I have a question directed towards Muslims

[withwonderingawe]

I found an article by Dr. Daniel Peterson of BYU. He is one of those people who actually speaks Arabic nd has visited Mosque all over the world. He has written a book on the life of Mohammad which I got half way through when my Mom borrowed it. Just thought some of the Mormons here and Christians might learn something from it.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-articles/understanding-islam

He writes;
"If Qur’anic statements against the divinity of Christ accurately represent the teachings of Muhammad—and there is no evidence that they do not—then we cannot accept him as a true prophet in the full sense of the word. We have little choice in this matter because, as Revelation 19:10 explains, “the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”"

But he doesn't rule out that he was given a certain amount of light and truth.

this is his Youtube, very interesting

 

[Limo]

Hello again brother man. May God by His Spirit lead us into all truth.
Limo you ask-
“Where is Holy Spirit in John 16:12-15 ? It's talking about "Spirit of the Truth" not the Holy spirit.”

Hello again
Ameeeen

¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
Thank you for explaining your understanding of how we receive God's forgiveness. You say -
''Once you fulfill the above conditions, then you should follow the suitable/appropriate Covenant that decides Doers/Non-Doers
Without all of the above preconditions , my sins will not be forgiven at all
I don't need something/someone between me and God to ask for forgiveness.
If I pray sincerely with an intention not to sin again and I should feel guilty, God will absolutely forgive me.''

We both agree with The Bible that sincere repentance is necessary for receiving God's forgiveness. What you do not explain is how God can forgive you without compromising His holy justice. We Sin against God>>>Judgment by God>>>There is a deserved Penalty-Death If sin is not judged and paid for justice has not been done. God is just. If He were not completely and always just He would no longer be God, would He?
In Psalm 85 we read -
10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
11 Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.

This speaks of the death of Christ, whether it was a cross, a stake, whatever is not what is important. What is important is that it's the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that makes possible for God to be just and merciful. The Lord was there in my place, I go free, I am pardoned. Praise His holy name!
Go well brother man
><>

I read the Pslam 85 and he explanation. I understood it's after rerun from salvation. It means the Allah accepted Israelis repentance. It was before crucifixion (according to your belief)
i.e. before and without sacrifice

You are absolutely right God is The Just always, If not then he is not God, your words should be written with gold and taught in schools "If He were not completely and always just He would no longer be God, would He?"

You said "the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that makes possible for God to be just and merciful"
What you are saying , "God was not Just and Merciful before sacrifice if Jesus Christ ". Right

If we apply your golden rule "If He were not completely and always just He would no longer be God, would He?"

Then God is no longer be God

 

[Limo]

I don't write much here but at least I know what I have written.

I said I do not believe it to be taken literally, to do so is absurd and horrific,
I did not say it was evil.

Stoning a person to death,
what will that say?
Hurling stones or rocks at that person until there is no breath of Life in them?

Here is where the "evil" part kicks in, only one who is following their own evil inclination
would be capable of commiting such an act.

I could give you one explanation but I doubt if it would be recieved well.


I was reminded of a verse from Psalms 50,

But to the wicked God said,
"What does it help you to discuss My laws,
and take My covenant upon your lips?"

you said about stoning "But such is the condition of man we are born with an evil inclination," I understood you're talking about stoning. If not, No problem

 

[Limo]

It is not changing the subject it is line with how some or many act, from different religions.

Good, Please give us some acts from Judaism

 

[Robban]

you said about stoning "But such is the condition of man we are born with an evil inclination," I understood you're talking about stoning. If not, No problem

Not just stoning, coming to realization.
Nothing just happens.
Becoming angry is a form of idolworship.

Vengance- If when carving meat you cut your hand,
does the hand that is cut attack the hand holding the knife?

 

[Robban]

Good, Please give us some acts from Judaism

Not so good,
Example-Sadducees.

