, Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

6. In the future, Israel will come back to God and the kingdom gospel will be the king is coming and the kingdom is coming and the new covenant will be understood and it is already in effect now but it will be with the nation of disobedient Israel so they can fulfill their covenants. So technically the question of what if Israel would have accepted the kingdom it seems would have created more problems with Israel becoming the head of the nations for certain reasons. The fact is they rejected Christ according to the prophecies and God has not forgotten them and they will obey in the future and take their rightful place as head of the nations and they will be under the new covenant.

7. I have enjoyed conversing with you and I don't mind opposing views. The only thing I am not keen to is if I feel like someone is not being fair in debate and rebuttal or being accused wrongly. Sometimes it takes a while to sift through what is being said and what the real argument is on both sides. I apologize if I am not as pithy as I could be so I'll try a little harder after this, but at the same time I think it is important to understand as much of the big picture and the details at the same time. Continue on! Jerry Kelso

 

[iamlamad]

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Joh 5:27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

.

All great scriptures, but you sidestepped the question: does your theory give NO HOPE of salvation ever after this door is closed?

Will people quit having children so there will be no more ever?
Will all that were outside when the door closed by doomed forever?

It seems you guess this door is closed at the 7th trumpet?

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. I am aware of your caption about the jews you support and I don't even know you personally so I would not accuse you of something like that directly unless you gave more of a reason for me to believe such a thing. You see, I didn't say you were anti-semetic. I said the perception of some people that see people who believe in replacement theology view them as anti-semetic. If you can't understand the simple statement I made and the context of it how do you expect me to believe you know what you are talking about the scriptures and it context on a particular subject. This is not a personal attack, it is about the perception of some people and why they have deduced from what the view shows.

2. You have accused me in plain terms that I believed in another salvation and that there could not be different rulership positions in the kingdom and still be all christians under the new covenant.
The jews were the only ones with a covenant to begin with and they got pretty proud and thought they were in the club in Ezekiel's day and God say those of mine in my elect nation who have sinned and will not repent of their sins I will remember their righteousness no more and they will die. This is talking about the spiritual and physical death. If the wicked repent they will be saved and that is what those sinning jews didn't like and Christ said, was his ways not equal and they said no and Christ said those jews were wrong. This is why Paul warned about the gentiles getting too high and mighty because they were the body of Christ. He talks about it in verses 28-24 about gentiles boasting and the severity and goodness of God and what that involved; goodness if they continued abiding in his goodness or severity if they did not. This is why the jew could be grafted in and the nation could take their covenant position in the kingdom which was eternal and would happen to the elect nation of Israel made up of physical jews who will obey them when the fulness of the gentiles be come in.

3. The question that arises is if the nation of Israel would have accepted the kingdom would the kingdom started then. First of all, it was prophesied that they would not accept Christ and reject him they did. This did not make the offer non valid because if he wouldn't have offered the kingdom at all they couldn't officially reject him and the offer was in reference to their covenant.

4. Secondly, Jesus goal was to die for the whole world and not jews only. Abraham was a gentile and he was the father of the jewish race. This is significant in understanding Jesus dying for the world and the body of Christ and Abraham's seed being as the sand of the sea etc.

5. Thirdly, the new covenant had not been set forth in Jesus ministry because it was about his death and resurrection of which they really had not clue that he was the sacrifice even when John declared, Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

6. In the future, Israel will come back to God and the kingdom gospel will be the king is coming and the kingdom is coming and the new covenant will be understood and it is already in effect now but it will be with the nation of disobedient Israel so they can fulfill their covenants. So technically the question of what if Israel would have accepted the kingdom it seems would have created more problems with Israel becoming the head of the nations for certain reasons. The fact is they rejected Christ according to the prophecies and God has not forgotten them and they will obey in the future and take their rightful place as head of the nations and they will be under the new covenant.

7. I have enjoyed conversing with you and I don't mind opposing views. The only thing I am not keen to is if I feel like someone is not being fair in debate and rebuttal or being accused wrongly. Sometimes it takes a while to sift through what is being said and what the real argument is on both sides. I apologize if I am not as pithy as I could be so I'll try a little harder after this, but at the same time I think it is important to understand as much of the big picture and the details at the same time. Continue on! Jerry Kelso

Jerry,

Your post above contains two errors.

The Gentiles were grafted in among the Israelite branches like the Apostle Paul (Romans 11:1), that remained in the Olive Tree in Romans chapter 11. When the Church began, it was made up of Israelites. It was only the unbelieving Israelite branches that were broken off. They can be grafted back in through faith in Christ.
This error has promoted the claim that today's Church is a "Gentile Church".
Since I personally know Jewish Christians, nothing could be further from the truth.

