Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Bible2+]

tanzel said in post 4973:

Theres only Resurrections, you can't use 1 Thes. 4 as a Rapture event.

Actually, you can use 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to refer to the rapture event, which will immediately follow the resurrection in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That is, the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up" together to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

 

[Bible2+]

Doug said in post 4981:

I didn't equate the twenty-four elders in heaven with the rapture/resurrecton. But it would not be out of line. Yes, they are there now as departed souls, I agree with you on that, but when John sees them they have crowns on their heads. Which there are several passages in the new testament regarding crowns received by the saints for what they did here on earth.

Note that the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

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Note that the 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they wear crowns of victory. But in Revelation 4:4, the original Greek word (stephanos: G4735) translated as crowns doesn't have to always refer to a crown of victory, but can sometimes refer to a crown signifying "honor generally" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Also, angels can win victories (Revelation 12:7-9), and so can wear crowns of victory.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

Also, the 24 elders sitting on thrones (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the devil can sit on a throne (Revelation 2:13, Revelation 13:2b), then some angels can sit on thrones.

Also, the 24 elders being called "elders" (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, even though angels don't age. For they can be a special group of elder angels simply in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders". But this argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they perform physical acts (Revelation 4:10). But angels can perform physical acts, like how the 2 angels who rescued Lot and his family grabbed their hands to hasten them out of the city (Genesis 19:1,16).

Doug said in post 4981:

It is up to them who insist that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 (you put an unfair burden on them who you engage in discussion to identify exactly what passage you are referring to) to show that is the rapture, because (1) no resurrection (2) no translation of the living - in Matthew 24:31.

Regarding no resurrection, note that Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, 2nd coming of Jesus as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6. And the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the 1st resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

 

[Postvieww]

Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega,

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump (voice) of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

My bible say this is "Voice of God" (Jesus) not some angel blowing on a trumpet.

And "Knowledge" tell me that only the "Voice of God" can call people from the grave/resurrect them.

Re 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

What is this "Trump of God", an angel blowing on a trumpet, or the "Voice of God"????

I doubt that you know what an archangel is or who is the number one archangel in Heaven.




Then why does the scripture say the unsaved dead stay dead at the second coming until the thousand years are over??????




Finished for who, the world or the church???

Jesus/church/rapture/scriptures are no mystery to those who have ears to hears,

Jesus's coming and establishing the church and then taking the church out of the way of God finishing Daniel's prophecy with Israel, is only a mystery to those who don't have ears to hear.




So I guess God really didn't use a people who are not a people to make Jews jealous after all.



None that scripture/spirit deniers would recognize anyway.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:



Are you saying there's nothing in the scriptures about the "end" (fulness) of the time Jesus deals with the church and God goes back to dealing with Israel????

What does "Fulness" mean as used by scripture???

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,

until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What is this "Fulness of time" and why does it have to be over before the blinders can come off of Israel?????







Why don't you explain to us why in the trib both Satan and God say that anyone who confess Jesus, "Should be killed",

but Jesus doesn't say the same about those in the church,

"WHY" the difference???


You remind me of another fellow on another forum, he kept knowing more and more about less and less until he knew nothing about everything, it got so bad even unbelievers recognize his ignorance.

Not only will the spirit reveal those who are "Approved" to teach the scripture, it will also reveal those who are not "Approved" to teach the scriptures.

And make no mistake about it, "approval rating" will be "posted".

Blue Bab
Red Postvieww
Black Short Timer

Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The voice was described “as of a trumpet”, it was not called a trumpet!

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega,

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump (voice) of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

We have already had voice of the Lord referred to in the first of the verse. Next we have the voice of the archangel, then the trump of God. It is your words that call that trump “the voice of God” the text does not say or imply that! If the Holy Spirit wanted to say the voice of God He would have had Paul write that. God is not the author of confusion. It is the trump of God you are wrong!

My bible say this is "Voice of God" (Jesus) not some angel blowing on a trumpet.

Your bible does not say that, you have given your private interpretation. If God decreed the angel “blowing on a trumpet” would raise the dead, the dead would rise when the trumpet was blown!!!! There is nothing in your bible that says the trump in 1 Thess 4:16 is the voice of God!