 

[afishamongmany]

Limo said,
Ameeeen
"I read the Pslam 85 and he explanation. I understood it's after rerun from salvation. It means the Allah accepted Israelis repentance. It was before crucifixion (according to your belief)
i.e. before and without sacrifice"
Good morning Limo,
The inspired words of Psalm 85 are a prophecy of what God was going to do many hundreds of years later when Christ gave His life. The Sacrifice of God's lamb (Jesus) was effective for all eternity and time, time past, time future. The crucifixion is the center of His Story. Repentant sinners from Adam onward received their pardon on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.

You are absolutely right God is The Just always, If not then he is not God, your words should be written with gold and taught in schools "If He were not completely and always just He would no longer be God, would He?"

You said "the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that makes possible for God to be just and merciful"
What you are saying , "God was not Just and Merciful before sacrifice if Jesus Christ ". Right

No wrong! God is God is Just, always and ever. This is why He came to us, so that as one of us, He could perfectly pay the the penalty that his justice required. Thus pardon is freely and justly available to all who will accept it.

If we apply your golden rule "If He were not completely and always just He would no longer be God, would He?"
Then God is no longer be God
But, halleluia, He is, always and ever. By His grace and mercy there is pardon and eternal life because He tasted death for us, halleluia!
It's been good to talk. I hope your day goes well. May indeed His Spirit guide us into and in all truth.
><>

 

[withwonderingawe]

Hello again
Ameeeen

I read the Pslam 85 and he explanation. I understood it's after rerun from salvation. It means the Allah accepted Israelis repentance. It was before crucifixion (according to your belief)
i.e. before and without sacrifice

You are absolutely right God is The Just always, If not then he is not God, your words should be written with gold and taught in schools "If He were not completely and always just He would no longer be God, would He?"

You said "the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that makes possible for God to be just and merciful"
What you are saying , "God was not Just and Merciful before sacrifice if Jesus Christ ". Right

If we apply your golden rule "If He were not completely and always just He would no longer be God, would He?"

Then God is no longer be God

First you can not pull one line out and build a doctrine around it, it does not represent the whole of God’s word.

1 Lord, thou hast been favourable unto thy land: thou hast brought back the captivity of Jacob.
2 Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.
3 Thou hast taken away all thy wrath: thou hast turned thyself from the fierceness of thine anger.

But then he writes

4 Turn us, O God of our salvation, and cause thine anger toward us to cease.
5 Wilt thou be angry with us for ever? wilt thou draw out thine anger to all generations?
6 Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?

You are first looking at this as group repentance and that does not happen.

The writer was using a ‘type and a shadow’ like an allegory cursing. As an example Pharaoh was going to kill all of the first born of Israel but the curse was reversed and the first born of Egypt died. Jacob’s sons were sinners, they sold their brother into slavery. In this case God visited the iniquity upon the heads of the children and they were brought into captivity in Egypt. 400 years later the Lord brings them out of captivity and back to their own lands.

The writer is pleading as you led your people out of Egypt please turn your anger away from us once again.

But This was never about the salvation of the individual soul. The individual person is not responsible for the sins of Jacob’s sons they just bore the brunt of the consequences of living in Egypt.

In Eze 18 the Lord takes Israel to task for believing in this group sinning, of believing the sins of the father are passed to the children.

1 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

The concept is that when you eat a sour grape your lips pucker up, that’s a western idiom. The proverb says because the father sinned the children suffer and are considered sinners also.

But Ezekiel is being told; say this falsehood no more

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die… The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

Secondly Jesus was the “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” he was preordained to be the lamb (see 1 Peter 19:20 & Rev 13:8)

Isaiah 53 is a prophecy about the future sacrifice of Jesus and it is written in a form of future and past tenses

“For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant…and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.”

He will come at some future time and we will reject him. Then he slips into the past tense

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows…But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed….

Then future tense
….by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities….

And then past tense again;
…because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

In God’s knowledge of the end from the beginning the sacrifice of Jesus was always in play.

Abraham could be forgiven because in the future Jesus would make the sacrifice for his sins. When Abraham took his son up to the mountain to sacrifice him he say to him “My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering” and then after Abraham shows how much faith he has by being willing to sacrifice his own son the Lord provides a ram in the thicket.