The second error is the idea that Christ actually offered a physical kingdom to Israel during His earthly ministry.
When they tried to make Him king, He left.


John_6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

Your post above contains two errors.

The Gentiles were grafted in among the Israelite branches like the Apostle Paul (Romans 11:1), that remained in the Olive Tree in Romans chapter 11. When the Church began, it was made up of Israelites. It was only the unbelieving Israelite branches that were broken off. They can be grafted back in through faith in Christ.
This error has promoted the claim that today's Church is a "Gentile Church".
Since I personally know Jewish Christians, nothing could be further from the truth.

The second error is the idea that Christ actually offered a physical kingdom to Israel during His earthly ministry.
When they tried to make Him king, He left.


John_6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

.

baberean2,

1. The gentiles were grafted in and I agree. Romans 11:24. The individual believing jews remained in. Romans 11:5

2. The early church was jews and gentiles who were proselyted into judaism. Acts 2:10

3. The unbelieving jews can be grafted in. Romans 11:24.

4. The church is not a gentile church for it is made up of jews and gentiles known as the body of Christ. Ephesians 3:6

5. John 6:15 is true that they wanted to take him by force and make him a king.
One, Jesus wouldn't have proclaimed the message about entering into the KoH if he had no intention of giving it to them. This would be an invalid offer.

6. Two, if it was just about the KoG in their heart then there was no reason to mention a physical kingdom on earth at all and it was not time for him to be king because he had to die first. Also, he knew the hearts of all the nation were not born again they just wanted the physical kingdom. Not long after that in John 6:53-70 shows that when he preached about the bread of heaven and eating his flesh and drinking his blood many left him and the disciples didn't even understand him even though they remained with him. In Matthew 23:37-39 shows the rejection of the nation of Israel and it would have most likely been about the time of John 6.

7. In Luke 19:28-48 shows the account of Jesus triumphant entry into Jerusalem on the colt and the crowds saying Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven and glory in the highest. And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

8. At the same time Christ wept coming into the city because he knew they would reject him shortly thereafter. He knew they didn't know the time of his visitation. Verse 42 says, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

9. The jews as a whole nation was more into making him a conquering king instead of being obedient and repent with their heart and be born again. God will not rule with man without a holy heart. Jesus knew the prophecies as well.

10. He slipped away earlier for they wanted to make him a king and later on he embraced their worship as a king and wanting to make him a king. But not all the nation wanted this and most were not born again.
Once again you have to take all the scriptures and understand their context to put them together and reconcile them properly so they will not contradict each other and to be able to understand what is truly going on. I am sorry but your objections are wrong again according to scripture. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

9. The jews as a whole nation was more into making him a conquering king instead of being obedient and repent with their heart and be born again. God will not rule with man without a holy heart. Jesus knew the prophecies as well.

Jerry,

When you say "The jews as a whole nation" will come to faith in Christ, do you mean every single Jew in the modern nation of Israel or are you talking about a majority of 51%?

Do you mean Christ will be accepted by all of the modern Jewish Rabbis in the country or all of the political leadership of the modern nation? Or do you mean a majority of these groups?

.

 

[BABerean2]

It seems you guess this door is closed at the 7th trumpet?

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mat_3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Dan_3:26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.



2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

When you say "The jews as a whole nation" will come to faith in Christ, do you mean every single Jew in the modern nation of Israel or are you talking about a majority of 51%?

Do you mean Christ will be accepted by all of the modern Jewish Rabbis in the country or all of the political leadership of the modern nation? Or do you mean a majority of these groups?

.

baberean2,

1. The covenant of Abraham and David are made with the physical nation of Israel. There are many atheists in the nation today and some say Dan will be one of these tribes because of the scripture about Dan being a serpent or something to that effect.

2. In any case, Revelation 7, 144,000 jews are sealed out of the 12 tribes and will be safe through the 7 trumpets (Revelation 9:4) and then raptured in the days or shortly thereafter as the man child as we see them in Revelation 14 on the heavenly Mt. Sion before the throne. Revelation 7:1-8.

3. They will be a smaller part of the nation and Revelation 12 bears out the man child is raptured and goes into the wilderness. Revelation 12:13 This rapture is what is meant by the woman bringing forth the man child as well as the man child comes from the loins of Israel which with the fact of being from the physical tribes proves they are physical jews.