Knowledge" tell me that only the "Voice of God" can call people from the grave/resurrect them.

1 Thess 4:16 already said the Lord will shout, the same verse says “AND with the trump of God”.

The verse does not say the Lord’s shout was like a trump, it list the trump in addition to his shout.

Re 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

What is this "Trump of God", an angel blowing on a trumpet, or the "Voice of God"????

1 Thess 4:16 doesn’t say who blew the trumpet. You have just declared it was the voice of God, when the passage already stated the Lord shouts.

1 Corin 15:52 tells us “the trumpet shall sound , AND the dead in Christ shall be raised”. You have no scriptural basis for changing trump of God to voice of God.

I doubt that you know what an archangel is or who is the number one archangel in Heaven.

Just another diversion to cover for your lack of understanding on what the scripture is actually saying.

Do you know who are “thy people” Michael stands up for in Daniel 12:1-2 ?

It is also the time of God's wrath and the judgment of the dead.

Then why does the scripture say the unsaved dead stay dead at the second coming until the thousand years are over??????

Please quote the scripture that says “the unsaved dead stay dead at the second coming”

In Revelation chapter 10 the Apostle John said the last trumpet would be the time at which "the Mystery" is finished.

Finished for who, the world or the church???

Finished means finished, last means last and end means end!

Jesus/church/rapture/scriptures are no mystery to those who have ears to hears,

Jesus's coming and establishing the church and then taking the church out of the way of God finishing Daniel's prophecy with Israel, is only a mystery to those who don't have ears to hear.

The Church today is not a Gentile Church. It is made up of both Jews and Gentiles as it was in the first century.

So I guess God really didn't use a people who are not a people to make Jews jealous after all.

Many Christians cannot explain the PRE trib rapture, because a 7 year stay in heaven is not found within the text of 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5.

None that scripture/spirit deniers would recognize anyway.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

How do you tie this verse to the length of the tribulation? Antichrist will be given power to continue forty and two months, Rev 13:5. That’s 3 ½ years!

The idea came from the "vision" of a sick 15 year old girl in 1830.

The "Secret Rapture" of the Irvingites was adopted by John Darby and brought to America around the time of the Civil War.

Are you saying there's nothing in the scriptures about the "end" (fulness) of the time Jesus deals with the church and God goes back to dealing with Israel????

What does "Fulness" mean as used by scripture???

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What is this "Fulness of time" and why does it have to be over before the blinders can come off of Israel?????

Based on Romans chapter 11, the only way modern Jews can be saved is by being grafted back into the olive tree, containing the Israelites and Gentiles who have placed their faith in Christ.

Why don't you explain to us why in the trib both Satan and God say that anyone who confess Jesus, "Should be killed",

If you refer to Rev 6:11 and Rev 13:15 you have just shown why you are so confused on much of this. This passage , Rev 6:11 is not as you suggest, saying that anyone who confesses Jesus has to be killed. It is merely stating that the souls of those already slain in verse 9 should rest until the last martyr is slain before God avenges their blood on them that dwell on earth. That would be when He returns at the second coming. God is not condemning them to death, their death is just one of the fulfillments of Matt 24:9.

but Jesus doesn't say the same about those in the church,

I beg your pardon, He did. Matt 24: 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. He's not saying they have to be killed, He is just saying it will happen.

"WHY" the difference???

You remind me of another fellow on another forum, he kept knowing more and more about less and less until he knew nothing about everything, it got so bad even unbelievers recognize his ignorance.

You really should stop boasting of your superior knowledge and spirituality.

Not only will the spirit reveal those who are "Approved" to teach the scripture, it will also reveal those who are not "Approved" to teach the scriptures.

Are you the only one here “approved” ?

And make no mistake about it, "approval rating" will be "posted".

You just posted yours.

 

[Douggg]

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders". But this argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.

Elders, by two's, come to my front door every once in a while, white shirt and tie, knock, and the two men in their early twenties I would say, very polite, introduce themselves as I am Elder so and so, and this is Elder so and so - and they wish to leave with me the Book of Mormon. I think that should clarify who the Elders are in Revelation 4 - assuming you are a Mormon.