Once again this is a ‘type and shadow’. The thicket is the world and God provided his own son to be the lamb. He was the last great and infinite sacrifice to pay for the sins of the all of mankind.

 

[Limo]

Limo said,
Ameeeen
"I read the Pslam 85 and he explanation. I understood it's after rerun from salvation. It means the Allah accepted Israelis repentance. It was before crucifixion (according to your belief)
i.e. before and without sacrifice"
Good morning Limo,
The inspired words of Psalm 85 are a prophecy of what God was going to do many hundreds of years later when Christ gave His life. The Sacrifice of God's lamb (Jesus) was effective for all eternity and time, time past, time future. The crucifixion is the center of His Story. Repentant sinners from Adam onward received their pardon on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.

You are absolutely right God is The Just always, If not then he is not God, your words should be written with gold and taught in schools "If He were not completely and always just He would no longer be God, would He?"

You said "the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that makes possible for God to be just and merciful"
What you are saying , "God was not Just and Merciful before sacrifice if Jesus Christ ". Right

No wrong! God is God is Just, always and ever. This is why He came to us, so that as one of us, He could perfectly pay the the penalty that his justice required. Thus pardon is freely and justly available to all who will accept it.

If we apply your golden rule "If He were not completely and always just He would no longer be God, would He?"
Then God is no longer be God
But, halleluia, He is, always and ever. By His grace and mercy there is pardon and eternal life because He tasted death for us, halleluia!
It's been good to talk. I hope your day goes well. May indeed His Spirit guide us into and in all truth.
><>

Good afternoon
If the crucifixion as act of sacrifice of Jesus is the center of His Story, It should have been exposed clearly and without any ambiguity in all books of OT at least
The Jews should be expecting the sacrifice but they were expecting the Messiah
Nothing in OT about Crucifixion except for "anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse"

 

[LoAmmi]

Good afternoon
If the crucifixion as act of sacrifice of Jesus is the center of His Story, It should have been exposed clearly and without any ambiguity in all books of OT at least
The Jews should be expecting the sacrifice but they were expecting the Messiah
Nothing in OT about Crucifixion except for "anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse"

I would point out that we Jews have a completely different interpretation of Isaiah 53 and I can't say I believe in any "type" or "shadow" as that seems to just be a way to justify things that don't really line up.

 

[afishamongmany]

[QUOTE="Limo, post: 69024565, member: 382297"]If the crucifixion as act of sacrifice of Jesus is the center of His Story, It should have been exposed clearly and without any ambiguity in all books of OT at least
The Jews should be expecting the sacrifice but they were expecting the Messiah
Nothing in OT about Crucifixion except for "anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse"[/QUOTE]

Good morning Limo,
Hey look, it is not for you and me to tell God how He should have done things. In the Old Testament the New Testament is concealed. In The New Testament the Old Testament is revealed. This was God's idea so it's ok with me. In the Old Testament there are many, many foretellings of Christ's coming and His sacrifice. The first promise is when God tells Satan that a descendant of Eve would bruise his head and he (Satan) would bruise his heel, Genesis chpt3 verse 15.

Proverbs chpt25 says, "2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
The Lord Jesus often quotes the Old Testament and tells how it speaks of him.
Go well, go carefully
><>

 

[afishamongmany]

I would point out that we Jews have a completely different interpretation of Isaiah 53 and I can't say I believe in any "type" or "shadow" as that seems to just be a way to justify things that don't really line up.

Hi there LoAmmi,
I've just started to reread Hosea so I was reminded of you. What a wonderful promise verse 10 of chpt1,
"And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, children of the living God."

Could you sketch out for us your interpretation of Isaiah 53?
I remember many years ago a group of us (then young people) did a dramatic reading (with actions and acting) of this chapter in church. Then there is Handel's wonderful 'interpretation' in his use of lines from the chapter in his "Messiah".
><>

 

[Limo]

Good morning Limo,
Hey look, it is not for you and me to tell God how He should have done things. In the Old Testament the New Testament is concealed. In The New Testament the Old Testament is revealed. This was God's idea so it's ok with me.