4. Some believe this is the remnant but the 144,000 are separate from the remnant for the remnant ones are they that come through the fire and are still on earth at the time of the battle of Armageddon.
If they are the man child and are raptured when the woman goes into the wilderness and the remnant flees at this time and are present at the time of the 2 witnesses rapture then they cannot be the remnant.
The 144,000 Jews will surely be missionaries to lost jews and gentiles. They were redeemed from among men and from the earth and are the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb and sing a new song no one else could sing.

5. The 2 Witnesses I believe are Elijah and Enoch even though there are other possibilities. It does say in Malachi about Elijah coming back before the dreadful day and turning the hearts of the children to the father etc. This happened as a type in John's day because the disciples asked him about this and he said, surely Elijah shall come and restore all things but I say unto you that even Elijah has already come etc. This means that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah because when asked he said he wasn't John the Baptist.
Jewish history was that Elijah will come back and restore Israel by preparing the nation and give order to the nations about the kingdom message and obviously according to Revelation 11 they are to protect Israel. Some say this is about the rebuilding of the temple in the 1st half because it will take 42 months to build it.
It seems like it may be better fitted towards the end of the tribulation because the remnant in the middle of the tribulation are fleeing from the antichrist armies in Revelation 12:15-17. Also, the earthquake in verse 13 is said to be the same as in the last half of the tribulation. There are good arguments for both sides and probably is debatable.

6. The main point is in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 says "after those days". This is talking about the tribulation.

7. God knows who is in what tribe and they will regathered to the country of Israel in the last days and those regathered will flee to the wilderness and be preserved in the wilderness. Revelation 12:14 where she is preserved for 1260 days or the last 3.5 years of the tribulation. The woman is the bulk of the physical nation of Israel and nothing is said that they are actually saved even though they may be. The remnant are definitely saved. Revelation 12:17.

8. Both Jeremiah and Hebrews shows that after those days (tribulation) God will make the covenant with Israel and the Lord will put his law into their minds and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. They will not necessarily know Christ but they will repent because they will understand the one that they pierced and the whole essence of Calvary and the new covenant. Revelation 1:7. Both Jeremiah and Hebrews use this wording and progression.

9. So the nation will be together as a physical nation because they will be regathered to the country of Israel as in Ezekiel 37 of the dry bones that have to be revived. Both Judah and Israel have to be reunited as the two sticks. Judah is where the scepter will come out Judah of which Christ was from.

10. So the nation in the wilderness and the remnant who flee from the wilderness will make up all of Israel to inherit the head of the nations. Technically, the jews can be regathered and not necessarily saved when going into the wilderness because they are wanting to go home. They do have to eventually repent and be saved and will be.

11. The unbelievers whether they be political leaders or common men that are cut off will be rebels from the nation of Israel and the remnant will come through the fire. Zechariah 13:9. So all Israel will be saved as the nation and as individuals will be saved before Christ sets up the KoH. Both Jeremiah and Hebrews point out that none shall teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. This shows that all of Israel will not be saved but will be in the nation in the wilderness and have to repent before the KoH begins. All of Israel will be saved before the KoH reign begins. Jerry Kelso

 

[iamlamad]

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mat_3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Dan_3:26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.



2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Again a sidestep. Are you just not capable of answering a question?

 

[BABerean2]

Again a sidestep. Are you just not capable of answering a question?

It was my belief that the scriptures speak for themselves.

However, if you still do not get it, God's Word says that Christ returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

Based on the parable of the virgins in Matthew chapter 25, there will be no second chances.
The door will be shut at the 7th trumpet, based on my understanding of the text.

Christ will judge both those alive and dead at His appearing.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


I thought we had covered this ground before...

.

 

[BABerean2]

11. The unbelievers whether they be political leaders or common men that are cut off will be rebels from the nation of Israel and the remnant will come through the fire. Zechariah 13:9. So all Israel will be saved as the nation and as individuals will be saved before Christ sets up the KoH. Both Jeremiah and Hebrews point out that none shall teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. This shows that all of Israel will not be saved but will be in the nation in the wilderness and have to repent before the KoH begins. All of Israel will be saved before the KoH reign begins. Jerry Kelso

Jerry,

Your statement above is full of conflict.

You say above that only a remnant will come through the fire and then later say all of Israel as a nation will be saved.

Based on your logic, if only two people from the modern nation of Israel survive and come to Christ, then all of Israel will be saved.
.

 

[iamlamad]

It was my belief that the scriptures speak for themselves.

However, if you still do not get it, God's Word says that Christ returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

Based on the parable of the virgins in Matthew chapter 25, there will be no second chances.
The door will be shut at the 7th trumpet, based on my understanding of the text.