Regarding no resurrection, note that Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, 2nd coming of Jesus as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6.

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is for the martyred tribulation saints, a special group. And no translation of the living, i.e. the rapture in Revelation 19:7-20:6. And no angels going out to gather anyone.

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

There is no translation of the living in Revelation 19:7- 20:4. No rapture. There is only the resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4. No gathering by angels. Matthew 24:31 is not a resurrection/nor rapture.

 

[Postvieww]

Note that the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

-

Note that the 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they wear crowns of victory. But in Revelation 4:4, the original Greek word (stephanos: G4735) translated as crowns doesn't have to always refer to a crown of victory, but can sometimes refer to a crown signifying "honor generally" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Also, angels can win victories (Revelation 12:7-9), and so can wear crowns of victory.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

Also, the 24 elders sitting on thrones (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the devil can sit on a throne (Revelation 2:13, Revelation 13:2b), then some angels can sit on thrones.

Also, the 24 elders being called "elders" (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, even though angels don't age. For they can be a special group of elder angels simply in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders". But this argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they perform physical acts (Revelation 4:10). But angels can perform physical acts, like how the 2 angels who rescued Lot and his family grabbed their hands to hasten them out of the city (Genesis 19:1,16).



Regarding no resurrection, note that Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, 2nd coming of Jesus as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6. And the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the 1st resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Bible2+ said in post 4986

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

If you read Rev 5:8-10 in the ASV there is no conflict and no need for explanation.

Rev 5:8-10 ASV

8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.


-

 

[ivebeenshown]

The ommission is specific to the rapture verses in 1thessalonians13-16. I don't think it was an unitentional ommission.

Then this would be your opinion, because omission cannot be used as a positive proof.

That's lame. You want to be elusive and not held to accountability of what you state... that's the real reason.

I am not encouraged by your poor assumptions of my intentions, but I won't be downtrodden either. It is the Lord who judges hearts.

The convention of numbering chapters and verse is in the printed bible, that everyone here uses. You are not reading from a bible that does not have chapter and verses. Jesus nor the Apostles instructed anyone - don't reference by chapter and verse from the bible.

You are correct that they did not instruct anyone to not reference by chapter and verse, but you would be incorrect if you stated that they themselves referenced chapters and verses. In my opinion, it causes one to have a deeper consideration for taking Scripture to heart. Many Scriptures are distinct enough not even to need the name of the book, and those which are not distinct enough typically only need the name of the book to be located.

There are three heavens - the earth's atmosphere, the cosmos, and the heaven where God's throne is, which Paul calls the third heaven. When the rapture/resurrection takes place - Jesus descends from the third heaven, into the cosmos, the second heaven.

By voice, he resurrects the dead (bodies); and by voice he says "come up hither" (if we apply what John wrote in Revelation 4) to the living. In the clouds of the first heaven, both the resurrected dead and the living are together at that point. They proceed to meet the Lord in the air - which is in the cosmos, the second heaven. From there to the third heaven. The door is then closed. All by the power of Jesus and his voice.

But the Scriptures do not say that "he will descend into the cosmos." They do say that he will "come" and that he will "descend from heaven."

I wrote that John represented the raptured/resurrected church.

I didn't equate the twenty-four elders in heaven with the rapture/resurrecton. But it would not be out of line. Yes, they are there now as departed souls, I agree with you on that, but when John sees them they have crowns on their heads. Which there are several passages in the new testament regarding crowns received by the saints for what they did here on earth.

I see then where I misunderstood your message, though now I can still see that it offers no concrete footing for your arguments to support a pre-tribulation rapture.

Actually the burden is reverse. It is up to them who insist that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 (you put an unfair burden on them who you engage in discussion to identify exactly what passage you are referring to) to show that is the rapture, because (1) no resurrection (2) no translation of the living - in Matthew 24:31.

It is not only in Matthew, but in Mark as well. But burden is not in fact on me to demonstrate that the Lord comes once, because we both agree that he comes at least once. The burden lies in proving that Paul would for whatever reason start writing of "his coming" and "the coming of the Lord" and not mean the same thing that had been stated in all of the other letters and writings where he comes in power and glory.

