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Theistic Evolution

Hoghead1

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Interesting points! On my end of it, I consider divine omnipotence a major theological mistake and also unbiblical. I view God as Cosmic Artist luring, not forcing, us on to higher and higher levels of beauty. I don't know if "failure" is the right word here. Maybe "disappointment" is better. I do know that God can be disappointed because we may not always actualize the creative opportunities for beauty he or she has offered us. Maybe even God can be disappointed by his own creative planning. I don't think God can know what definitely will go down until it happens. God may well push for something that ,open examination, upon full actualization, he or she finds most unsatisfying. Knowledge of plans is one thing; knowledge of the plan fleshed out is something altogether different.

I hold that creation ex nihilo is absolute nonsense. No true creator creates out of nothing. All truly creative work is conditioned by the past, by what is available at the time. God creates the adult out of the child, not out of nothing. God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created the world out of some pre-existent chaos, not out of nothing.



Bearing all this in mind, I turn to a standard attack on evolution, which I se some touching on here. It foes like this: Granted there are loads of similarities among creatures ,granted, for example, the limbic system of the human brain, aka the old brain the lizard brain, the reptile brain. is found throughout the animal kingdom all the way down to reptiles, there still is no evolution. Why? All these obvious similarities are simply due the fact that God likes these designs and so uses them over and over. God doesn't have to, he just is in the mood to. One and the same creator, one and the same preference for one and the same designs. So, human brains resemble those of rats rats, but they are all a separate creation. The human brain did not evolve physical from anything lower. did not evolve physically from lower forms. Same designer, same design.





I reject this view. Why? No designer designs twice. In other words, God, always, in the grip of his own eternal creative advance into novelty, continually comes up with new ideas, rather sticking to the same old plan over and over. So, what's with all the similarities among creatures? How come they do resemble one another?



Occupational necessity in several major ways. As I said, all creators creates out of something preexisted, not out of nothing. That means many features of the preexistent material or entity will automatically physically carry over over into the final product. God always works with the grain. God has no other choice, period, end of it.



But doesn't this mean God is some sort of weakling, feeling deeply frustrated by the way the tyranny of the past blocks his creativity? Absolutely no. That weakling argument is illogical. See, God, as Cosmic Artist, enjoys and welcomes the past physically ingressing into his works. All true beauty demands both uniformity and diversity. All true beauty, no matter how much novelty it includes, demands the incorporation of past elements, so as to attain the necessary uniformity.
 
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lesliedellow

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Interesting points! On my end of it, I consider divine omnipotence a major theological mistake and also unbiblical.

Unbiblical?

"Is anything too hard for the Lord?" (Gen 18.14)

That is just the first which came in to my head, and there are plenty of others where that came from.
 
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Hoghead1

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Yes, yes, I have been there done that, I am well aware of the passages you are speaking of. However, those passages have to be understood as part of the larger drama of the OT,which is that God is like a Father battling to keep control over his unruly and disobedient children. Now, unless you assume God is some sort of highly neurotic personality who likes to inflict pain and disappointment upon himself, it makes sense that he did not intend his children to act this way and could not stop them from so doing. Interestingly enough, Calvin, who championed the notion of omnipotence, opened his first sermon on Micah, Wed., Nov. 12, 1550, page one, by saying: "How hardened is man that he stubbornly refuses to obey God, despite all his prodding, Worse yet, God cannot insure that his word will be received as certain truth, although he has provided sufficient proof and witness." And this is true of many other church fathers. They would claim omnipotence for God and then kill it with a million qualifiers, Thomas, for example, in his"Contra,:" provides a cannot-do list for Good. God cannot experience any negative emotion, God cannot violate the laws of geometry, etc. Let me put it another way. If you believe God is truly omnipotent, can do absolutely anything, can he make a stone so heavy that he cannot move or lift it when he wants to? See, what I mean? Omnipotence is a nonsensical concept
 
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lesliedellow

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If you believe God is truly omnipotent, can do absolutely anything, can he make a stone so heavy that he cannot move or lift it when he wants to?

Oh boy. A stone so heavy that an omnipotent being can't lift it is a self contradictory concept. In other words, it is no concept at all. Therefore the above sentence, although syntactically correct, is semantically meaningless.

I wouldn't like to comment in detail upon the excerpt from Calvin's sermon, without seeing it in context, but I would hazard a guess that it involves the distinction between the decretive and preceptive will of God.
 