Good morning Afish,
Totally agree, It's neither me nor you to tell Allah what to say or what to do. Allah told us with some rules he has cut it on himself. As he is the Just, he's not going to punish without a warning or a message. Allah said in Quran " 17:15 "
Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger."

In the Old Testament there are many, many foretellings of Christ's coming and His sacrifice. The first promise is when God tells Satan that a descendant of Eve would bruise his head and he (Satan) would bruise his heel, Genesis chpt3 verse 15.

Proverbs chpt25 says, "2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
The Lord Jesus often quotes the Old Testament and tells how it speaks of him.
Go well, go carefully
><>

I agree that Allah foretold in Torah about prophets the Messiah and Mohamed (I know you disagree but it's there) but not the sacrifice and the savior.
We may discuss it later, Excuse may I don't intend to make you angry but it's a discussion, the savior religion is copied from previous pagan relegiouns

 

[Percivale]

Regardless if It's paracletos or pericletos .
Why it's translated to (Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor—Counselor, Strengthener, Standby) in addition to Spirit of the Truth?
It should have been translated directly without doubt in all translations to Holy Spirit.
Right?
So, there is some logic behind the Islamic interpretation of this word as prophet Mohamed.

God is referred to by many names. As a Muslim you should know this. He is the Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter. The first chapter of Acts makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is the one Jesus was talking about, the one who is the Spirit of Truth and the Comforter.

If prophet Mohamed picked up lot of Christian legends, why he chose not to agree with Trinity and crucifixion?
If he would have done and accepted without challenge, he would have been named as the greatest saint all over christian history. right?

Many Christian legends were wrong; they were just made up; one that is in the Quran is one where Jesus makes clay birds and then gives them life. But only God can give life, right?

Mohamed has glorified Jesus and his mother better than any one else. I'll give you one example:-
- Gospels are saying that Mariam traveled away with her engagement Joseph and came back after birth of the child pertaining that Jesus is son of Joseph otherwise people will accuse her with adulteration. right???

This is the biggest insult to Jesus and his mother Mariam for the following reasons:
- It means that Mariam lied on all people
- Some close relatives and neighbors should have known that Mariam was pregnant before marriage, i.e. they believed that she has done the big sin adulteration
- The child grown up believe that Joseph is his father but he's not

If you agree I'll tell you how prophet Mohamed glorified Jesus?

That's one way of looking at it, but if Mary really became pregnant because of a miracle, not through immorality, then it is most respectful to believe that.

Yeeh, I feed up with this question.
Internet is full of answers

I understand that is is an annoying question, but the best way to defeat it is with clear answers. Could you point me to a website that has good answers for it? I just want to know the truth, and will accept it with an open mind.

There are true books revealed to prophets. this we should believe in it.
Allah told that these books have been changed/decreased/increased by people of the books.

Can you tell me how you know that the books have been changed? Does it say so in the Quran?

 

[LoAmmi]

Hi there LoAmmi,
I've just started to reread Hosea so I was reminded of you. What a wonderful promise verse 10 of chpt1,
"And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, children of the living God."

Yes, the return of the exiles, who were called not my people (loammi) earlier in Hosea, is an amazing promise.

Could you sketch out for us your interpretation of Isaiah 53?
.
><>

Isaiah 53, like the rest of servant songs, is about Israel ( or rather those who keep the Torah and are loyal to HaShem) not the Messiah. Isaiah identifies the servant as Israel no less than four times in the surrounding chapters of Isaiah and there is absolutely no indication that the servant has changed in chapter 53. Remember that there were zero chapters in the original text, so there's no reason to separate it from the rest of Isaiah.

Here is a write up I like on Isaiah 53. Goes into the language used and goes into chapter 52 and 54 to give the context.

 

[Limo]

God is referred to by many names. As a Muslim you should know this. He is the Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter. The first chapter of Acts makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is the one Jesus was talking about, the one who is the Spirit of Truth and the Comforter.