What do you mean "elsewhere" ? Is that the way Jesus and the Apostles spoke? Be specific, don't hide behind a veil of ambiguity, copy and paste the verse(s) or at least give the chapter(s) and verse(s). Is there a difficulty for you in that the Catholic bible is that much different than the KJV?

Is there any true difficulty for you in knowing which passage I am talking about? How many passages were there in which he spoke of his coming, if not three, all three of which were triply recollected among the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke?

 

[Postvieww]

Elders, by two's, come to my front door every once in a while, white shirt and tie, knock, and the two men in their early twenties I would say, very polite, introduce themselves as I am Elder so and so, and this is Elder so and so - and they wish to leave with me the Book of Mormon. I think that should clarify who the Elders are in Revelation 4 - assuming you are a Mormon.



The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is for the martyred tribulation saints, a special group. And no translation of the living, i.e. the rapture in Revelation 19:7-20:6. And no angels going out to gather anyone.



There is no translation of the living in Revelation 19:7- 20:4. No rapture. There is only the resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4. No gathering by angels. Matthew 24:31 is not a resurrection/nor rapture.

Dougg said in post #4988

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is for the martyred tribulation saints, a special group. And no translation of the living, i.e. the rapture in Revelation 19:7-20:6. And no angels going out to gather anyone.

When do you believe this resurrection takes place?

 

[Short Timer]

Ignoring a false teaching, BaB, is discernment. Believing something unsupported by scripture is foolishness.

One of the many prophesies that make a pre-trib rapture impossible is Revelation 12:17, where Satan [thrown down to earth, Revelation 12:9] wages war against all those who keep God's Commandments and have the testimony of Jesus. In other words: all the rest of the Christian people.
The 'woman' those Christians who have kept faithful during their test, Daniel 11:32b, are flown to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14

Why don't you explain matt 22 and the parable of the king making a wedding for his son and some people refusing the invitation and others accepting it,

and explain who the fellow is that is kicked out of the Kings house that doesn't have a wedding garment on.

The problem with you and your doctrine is that neither you or your doctrine have an explanation that can/will explain all parts of scripture without contradicting some other part of scripture.

So, Your ignorance is in not knowing everything the bible has to say about something, mainly you/others trying to use the NT to deny the pre trib rapture when it's the OT that explain purpose of the trib and who is accounted worthy to enter and who isn't.

And your doctrine is not consistence throughout the whole bible, imagine God saying he would do something, then change his mind, could anyone count on God being "faithful" to "keep his word",

not with all these different kind of doctrine being promoted here.

Anyone really believe the HG is teaching all these different doctrine or is it that somebody doesn't have ears to hear,

Imagine telling Jesus he is wrong, but that is precisely what you're doing when you deny something Jesus said/taught speaking through the "Holy Ghost of Jesus".

Jews didn't know "God" was speaking through this "man" Jesus, and many "Christians" still don't believe God/Jesus speaks through people today, so all they can "hear" is the audible voice, not the "Spiritual voice".

But since your/others doctrines is not consistence throughout scripture, I don't guess ya'll expect the same thing to happen to you that happen to the Jews.

We're at the end of the schedule God gives in scripture, and the "Falling away" is evident everywhere you look, those five virgins banging on the door will know what is coming next, but having quenched the spirit won't escape the things coming to pass.

 

[Douggg]

But the Scriptures do not say that "he will descend into the cosmos." They do say that he will "come" and that he will "descend from heaven."

No, it doesn't say he will descend into the cosmos. I was responding to your argument. Explaining how it could be that Jesus leaves heaven, but does not come all the way to earth when he comes in the 1thessalonians4:12-18 passage.

Interpretation of the bible prophecies is precept upon precept. I gave some of those precepts in referring to the three heavens. I cannot condense everything regarding there being three heavens into one post.

 

[Douggg]

I see then where I misunderstood your message, though now I can still see that it offers no concrete footing for your arguments to support a pre-tribulation rapture.

Why? Chapter and verse. If you say I can't prove to you fill in the blank
, then probably not.

