• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Theistic Evolution

elopez

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2010
2,503
92
Lansing, MI
✟25,706.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I don't see that.
The earth might have been hit by some smaller planets. Adversary effects? So what?
I've explained it. So it contradicts a litleral reading of Genesis. You have to neglect science for that reading. You are in fact neglecting it, as you've not even addressed anything I have said, and instead keep saying "So what?"

If the sun did not have as much mass it does and has have had for awhile, and was a protostar when earth was formed, there woukd not be enough gravity for earth to orbit it. All the other outer planets like Jupiter would have too much mass and float out too.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,211
52,660
Guam
✟5,153,785.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Try telling that to other YEC's. They will argue tooth and nail that's what day means.
You have an interesting avatar, in light of the fact that I believe science today is a form of witchcraft.
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
73
Chicago
✟138,626.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I've explained it. So it contradicts a litleral reading of Genesis. You have to neglect science for that reading. You are in fact neglecting it, as you've not even addressed anything I have said, and instead keep saying "So what?"

If the sun did not have as much mass it does and has have had for awhile, and was a protostar when earth was formed, there woukd not be enough gravity for earth to orbit it. All the other outer planets like Jupiter would have too much mass and float out too.

How about the protosun already have 90% of its mass? Would that be enough to keep the orbit of the earth and other planets?
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
73
Chicago
✟138,626.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Try telling that to other YEC's. They will argue tooth and nail that's what day means.

This could be another issue about time. May be in God's Kingdom it was really 24 hours. Do you think God's time scale is different from out time scale? If so, then what is the problem?
 
Upvote 0

elopez

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2010
2,503
92
Lansing, MI
✟25,706.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
How about the protosun already have 90% of its mass? Would that be enough to keep the orbit of the earth and other planets?
That was not the case though, unless you have concrete evidence that says otherwise.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,658.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
And my advice to you,-57, is to not just focus on a partial reading of my points. I spelled very clearly in post 191 the hard evidence why Genesis consists of two contradictory accounts. If you wish to provide a rational rebuttal, if you can, fine, but make sure you carefully read what my case is. I specifically addressed why your pluperfect theory of Genesis falls flat on its face. I specifically addressed this issue about "had." There is not HAD there, period. If read in HAD, you are seriously mistranslating and mistreating the text. Also, this bit about Paul being a "liar." Such a comment betrays your total ignorance of the material at hand. Without even having looked at a major , such as Von Rad, mandatory reading in most OT seminary courses, you feel it is your place to sit in judgment on them. Having gone through seminary, I can well assure you that with your negative attitude, you would be lucky to last a day there. That's how far off your thinking is from solid biblical scholarship.

And while we are on the subject of Paul? Can you explain to me his real itinerary, how many pilgrimages he made to Jerusalem? You see, we scholars have a bit of a sticky wicket here. Acts says he made five such pilgrimages. Galatians-Romans give only three. Again, it has proved impossible explain away this contradiction. So, since you know so much more about it than the scholars do, and are such a better Christian they are, suppose you dazzle us with the great brightness of your intellect and get busy and tell us just how many pilgrimages he did make? Frankly, I think he solution is that Paul either forgot just how many he made or deliberately omitted mentioning them for some unknown reason.
You made two additional blatantly false statements. You spoke of reading commentaries, right? You claim you know some that will support you, right? Well, what are they? If you knew anything about graduate study, you would that that is what we do, read commentaries until you are blue in the face. The other way-off assumption you make is that we are reading the Bible through the lens of evolution. That is totally incorrect, because what we are doing is reading the Bible though the lens of a careful linguistic analysis. Greened, everyone reads though Scripture though one lens or another. nobody comes to Scripture with a totally blank mind. So the question is: Just what lens are you reading Scripture though and how valid is it? Correct me if I am wrong, but it does seem you are reading Scripture though the lens of the inerrancy theory. OK, but then you have to rebut my case that this theory is incorrect. If you want, go ahead. But you will need to go through my case, point by point, showing a relational rebuttal, or an attempt thereof, for each of them. I think part of your discomfiture what I and others are saying comes from the fact you are coming here as a lay person. Nothing wrong with that. However, as such, you need to respect the fact that the world of biblical studies and theology is a whole different world, a wholly different ballgame from the world of the laity. It's rules are very different, its priorities are very different, etc. I realize that many laity hold with the inerrancy theory, the notion that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened exactly the Bible says. Fine for laity. Doesn't work a bit in the world of serous scholarship. We want to come to scripture more open-minded. Maybe it is inerrant, maybe not. Let us see. And, no, we definitely do not look at Scripture the lens evolution. We do, however, want to look at Scripture in terms of a very detained literary analysis, as I mentioned. That means biblical scholars are fluent in Hebrew and Greek. Now stop right there. With absolutely no knowledge of biblical languages, you would not seen, right off the bat as totally unqualified to sit in judgment n the scholars who may very well disagree with your preconceived-of notions. So, when you feel the urge to flail biblical scholars, ask your self just how much Hebrew do you know, how much education have you had in biblical archaeology, how much ability you have t discriminate earlier form later forms of the linguistic style of the text, how sensitive you are to picking up on sutle changes of style, etc.