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Hoghead1

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Oh, great. You would like to see the entire sermon. Well, you will just have to buy one of my books, as I am the only game in town, the only English translator of Calvin's sermons on Jeremiah and Micah, for which I received two grants, one from the PCUSA and one from the Ameerican Academy of Religion. They could be ordered online. However,they are very expensive , the published has them at about 100 bucks a piece. Typical for academic books, as they don't really sell. And no, I haven't gotten any royalties from them, as with academic books, you generally don't until the sales reach a certain number of copies,.



Regarding the wills issue with Calvin: This is a complex area. Most scholars and critics, then and now, do believe he posited two opposing wills in God , a revealed or benevolent one and a "secret will,"which was responsible for ordaining al the evil in the world. Calvin never really did a god job of integrating these wills. Whenever he received criticism that he had two opposing wills in God, he would fly into a rage, vehemently denying this charge, though providing no real defense, and then let his critics have it via all sorts of name-calling, often with a colorful scatology.



Regarding the stone question, this is a classic attack on omnipotence. Hence, philosophers would not agree with you that it is a silly or some of a non-concept, whatever that is. The point is that it is a real, totally valid question and that any answer you give will invalidate the idea of omnipotence. Hence, it is an irrational idea. Put another way, it could been seen as asking whether God can contradict himself. If you answer no or say this would be some kind of ridiculous paradox God would avoid, well then he cannot very well be omnipotent ,as there is one thing he cannot do and that is contradict himself.
 
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lesliedellow

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Oh, great. You would like to see the entire sermon. Well, you will just have to buy one of my books,

Um sorry, I have just forked out for the 22 volume edition of his commentaries, and, since it is being shipped across the Atlantic, it isn't cheap. So you will just have to join the queue for my hard earned cash.
 
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Doveaman

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On my end of it, I consider divine omnipotence a major theological mistake and also unbiblical.
*I am God, and there is none like Me. I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.*
-- (Isa 46:9-10).

How do you suppose anything less than omnipotence is capable of knowing the end from the beginning and what is still to come?
 
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Hoghead1

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Good question, Doveman. I have several options here. Since I do not hold with the inerrancy of Scripture, I could simply say that this is another case where Scripture is in error, and leave it go at that. Also, I can point to more than one passage which denies God has foreknowledge of the future. One example is Jer. 18, where he speaks about how God deals with the nations. He warns them and then waits to see what happens and the, based on that, takes action. Now if God truly knows everything ahead of time, ten this waiting period would not be necessary. In the case of Sodom, God speaks of his future knowledge as “iffy.” If I find such-and-such men, etc. Also, note that in this story, God initially isn't sure what is happening in Sodom and so has to come down to take a closer look. If God were all-knowing, he certainly would not need to do that. Hence, another option I have is to say here is just another one of the Bible's major contradictions. Another option I have is to suggest that whether or not the Bible attributes fore-knowledge to God,depends upon what specific aspects of the future you are talking about. Seemingly contradictory predicates can be ascribed to any one being, provided they refer to different aspects. In terms of a very specific knowledge of all future events, no. In terms of a more abstract knowledge, yes. I mean, God could very well say I know there is going to be ruble up ahead, given the possibility of encountering trouble always exists; however, I am not sure what. If prophecy is involved, it may be that God is providing it, not as a definite announcement as to what specifically is going to happen, but as a warning that they better get their act together or such-and-such will happen, thereby leaving open the possibility such a future can be avoided.
 
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lesliedellow

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Good question, Doveman. I have several options here. Since I do not hold with the inerrancy of Scripture, I could simply say that this is another case where Scripture is in error, and leave it go at that. Also, I can point to more than one passage which denies God has foreknowledge of the future. One example is Jer. 18, where he speaks about how God deals with the nations. He warns them and then waits to see what happens and the, based on that, takes action. Now if God truly knows everything ahead of time, ten this waiting period would not be necessary. In the case of Sodom, God speaks of his future knowledge as “iffy.” If I find such-and-such men, etc. Also, note that in this story, God initially isn't sure what is happening in Sodom and so has to come down to take a closer look. If God were all-knowing, he certainly would not need to do that. Hence, another option I have is to say here is just another one of the Bible's major contradictions. Another option I have is to suggest that whether or not the Bible attributes fore-knowledge to God,depends upon what specific aspects of the future you are talking about. Seemingly contradictory predicates can be ascribed to any one being, provided they refer to different aspects. In terms of a very specific knowledge of all future events, no. In terms of a more abstract knowledge, yes. I mean, God could very well say I know there is going to be ruble up ahead, given the possibility of encountering trouble always exists; however, I am not sure what. If prophecy is involved, it may be that God is providing it, not as a definite announcement as to what specifically is going to happen, but as a warning that they better get their act together or such-and-such will happen, thereby leaving open the possibility such a future can be avoided.