 

[Douggg]

Dougg said in post #4988

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is for the martyred tribulation saints, a special group. And no translation of the living, i.e. the rapture in Revelation 19:7-20:6. And no angels going out to gather anyone.

When do you believe this resurrection takes place?

Right at the beginning of the 1000 years.

 

[Douggg]

It is not only in Matthew, but in Mark as well. But burden is not in fact on me to demonstrate that the Lord comes once, because we both agree that he comes at least once. The burden lies in proving that Paul would for whatever reason start writing of "his coming" and "the coming of the Lord" and not mean the same thing that had been stated in all of the other letters and writings where he comes in power and glory.

No, you had previously stated the burden of proof was on pre-trib that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture. I wrote that the reverse is the case - it is up to them who hold the rapture is the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31. to prove it.

Since you can't prove your case, haven't even attempted to, now you bring up something different.

 

[Short Timer]

the rapture will take believers straight up into the sky wherever they are on the earth's surface.For example, if a believer is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

I guess we don't get to go the the Father's house and the place Jesus went to prepare so we could be "with him".

Regarding Revelation 1:10b, it simply means that John the apostle heard a literal voice behind him which sounded only "like" a trumpet. And the next verse shows that voice was Jesus', telling John to write down what he would see, and send it to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey).

No it wasn't the "Voice of God", it was just some angel blowing on a trumpet, according to you.

That is, the trump-of-God resurrection of the church

Is it the trump/voice of God or the "Noise" of a trumpet blown by the seventh angel, that resurrects people????

Note that nothing requires that the trumpet of God in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 will be blown by God himself instead of by an angel under God's command,

Not knowing the difference between the Voice of God and angels blowing on trumpets, explains your doctrine.

Also, note that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 doesn't say that Jesus will come "by himself", just as nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 requires that the Lord himself won't be accompanied by his angels at that time. For otherwise there could be no "voice of the archangel" heard at that time.

Note that Jesus isn't any angel, but God the Son (Hebrews 1:4 to 2:16). So the voice of an archangel, literally a "chief angel",

An "Archangel" is a "Chief angel", Michael, Gabriel, are two, but there is one who is "Chief" over even them,
the "Angel of the Lord", and "Angel of God", who is the "Pre Incarnated"..."JESUS" in the OT.

Regarding Daniel 9:27, note that back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty,

Yes the AC make a treaty with Israel, why not the "Body of Christ" or church as well, if it was here,

but in the middle of the week, the treaty is broke, so how can the covenant be confirmed for "one week" if it is broke in the middle of the week????

Do You know what "Confirmed" means????

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

In Revelation 13:15, note that the original Greek verb (apokteino: G0615) translated as "should be killed" is in the aorist tense and the subjunctive mood. And neither the tense nor the mood contains the moral sense of the English phrase "should be", such as in: "You should be taking care of your elderly mother". Instead, the subjunctive mood is simply "the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances" (blueletterbible.org). An example would be the English phrase: "If any of the soldiers should be killed in the battle, we have evacuation helicopters at the stand-by". In the case of Revelation 13:15, the circumstance required in order for people to be killed will be their not worshipping the image of the beast.

Ya'll are showing ignorance of the Plan of salvation, Jesus says even the church "Should be killed".

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin (flesh) might be destroyed,

The only difference is that it's a "Spiritual sacrifice" for the church but a "Literally sacrifice" of the "body of sin" for those in the trib.

The difference is being "under Grace from the law" and being "under the law".

Ya'll have handed the "Holy Ghost" his "Lay off slip", he's "UN-employed", nobody needs him to teach them anything.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[ivebeenshown]

No, it doesn't say he will descend into the cosmos. I was responding to your argument. Explaining how it could be that Jesus leaves heaven, but does not come all the way to earth when he comes in the 1thessalonians4:12-18 passage.

Interpretation of the bible prophecies is precept upon precept. I gave some of those precepts in referring to the three heavens. I cannot condense everything regarding there being three heavens into one post.

I have not said that he comes all the way to earth. Jesus did not say that in his discourse at Olivet, either.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Why? Chapter and verse. If you say I can't prove to you fill in the blank
, then probably not.