True that God has many names as well as attributes.
In your case, you've only 3 names Father,or Son, or Holy Spirit.
paracletos or pericletos is neither a name nor an attribute in addition It's not related to Holy Spirit by any mean.
Even paracletos or pericletos can't be translated to Spirit of Truth
In general, It's talking about someone/perspm who is going to tell the truth about Jesus and glorify him.

Many Christian legends were wrong; they were just made up; one that is in the Quran is one where Jesus makes clay birds and then gives them life. But only God can give life, right?

I was responding to the allegations that prophet Mohamed has learnt Christianity and Judaism, If he's a false prophet and wants to gain more followers, then it would be better for him to gain Christian acceptance be agree on Trinity and Crucifixion.
Jesus and all prophets when they do miracles it's from Allah not from them. Moses also raised a man from death. Ibrahim called birds after they were cut into pieces.
All of these are done from Allah and it doesn't say they were gods.

The good point here, If prophet Mohamed is a false prophet, he wouldn't tell about this miracle as it supports others point of view (Jesus is God or Son of God). He doesn't speak from his own. Allah puts his words in his mouth.

That's one way of looking at it, but if Mary really became pregnant because of a miracle, not through immorality, then it is most respectful to believe that.

She was virgin when she became pregnant. Gospels doesn't cover this, It tells about covering the issue by pertaining engagement with Joseph and go to Egypt and came back with a child.
It's clear in Mat 1:1-20 it's talking about a child grown up under false father.
Also, Joseph intended to cover the shame of Mariam being pregnant before marriage "And Joseph her [promised] husband, being a just and righteous man and not wanting to expose her publicly to shame, planned to send her away and divorce her quietly"
until it's said that an Angel came to Joseph and told that it's from Allah. What about close relatives and neighbors. It means that Jesus grown up in a big lie.
The Jesus and Mariam needed someone to glorify them from this shame.

I understand that is is an annoying question, but the best way to defeat it is with clear answers. Could you point me to a website that has good answers for it? I just want to know the truth, and will accept it with an open mind.

This question is always on the table of any discussion regardless of what we're saying. I feel even people don't read the responses.
This is one of the comprehensive answer for not only these 2 verses but other ones and Hadith as well http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-262-3441.htm
In summary, Quran guides Moslem to how to deal with all situations War as well as Peace. How to deal with Peacful Non-Moselms and Warier. The second verse is talking about Wariers. One of the best schoolers all over history of Isalm said :
"The term “people” here is not referring to all humanity. Ibn Taymiyah says: “It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant.” [Majmû` al-Fatâwâ (19/20)]"
Allah says 9-10: “Allah forbids you not with regard to those who neither fight against you for your faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them, for Allah loves those who are just.”
Also, verses for war all the time is talking about "People, who" it doesn't mean individuals, It's talking about fighting regimes not individuals.

Can you tell me how you know that the books have been changed? Does it say so in the Quran?

Several types of changes : distort, change, alter, displace, forget
between brackets for different translations
Quran 5:14 "And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot (neglected, abandoned)
a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do."

Quran 5:13: "So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort (change, altered) words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded..."

Quran: 4:46 "Of the Jews there are those who displace (pervert, displace, distort) words from their (right) places"

Quran 2:75 :"Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort ( perverted, change, altered) the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?"

 

[afishamongmany]

Yes, the return of the exiles, who were called not my people (loammi) earlier in Hosea, is an amazing promise.


Isaiah 53, like the rest of servant songs, is about Israel ( or rather those who keep the Torah and are loyal to HaShem) not the Messiah. Isaiah identifies the servant as Israel no less than four times in the surrounding chapters of Isaiah and there is absolutely no indication that the servant has changed in chapter 53. Remember that there were zero chapters in the original text, so there's no reason to separate it from the rest of Isaiah.

Here is a write up I like on Isaiah 53. Goes into the language used and goes into chapter 52 and 54 to give the context.