I get it. You are an open theist.

So according to open theists, the crucifixion was an unfortunate mishap, and couldn't possibly have figured in God's (definite) foreknowledge. I guess that sends the whole of Christian theology down the swanney.
 
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Hoghead1

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Lesliedellow, I have some concerns stemming form your last two emails. I pride myself in being very careful and thoughtful when I write, and I like to think I provided here a solid scholarly assessment of the history of the doctrine of God and some of its problems. I would like to think that there is much solid information,in my comments, that you should read over and mare carefully think about. However, you simply labeled my work a “diatribe.” Now, if that is the low opinion you have of me and my work, just let me know and I will ceased and desist from bothering you with any further emails.

In your second email, no, you did not get it right at all. I am not an open theist. Before you label someone, you should have the courtesy to ask them how they prefer to be labeled. I do have definite affinities with open theism, have had solid online correspondence with Boyd and also Pinnock. However, I would label myself as a process theologian. OK, so what is the difference? We process people, when doing process in the grand style, love to use a highly technical vocabulary loaded with neologisms. We speak of the primordial nature of God, the consequent nature of God, the superjective nature of God, prehensions, eternal objects, concresence, presentational immediacy, causal efficacy, the reformed subjectivist principle, etc. In fact, one major scholar felt the need to publish a dictionary of process terms. To be honest, some scholars have been put off by this. Hence, I will try and speak as non- technically as I can here.

The other main difference concerns how each side sees necessity as related to God. In process, we view most key aspects of God's relationship to the universe as absolute necessities for God. Open theism sees God in a much more condescending relationship to the universe. Most key aspects of God;s relationship to the universe are what God simply condescends to to without any necessity to so do. For example, in process, we hold that God is a social-relational being and therefore has to have a universe in order to be fully God. In open theism, God really doesn't at all need a universe,in order to be happy, whole,m and complete, but condescends to create one anyway and to allow himself to be affected by it.

Next, you state that because there is no foreknowledge of the Crucifixion, theology is sent down the swanney. That offended me as an extremely insensitive remark to make, especially when you know so little about either process or open theism or fully what is involved in the concept of divine foreknowledge or anything really about process christology. If you want to criticize process, fine; but at least take the time to get down what we process people are saying why we are saying it.

As I have stated in previous emails, divine omnipotence,predestination, and foreknowledge are viewed as major theological mistakes. Stated simply, if we have any real degree of genuine freedom, then God cannot decide our decisions for us; we have to do the deciding, and until we do the deciding, the future is open-ended for both ourselves and for God. Claiming that God knows the future as definite is to attribute false knowledge to God. If God has any genuine knowledge of the future, it has to be God as knowing the future as it actually is, a sea of possibilities awaiting actualizing, an actualization that may or may not take place.

Now having so said, I do not understand what exactly your concern is here. I realize some critics have trouble with process because they assume the only God worthy of worship is one who is omnipotent and and has absolute foreknowledge, The process God just seems to small for them. The process response, however, is that their God is too big to be worshiped. Power over powers, participating in the free decision's of others, takes far more skill than being a dictator.

The penal-substitutionary theory of the atonement is rejected by process people such a myself, on the grounds it is arbitrary and unjust. I view the whole Christ-event as a major raising of consciousness to the fact that God is an empathic God who is always with us, always shares in all our joys as well as sorrows, always there whenever someone is justly treated. When you hang an innocent man, you hang Christ . I also view the Incarnation as a revelation of God's general MO with the world, meaning God is incarnate throughout all of creation. The universe is the body of God.
 
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lesliedellow

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, you state that because there is no foreknowledge of the Crucifixion, theology is sent down the swanney. That offended me as an extremely insensitive remark to make, especially when you know so little about either process or open theism or fully what is involved in the concept of divine foreknowledge or anything really about process christology. If you want to criticize process, fine; but at least take the time to get down what we process people are saying why we are saying it.