Christ will judge both those alive and dead at His appearing.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


I thought we had covered this ground before...

.

So you are saying that ONLY born again people will be allowed entrance into the Millennial Kingdom?

Then what about the millions that will be BORN during the Millennial kingdom? Some will rebel after the thousand years - even if you don't believe it will be a literal thousand years.

So after Christ comes, AFTER that judging, the door to the born again road has closed. Is there NO HOPE for all those born AFTER THAT?

By the way, your theory of the 7th trumpet is not truth. Read again the things that happen at the 7th trumpet: KINGDOMS change hands. Once the World is back in God's hands, a prophecy is given of future events.

NOTHING MORE written about the 7th trumpet. Are you into ad libbing...just making up stuff to fit a theory?

I have yet for you to explain WHY you have to change the normal reading of the text about the marriage to make it fit. Isn't that what you accuse pretribbers of doing? Indeed, you do the very same thing, but with your theory it is OK because your theory is the right theory. I got it.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

Your statement above is full of conflict.

You say above that only a remnant will come through the fire and then later say all of Israel as a nation will be saved.

Based on your logic, if only two people from the modern nation of Israel survive and come to Christ, then all of Israel will be saved.

Your statement above is full of conflict.

You say above that only a remnant will come through the fire and then later say all of Israel as a nation will be saved.

Based on your logic, if only two people from the modern nation of Israel survive and come to Christ, then all of Israel will be saved.
.

baberean2,

1. Romans 9:3-4 show that the covenants were given to physical Israel of which Abraham was the father who
was born a gentile.

2. Romans 9:5 Promise to produce the Messiah whether believing or not. The jews were backslidden and out of covenant during Jesus ministry.

3. In the future it will be the same due to the phrase, "after those days" which I already explained.
Groups of Jews in the tribulation: Revelation 7; The sealing of the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel

4. Revelation 12; The sun-clothed woman is the nation of Israel

5. Revelation 12; The remnant of her seed is those believing jews scattered from the nation and the preserving of the wilderness

6. Revelation 14; The 144,000 are seen in heaven around the throne

7. Revelation 15; The tribulation saints who are the blessed dead in Revelation 14 are in heaven singing the song of Moses and the lamb. This is the same group in the first resurrection of Revelation 20 who don't take the mark. This happens before the 7 vials are opened on the beast kingdom worshippers.

8. John 5:43 unbelievers will be in the tribulation and take the mark of the beast and serve Antichrist for they will serve another other than Christ, which is the reference.

9. Ezekiel 20:33-38, Hosea 2:14-17 show the purging of Israel in the wilderness and verse 39 shows the rebels will not enter into Israel.

10. They also show that purging will be done in the wilderness.

11. The sun-clothed woman who is Israel will be the remnant. She gives birth to the 144,000 who go to heaven and the other part of her seed is scattered from the wilderness.

12. There has to be unbelieving jews that come to God apart from the remnant of the woman and her seed because Revelation 14 talks about the blessed dead who die henceforth and in Revelation 15 those who didn't take the mark of the beast are raptured in the first resurrection and sing the song of Moses and the lamb. Revelation 13:7; the antichrist makes war on the saints who will be jews and gentiles.

13. So 2/3 rebels will be cut off and 1/3 will remain. The 2/3 will not be all at one time according to the progression of Revelation of the scenario of the tribulation.

14. 1/3 will be the remnant who is the nation of Israel as the sun-clothed woman who flees into the wilderness. A part of that 1/3 will be scattered and remain through the tribulation for they are the remnant.
Now it could be that being the seed of the remnant which keep the commandments etc. are killed in which case that would mean that the remnant of 1/3 would totally be the nation and her scattered seed would not be included in that 1/3. If they are killed they would be part of Revelation 15 and the tribulation saints who don't take the mark and are raptured in the 1st resurrection which is the same as Revelation 20 and is before the wrath of God on the beast kingdom. Either way 1/3 will be preserved of Israel in both of these descriptions. And so all Israel will be saved. There are no contradictions. Jerry kelso

 