Ok but looks like the link didn't get into the post. I'd be interested to have it.
Reading through this portion of Isaiah (notice I don't give it a chpt number ) its seems to me difficult to understand it as speaking of 'a people' and not of an individual person.
verse 8"By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who [among them] considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke [was due]?"
In what way were Israel the people "cut off out of the land of the living"?
How does the 'death' of Israel bear upon "their transgressions"?
Is verse 9 a true description of Israel the people?
I'm also interested to know your take on my question to Limo about how God's justice and mercy are reconciled without compromise.
Happy 'holy days' to you
><>

 

[afishamongmany]

Good morning Afish,
Totally agree, It's neither me nor you to tell Allah what to say or what to do. Allah told us with some rules he has cut it on himself. As he is the Just, he's not going to punish without a warning or a message. Allah said in Quran " 17:15 "
Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger."




I agree that Allah foretold in Torah about prophets the Messiah and Mohamed (I know you disagree but it's there) but not the sacrifice and the savior.
We may discuss it later, Excuse may I don't intend to make you angry but it's a discussion, the savior religion is copied from previous pagan relegiouns

No problem Limo, it's not anger I feel in our discussions (but sometimes sadness ).
Discussion is good and useful but in the end it comes down to, where will you put your trust and in whom will you trust.
I trust this word and the person it speaks of -
"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, ..."
Letter to the Hebrews chpt 1

Happy holy days to you and yours,
><>

 

[withwonderingawe]

True that God has many names as well as attributes.
In your case, you've only 3 names Father,or Son, or Holy Spirit.
paracletos or pericletos is neither a name nor an attribute in addition It's not related to Holy Spirit by any mean.
Even paracletos or pericletos can't be translated to Spirit of Truth
In general, It's talking about someone/perspm who is going to tell the truth about Jesus and glorify him.


I was responding to the allegations that prophet Mohamed has learnt Christianity and Judaism, If he's a false prophet and wants to gain more followers, then it would be better for him to gain Christian acceptance be agree on Trinity and Crucifixion.
Jesus and all prophets when they do miracles it's from Allah not from them. Moses also raised a man from death. Ibrahim called birds after they were cut into pieces.
All of these are done from Allah and it doesn't say they were gods.

The good point here, If prophet Mohamed is a false prophet, he wouldn't tell about this miracle as it supports others point of view (Jesus is God or Son of God). He doesn't speak from his own. Allah puts his words in his mouth.



She was virgin when she became pregnant. Gospels doesn't cover this, It tells about covering the issue by pertaining engagement with Joseph and go to Egypt and came back with a child.
It's clear in Mat 1:1-20 it's talking about a child grown up under false father.
Also, Joseph intended to cover the shame of Mariam being pregnant before marriage "And Joseph her [promised] husband, being a just and righteous man and not wanting to expose her publicly to shame, planned to send her away and divorce her quietly"
until it's said that an Angel came to Joseph and told that it's from Allah. What about close relatives and neighbors. It means that Jesus grown up in a big lie.
The Jesus and Mariam needed someone to glorify them from this shame.



This question is always on the table of any discussion regardless of what we're saying. I feel even people don't read the responses.
This is one of the comprehensive answer for not only these 2 verses but other ones and Hadith as well http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-262-3441.htm
In summary, Quran guides Moslem to how to deal with all situations War as well as Peace. How to deal with Peacful Non-Moselms and Warier. The second verse is talking about Wariers. One of the best schoolers all over history of Isalm said :
"The term “people” here is not referring to all humanity. Ibn Taymiyah says: “It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant.” [Majmû` al-Fatâwâ (19/20)]"
Allah says 9-10: “Allah forbids you not with regard to those who neither fight against you for your faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them, for Allah loves those who are just.”
Also, verses for war all the time is talking about "People, who" it doesn't mean individuals, It's talking about fighting regimes not individuals.


Several types of changes : distort, change, alter, displace, forget
between brackets for different translations
Quran 5:14 "And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot (neglected, abandoned)
a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do."

Quran 5:13: "So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort (change, altered) words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded..."

Quran: 4:46 "Of the Jews there are those who displace (pervert, displace, distort) words from their (right) places"

Quran 2:75 :"Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort ( perverted, change, altered) the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?"