What I specifically said was that Christian theology goes down the swanney, and you seem only to have confirmed that. To repeat myself, if God does not have foreknowledge, then the crucifixion was something he never intended to happen, and the resurrection was just an attempt to fix an unforeseen disaster. It then follows that the crucifixion and resurrection can have formed no part of a plan of salvation, and you can rip out of any systematic theology the whole section concerning soteriology.

Of course you can build an alternative religion around the figure of Jesus, but you cannot sweep away the central tenets of Christianity and still call the result Christianity.
 
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-57

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What I specifically said was that Christian theology goes down the swanney, and you seem only to have confirmed that. To repeat myself, if God does not have foreknowledge, then the crucifixion was something he never intended to happen, and the resurrection was just an attempt to fix an unforeseen disaster. It then follows that the crucifixion and resurrection can have formed no part of a plan of salvation, and you can rip out of any systematic theology the whole section concerning soteriology.

Of course you can build an alternative religion around the figure of Jesus, but you cannot sweep away the central tenets of Christianity and still call the result Christianity.

You said "Of course you can build an alternative religion around the figure of Jesus, but you cannot sweep away the central tenets of Christianity and still call the result Christianity."

How true. Here is an example...

Many try to sweep away the biblical description of how we have obtained our sin nature..and exchange it for what is not true. Their non-truth changes the reason why Jesus came and died and interrupts Gods foreknowledge. They deny the bible where it says sin and death entered via one man. Typically they claim the entire evolving population rather than two people fell as a result of natural evolution in opposition to a bad choice in the garden....thus creating an alternative religion.
 
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lesliedellow

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Many try to sweep away the biblical description of how we have obtained our sin nature..and exchange it for what is not true. Their non-truth changes the reason why Jesus came and died and interrupts Gods foreknowledge. They deny the bible where it says sin and death entered via one man. Typically they claim the entire evolving population rather than two people fell as a result of natural evolution in opposition to a bad choice in the garden....thus creating an alternative religion

Thanks for your opinion, but I will take my standard of orthodoxy from the Nicene Creed; not from an American creationist.
 
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-57

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Thanks for your opinion, but I will take my standard of orthodoxy from the Nicene Creed; not from an American creationist.

I have no problem with that. In fact the Nicene Creed says "Maker of heaven and earth" ...which agree's with the bible " For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth".
 
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lesliedellow

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I have no problem with that. In fact the Nicene Creed says "Maker of heaven and earth" ...which agree's with the bible " For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth".

If I remember rightly, it was you who told me to read a commentary on Genesis, and, if I remember rightly, I suggested that you might like to take your own advice.
 
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Hoghead1

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OK, gottcha. You raised a good point that touches at the heart of process. In process, the whole emphasis is on adventure, not security and order. God is the ideal model here, the risk-taker of risk-takers. God knows ahead of time that he may may run into unfortunate accidents, that he can be hurt. However, God has the courage to fact the possibility the he can be hurt. Question is: Are you the kind of person who wants only peace and quite, who is content sit at home and enjoy the way your toast comes up, and be satisfied with a pathetic, petty life , or are you going to follow God's lute, go on a great adventure, take risks, allow yourself to maybe get hurt? What are you gong to do, when you come before the throne of God and he asks you: “Have you any interesting snapshots to show me?”



In process soteriology, God saves by turning the tragedy into a triumph, by eliciting as much beauty as he can under the circumstances. Also process stresses a universal salvation. God loves everyone, even the bad guys, and when you love someone, you do not seek to coerce them by threats of severe punishments. Unfortunately, the church, historically, presented a God who says, “Love me or I'll beat the hell out of you.” And this contradictory message one of the main reasons, people leave the church and become atheists.



As I stressed before, the Incarnation is seen as a revelation of God's general MO with creation. Any time you treat someone cruelly and justly, God is there,experiencing all the pain. If you nail an innocent man to a cross, you have nailed up God. The Cross is both a tragedy and a triumph. It is a tragedy in that God was hurt. It is a triumph in that it proclaimers to us that God is always with us.
 
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-57

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In process soteriology, God saves by turning the tragedy into a triumph, by eliciting as much beauty as he can under the circumstances. Also process stresses a universal salvation. God loves everyone, even the bad guys, and when you love someone, you do not seek to coerce them by threats of severe punishments. Unfortunately, the church, historically, presented a God who says, “Love me or I'll beat the hell out of you.” And this contradictory message one of the main reasons, people leave the church and become atheists.

They don't understand...God chooses you. You don't choose God.
 
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