[iamlamad]

baberean2,

1. Romans 9:3-4 show that the covenants were given to physical Israel of which Abraham was the father who
was born a gentile.
CHECK!
2. Romans 9:5 Promise to produce the Messiah whether believing or not. The jews were backslidden and out of covenant during Jesus ministry.
Almost CHECK!. When Paul wrote, it was an accomplished fact, not a promise.
3. In the future it will be the same due to the phrase, "after those days" which I already explained.
Groups of Jews in the tribulation: Revelation 7; The sealing of the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel
CHECK!
4. Revelation 12; The sun-clothed woman is the nation of Israel
CHECK!
5. Revelation 12; The remnant of her seed is those believing jews scattered from the nation and the preserving of the wilderness
I disagree here: The CHURCH is the "children" or offspring of Israel. These have the testimony of Jesus Christ. It is at this point that the Beast (man of sin turned wild and probably possessed)starts after all believers.
6. Revelation 14; The 144,000 are seen in heaven around the throne
CHECK!
7. Revelation 15; The tribulation saints who are the blessed dead in Revelation 14 are in heaven singing the song of Moses and the lamb. This is the same group in the first resurrection of Revelation 20 who don't take the mark. This happens before the 7 vials are opened on the beast kingdom worshippers.
CHECK! Events of chapter 16 will come AFTER the events of chapter 15.
8. John 5:43 unbelievers will be in the tribulation and take the mark of the beast and serve Antichrist for they will serve another other than Christ, which is the reference.
CHECK!
9. Ezekiel 20:33-38, Hosea 2:14-17 show the purging of Israel in the wilderness and verse 39 shows the rebels will not enter into Israel.
CHECK!
10. They also show that purging will be done in the wilderness.
CHECK!
11. The sun-clothed woman who is Israel will be the remnant. She gives birth to the 144,000 who go to heaven and the other part of her seed is scattered from the wilderness.
NOT! No check here. You are reading into the text what is not there. The woman gave birth to the SON. The remnant will come from Israel, of course, as is written. But the sun clothed woman with the moon at her feet was describing Israel in 2 BC when Jesus was born. I don't know if anyone has proved yet that this same cosmic sign will be repeated around the midpoint of the future 70th week. Anyway, "remnant" means only a small part of the whole. Question? Why were not the 144,000 raptured with the Church?
12. There has to be unbelieving jews that come to God apart from the remnant of the woman and her seed because Revelation 14 talks about the blessed dead who die henceforth and in Revelation 15 those who didn't take the mark of the beast are raptured in the first resurrection and sing the song of Moses and the lamb. Revelation 13:7; the antichrist makes war on the saints who will be jews and gentiles.
CHECK!
13. So 2/3 rebels will be cut off and 1/3 will remain. The 2/3 will not be all at one time according to the progression of Revelation of the scenario of the tribulation.
CHECK! Only 1/3 make it through. My guess is, most of the 1/3 will be those who have to SEE Jesus and the nail scars before they believe.
14. 1/3 will be the remnant who is the nation of Israel as the sun-clothed woman who flees into the wilderness. A part of that 1/3 will be scattered and remain through the tribulation for they are the remnant.
Now it could be that being the seed of the remnant which keep the commandments etc. are killed in which case that would mean that the remnant of 1/3 would totally be the nation and her scattered seed would not be included in that 1/3. If they are killed they would be part of Revelation 15 and the tribulation saints who don't take the mark and are raptured in the 1st resurrection which is the same as Revelation 20 and is before the wrath of God on the beast kingdom. Either way 1/3 will be preserved of Israel in both of these descriptions. And so all Israel will be saved. There are no contradictions. Jerry kelso

Sorry, it is NOT the sun clothed woman who flees: that was Israel when Jesus was born. It will be those in Judea who flee. Most will certainly be descendants of Jacob. Perhaps many of the "remnant" live in the US!
I pretty much agree: Good job!

 

[BABerean2]

So you are saying that ONLY born again people will be allowed entrance into the Millennial Kingdom?

Then what about the millions that will be BORN during the Millennial kingdom? Some will rebel after the thousand years - even if you don't believe it will be a literal thousand years.

So after Christ comes, AFTER that judging, the door to the born again road has closed. Is there NO HOPE for all those born AFTER THAT?

By the way, your theory of the 7th trumpet is not truth. Read again the things that happen at the 7th trumpet: KINGDOMS change hands. Once the World is back in God's hands, a prophecy is given of future events.

NOTHING MORE written about the 7th trumpet. Are you into ad libbing...just making up stuff to fit a theory?

I have yet for you to explain WHY you have to change the normal reading of the text about the marriage to make it fit. Isn't that what you accuse pretribbers of doing? Indeed, you do the very same thing, but with your theory it is OK because your theory is the right theory. I got it.

Lamad,

Could you knock off the condemnation for at least this week, when we will celebrate the birthday of Christ?

In your response above, you seem to be implying that I am lying.

We can disagree, but your dependence on condemnation for those who disagree with John Darby's doctrine is not helping your arguments.

As a matter of fact, the condemnation is hurting your viewpoint when new people view these posts...

.