But I am not proving something to you, you were trying to prove something to me. And I have said that I do not see your proof as sufficient to support your argument.

 

[ivebeenshown]

No, you had previously stated the burden of proof was on pre-trib that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture. I wrote that the reverse is the case - it is up to them who hold the rapture is the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31. to prove it.

Since you can't prove your case, haven't even attempted to, now you bring up something different.

You are incorrect. I have not stated that any burden is on you to prove a negative, that what Jesus spoke of was not the rapture. I have stated that the burden of proof is on pre-tribulation proponents to prove that what Paul spoke of indeed occurs before the tribulation spoken of by Jesus, although at times I may have stated it in the inverse negative form of "prove they are not the same". I will stop doing that.

Now, you are correct in that the burden of proof would lie on myself to prove that the coming which Paul spoke of is the same coming that Jesus spoke of, but I am also correct in that the burden of proof is on you for your positive claim that what Paul speaks of is prior to the tribulation that Jesus spoke of.

 

[Postvieww]

Right at the beginning of the 1000 years.

So you believe the first resurrection is at the beginning of the 1000 years, then how do you get a resurrection sometime before the second coming? Would it not be the first?

 

[Douggg]

So you believe the first resurrection is at the beginning of the 1000 years, then how do you get a resurrection sometime before the second coming? Would it not be the first?

There are two resurrections in Revelation 20. The first of the millennium resurrections is simply called the first resurrection, as "of the millennium" is implied. The resurrection/rapture in 1thessalonians4:13-18 is not called, in the text. the "first" resurrection, because it is not the event of the first resurrection of the millennium.

There is no translation of the living in the Revelation 20:4 event. It is a resurrection specific to the great tribulation martyred saints.

 

[Riberra]

There are two resurrections in Revelation 20. The first of the millennium resurrections is simply called the first resurrection, as "of the millennium" is implied. The resurrection/rapture in 1thessalonians4:13-18 is not called, in the text. the "first" resurrection, because it is not the event of the first resurrection of the millennium.

There is no translation of the living in the Revelation 20:4 event. It is a resurrection specific to the great tribulation martyred saints.

I think that the sentence ALIVE AND REMAIN UNTO the COMING of the Lord used by Paul point out that only a REMAINING of believers will still be alive to be part of the resurrection/translation and caught up to meet Jesus in the air UNTO Jesus Coming after the Tribulation..All this happening at the Parousia.However Paul give us the certitude that all those in Christ whatever dead or alive and remain will be part of that Resurrection

1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and REMAIN unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Douggg]

I think that the sentence ALIVE AND REMAIN UNTO the COMING of the Lord used by Paul point out that only a REMAINING of believers will still be alive to be part of the resurrection/translation and caught up to meet Jesus in the air UNTO Jesus Coming after the Tribulation..All this happening at the Parousia.However Paul give us the certitude that all those in Christ whatever dead or alive and remain will be part of that Resurrection

What I think that means is that Paul recognized that there was a good chance that he would be no longer alive when the rapture/resurrection took place. But he still identified himself with the body of Christ, that there would be one generation who would be alive at the time. That's for verse 15.

Verse 17 a little different. In that verse, I think Paul is recognizing that the resurrection of the dead takes place first - leaving for a split second (we actually aren't told of the time interval) them who are alive at the time, still here on earth.... that is, them who remain. But it is only for a split second or so, I think because the two groups join together in the clouds, and from there continue on to meet Jesus in the air - somewhere in the cosmos, the second heaven.

My view aside...if I understand you correctly, you are thinking "and remain" - is meaning remaining alive after enduring the great tribulation? The problem with that interpretation is that there is no mentioning of the changing of the living in Revelation 20:4, only the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints. (I am assuming that you are trying to make the Revelation 20:4 event into the rapture/resurrection of 1thessalonians4:13-18)

Another thing I see is Paul is not throwing a great tribulation factor into the 1thessalonians4:13-18 text - just like he didn't label the resurrection the first resurrection.

The way Paul wrote 1thessalonians4:13-18 it could talke place anytime - because there are no conditions in the text.




1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and REMAIN unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/QUOTE]