Limo said; It means that Jesus grown up in a big lie.

First Mary's Aunt Elizabeth knew, if she knew then so did most of the rest of her family. Elizabeth's pregnancy in her old age was a sign to the family "For with God nothing shall be impossible". Second when Jesus was 12 he went to the temple and taught the priest, his parents came looking for him and he said, shouldn't I be about my Father's business? He knew who he was and what his future mission would be.

 

[withwonderingawe]

True that God has many names as well as attributes.
In your case, you've only 3 names Father,or Son, or Holy Spirit.
paracletos or pericletos is neither a name nor an attribute in addition It's not related to Holy Spirit by any mean.
Even paracletos or pericletos can't be translated to Spirit of Truth
In general, It's talking about someone/perspm who is going to tell the truth about Jesus and glorify him.


I was responding to the allegations that prophet Mohamed has learnt Christianity and Judaism, If he's a false prophet and wants to gain more followers, then it would be better for him to gain Christian acceptance be agree on Trinity and Crucifixion.
Jesus and all prophets when they do miracles it's from Allah not from them. Moses also raised a man from death. Ibrahim called birds after they were cut into pieces.
All of these are done from Allah and it doesn't say they were gods.

The good point here, If prophet Mohamed is a false prophet, he wouldn't tell about this miracle as it supports others point of view (Jesus is God or Son of God). He doesn't speak from his own. Allah puts his words in his mouth.



She was virgin when she became pregnant. Gospels doesn't cover this, It tells about covering the issue by pertaining engagement with Joseph and go to Egypt and came back with a child.
It's clear in Mat 1:1-20 it's talking about a child grown up under false father.
Also, Joseph intended to cover the shame of Mariam being pregnant before marriage "And Joseph her [promised] husband, being a just and righteous man and not wanting to expose her publicly to shame, planned to send her away and divorce her quietly"
until it's said that an Angel came to Joseph and told that it's from Allah. What about close relatives and neighbors. It means that Jesus grown up in a big lie.
The Jesus and Mariam needed someone to glorify them from this shame.



This question is always on the table of any discussion regardless of what we're saying. I feel even people don't read the responses.
This is one of the comprehensive answer for not only these 2 verses but other ones and Hadith as well http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-262-3441.htm
In summary, Quran guides Moslem to how to deal with all situations War as well as Peace. How to deal with Peacful Non-Moselms and Warier. The second verse is talking about Wariers. One of the best schoolers all over history of Isalm said :
"The term “people” here is not referring to all humanity. Ibn Taymiyah says: “It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant.” [Majmû` al-Fatâwâ (19/20)]"
Allah says 9-10: “Allah forbids you not with regard to those who neither fight against you for your faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them, for Allah loves those who are just.”
Also, verses for war all the time is talking about "People, who" it doesn't mean individuals, It's talking about fighting regimes not individuals.


Several types of changes : distort, change, alter, displace, forget
between brackets for different translations
Quran 5:14 "And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot (neglected, abandoned)
a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do."

Quran 5:13: "So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort (change, altered) words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded..."

Quran: 4:46 "Of the Jews there are those who displace (pervert, displace, distort) words from their (right) places"

Quran 2:75 :"Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort ( perverted, change, altered) the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?"

I agree very much that we all misunderstand scripture and yes scripture has been "distort (change, altered)" 1John 5:7 would be a good example but the Qumran has too. At this website they give 7 different rendition of the Qumran

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=171

This is the 171st verse of chapter 4
Sahih International:
“Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.”

And then compare to Arberry’s
Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian."

Arberry seems to be implying that it glorifies Allah to have a son.

" These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee" John 17:1

The whole verse is about the virgin birth
"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him."

You have to understand that I don't accept the Trinity it is a distorting of the scriptures but so is the rejection of Jesus as the Son of God.

I believe Allah/Elohim is the supreme God and Yahweh is his first born of the spirit and that He became Jesus. When I read Arberry's translation I agree with it.