I tried to get through your better than thou ramble and rhetoric....and your HAD example still fails. I have never seen a contradiction that didn't have a possible answer. Some apparent contradiction even have several probable answers. I also doubt your contradictions really are contradiction but rather borrowed from some bible hating site.
There are scholars "fluent in Hebrew and Greek" as you put it who come to diffferent conclusions. Do you honestly think the interpreters who understood HAD should be there understood it to be that way without reason?
If the bible is riddled with all these contradictions you insert...then what good is it?
The problem for bible changers like you is that when you make one change...you now open up several other contradictions. Concerning Moses and what Moses wrote..that what you doubt.....there is much proof that squarely stands before your scholary work. Click here.
 
Upvote 0

Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.
Mar 4, 2009
8,464
597
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
At the risk of repeating myself, theistic evolution is a philosophical interpretation of a scientific theory.
If Theistic Evolution is a philosophical interpretation, then it's a philosophical theory and not a scientific theory.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
If Theistic Evolution is a philosophical interpretation, then it's a philosophical theory and not a scientific theory.

That's why scientists don't use the theory of theistic evolution. They use the theory of evolution, which is scientific.

They also don't use the theory of theistic gravitation, theistic quantum mechanics, theistic thermodynamics, theistic germ theory, or any other theistic religious belief that has God acting through nature in an undetectable way.
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟119,577.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
If Theistic Evolution is a philosophical interpretation, then it's a philosophical theory and not a scientific theory.

Evolution is a scientific theory.

Putting a philosophical interpretation on something is, um, philosophy.

Satisfied?
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟102,963.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Well no doubt that earth rotated slower in the past. Even 250 million years ago the day length would have been 22.82 hours. I mean the Earth's rotation does come from the initial tendency to rotate, imparted on it when it formed, but the only factor to slow thse rotation down is the tidal forces from the moon.
You mean rotate faster? Because day lengths would only be lower with a faster rotation.
 
Upvote 0

elopez

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2010
2,503
92
Lansing, MI
✟25,706.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I don't. But that is a scientific possibility which would make the Gen 1 literally true.
Exactly. You're just making up some 90% number. We do not know too much about the sun as a protostar. But what is known is that as a protostar it needed a certain amount of mass to begin nuclear fusion, to begin the next phase of it's life cycle. A protostar grows by accretion, acquiring mass from its surrounding envelope of interstellar dust and gas. And that happens for quite some time. Not only in the pre-main-sequence phase does a star reach it's final mass, and not the protostar phase as you said earlier. That said, it may not be scientifically possible for the sun as a protostar to have had 90% of it's mass then, as that would also mean it could generate power so much that gravity woukd not contain the internal pressure. Such stars blow themselves apart and do not exist for long, if at all.
 
Upvote 0

Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.
Mar 4, 2009
8,464
597
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Evolution is a scientific theory.

Putting a philosophical interpretation on something is, um, philosophy.

Satisfied?
That's why I said earlier that Theistic Evolution is not scientific, it's a theistic interpretation.

Theistic Evolution postulates that God is the cause of Evolution. It postulates cause and effect without even trying to establish an empirical link between the cause and effect. That makes it unscientific.
 
Upvote 0

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Good point about theistic evolution. I should know, I would easily fit in to that category. So, speaking from the inside, yes, my assumptions are heavily based on speculative metaphysics. I don't care what anyone says, science is great, but, by it's very nature, is not at all equipped to deal with the question of God. However, in systematic theology, we make a real effort to harmonize theology with the best scientific data. I draw upon evolution, in my thinking about God, and have concluded that creation is God's own self-evolution from unconsciousness into consciousness and self-actualization. Now, stop? Can I prove that scientifically? Could I or someone ever prove that scientifically? Absolutely no. I would be the first to admit that. As I say, I don't believe science has all the answers, and therefore some real degree of metaphysical (meaning "beyond physics") speculation is absolutely essential in theology.
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟119,577.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
So we agree Theistic Evolution is not scientific.

Cool. :oldthumbsup:

It is more scientific than creationism. It does not need endless special pleading, and endless ad hoc hypotheses, in order to make creationism seem half way credible even to creationists themselves.
 
Upvote 0

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I hear you, -57. I think you are laboring under a serious misconception about what I am saying. So let me be a bit clearer.

I brought up the "had" issue, because a favorite defense used by online, anti-intellectual self-styed apologists is to argue that the contradiction could be explained away by translating Gen. 2 in the pluperfect tense. Therefore these apologists, with absolutely no knowledge of Hebrew, are arrogant enough to try and invalidate all biblical scholarship and all available English-language translations of the Bible. Why? Hebrew 101: There is no pluperfect tense in Hebrew, period, end of it. The scholars know this, the clergy know this, and the translators well know this, all the way back to the 16 century. That is why absolutely no major English-language translation of the Bible ever translate Gen. 2 in the pluperfect. Too bad many self-styled online apologists don't isn't it? Hence, this pluperfect defense hits the dirt day one in Hebrew 101.

I am not working out of some "Bible-hating" sites. I trust very little of is said online about the Bible and other related issues. Rather, I am working out of contemporary biblical scholarship.

If you feel strongly, as you apparently do, that these contradictions can be explained away, have at it. Don't just tell, show how to resolve these contradictions. However, I world encourage you to first review what has ben attempted and why al these attempts have failed. What use is the Bible if it has errors? Many Christians view the Bible as valuable and revelatory, despite its numerous contradictions and poor geophysics. Treasure in broken vessels.
 
Upvote 0