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Theistic Evolution

elopez

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A protostar has most of its stellar mass in place already.
That's not entirely true.

To become a star a mass between 0.08 and 150 Msun is needed. If the mass of a protostar is less than 0.08 Msun it will become a brown dwarf. Some protostars have lower mass and become a red giant. Others have a higher mass and become supergiants. Our sun is in the main sequence phase, and in a billions years worth of time it will become 10% larger than it is now.

Of course, the orbit of a planet would shift during the formation of a star. So what? It won't destroy all the planets.
If the sun were even half it's mass as it is now, it would grow cooler and redder and eventually transform into a red dwarf. Because a red dwarf would give off less heat and light, it would have a smaller habitable zone. If a planet is located far beyond its star’s habitable zone, its water will be frozen.

In the case of our Sun, the habitable zone is roughly 67.4 million miles from the solar surface, and stretches some 211.5 million miles outward. Red dwarfs have habitable zones that start 18.5 million miles in, and stretch a mere 9.3 million miles beyond. Given Earth’s current distance - 93 million miles from the sun - the enivroment and climate our of planet would change in such a dramatic way that it could not support life. All other planets would drift out of the solar system entirely, again as they are simply too massive to be retained by such a meager sun as you suggest.

The duration of day/night should not be a concern (who cares?).
Well this all depends on how and when you think the moon formed. I would guess you would say that the moon was created the same day as the sun. In that case, the rotation of the earth was slower, meaning days and nights would have been shorter. So if you're defining day also as 24 hours, this fact of slower earth rotation would really conflict with that definition.

If the earth was flying away from the sun, would the day/night cycle time become longer and longer?
Earth would not revolve around the sun any more. Eventually we would see an endless night. I mean, there would eventually be no light.
 
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juvenissun

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That's not entirely true.

To become a star a mass between 0.08 and 150 Msun is needed. If the mass of a protostar is less than 0.08 Msun it will become a brown dwarf. Some protostars have lower mass and become a red giant. Others have a higher mass and become supergiants. Our sun is in the main sequence phase, and in a billions years worth of time it will become 10% larger than it is now.

If the sun were even half it's mass as it is now, it would grow cooler and redder and eventually transform into a red dwarf. Because a red dwarf would give off less heat and light, it would have a smaller habitable zone. If a planet is located far beyond its star’s habitable zone, its water will be frozen.

In the case of our Sun, the habitable zone is roughly 67.4 million miles from the solar surface, and stretches some 211.5 million miles outward. Red dwarfs have habitable zones that start 18.5 million miles in, and stretch a mere 9.3 million miles beyond. Given Earth’s current distance - 93 million miles from the sun - the enivroment and climate our of planet would change in such a dramatic way that it could not support life. All other planets would drift out of the solar system entirely, again as they are simply too massive to be retained by such a meager sun as you suggest.


Well this all depends on how and when you think the moon formed. I would guess you would say that the moon was created the same day as the sun. In that case, the rotation of the earth was slower, meaning days and nights would have been shorter. So if you're defining day also as 24 hours, this fact of slower earth rotation would really conflict with that definition.


Earth would not revolve around the sun any more. Eventually we would see an endless night. I mean, there would eventually be no light.

I failed to see how would your explanations reject the idea that the earth was formed before the sun.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Problem being, there would have been so many easy things to say using words and concepts esaily understood.

God could have said in Genesis....From the animals I made mankind. Would they have not understood that?
God went farther back than that, to the nonliving proteins and nucleic acids in soil and water, rather than bringing up the animal step.

That's just a way of interpreting the life from nonlife portions in Genesis.
 
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elopez

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I failed to see how would your explanations reject the idea that the earth was formed before the sun.
That is because I was not addressing that claim. I was explaining how the earth would have shorter than 24 hrs day if there was no moon until day 4.
 
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PsychoSarah

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That is because I was not addressing that claim. I was explaining how the earth would have shorter than 24 hrs day if there was no moon until day 4.
If that's true, it's news to me. I did not realize that the moon had a significant impact on the rotation of the Earth to that extent. I knew it slowed it down some, but not how much.
 
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AV1611VET

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No, that is what any idiot can observe for himself. You don't need a biology text book, and you don't need the Bible, for that.
Oh, neat.

Then explain, please, how some plants in the past existed as mature full-grown plants, never having seen the sun yet.
 
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lesliedellow

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Oh, neat.

Then explain, please, how some plants in the past existed as mature full-grown plants, never having seen the sun yet.

Such as? They would need to get their energy source from somewhere.
 
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elopez

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If that's true, it's news to me. I did not realize that the moon had a significant impact on the rotation of the Earth to that extent. I knew it slowed it down some, but not how much.
Well no doubt that earth rotated slower in the past. Even 250 million years ago the day length would have been 22.82 hours. I mean the Earth's rotation does come from the initial tendency to rotate, imparted on it when it formed, but the only factor to slow thse rotation down is the tidal forces from the moon.
 
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AV1611VET

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Shekinah energy doesn't qualify as science, and it doesn't qualify as theology. It qualifies as new age gobbledygook.
I don't mean that Shekinah energy.

I mean Shekinah energy.

The real stuff!
 
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Hoghead1

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And my advice to you,-57, is to not just focus on a partial reading of my points. I spelled very clearly in post 191 the hard evidence why Genesis consists of two contradictory accounts. If you wish to provide a rational rebuttal, if you can, fine, but make sure you carefully read what my case is. I specifically addressed why your pluperfect theory of Genesis falls flat on its face. I specifically addressed this issue about "had." There is not HAD there, period. If read in HAD, you are seriously mistranslating and mistreating the text. Also, this bit about Paul being a "liar." Such a comment betrays your total ignorance of the material at hand. Without even having looked at a major , such as Von Rad, mandatory reading in most OT seminary courses, you feel it is your place to sit in judgment on them. Having gone through seminary, I can well assure you that with your negative attitude, you would be lucky to last a day there. That's how far off your thinking is from solid biblical scholarship.

And while we are on the subject of Paul? Can you explain to me his real itinerary, how many pilgrimages he made to Jerusalem? You see, we scholars have a bit of a sticky wicket here. Acts says he made five such pilgrimages. Galatians-Romans give only three. Again, it has proved impossible explain away this contradiction. So, since you know so much more about it than the scholars do, and are such a better Christian they are, suppose you dazzle us with the great brightness of your intellect and get busy and tell us just how many pilgrimages he did make? Frankly, I think he solution is that Paul either forgot just how many he made or deliberately omitted mentioning them for some unknown reason.
You made two additional blatantly false statements. You spoke of reading commentaries, right? You claim you know some that will support you, right? Well, what are they? If you knew anything about graduate study, you would that that is what we do, read commentaries until you are blue in the face. The other way-off assumption you make is that we are reading the Bible through the lens of evolution. That is totally incorrect, because what we are doing is reading the Bible though the lens of a careful linguistic analysis. Greened, everyone reads though Scripture though one lens or another. nobody comes to Scripture with a totally blank mind. So the question is: Just what lens are you reading Scripture though and how valid is it? Correct me if I am wrong, but it does seem you are reading Scripture though the lens of the inerrancy theory. OK, but then you have to rebut my case that this theory is incorrect. If you want, go ahead. But you will need to go through my case, point by point, showing a relational rebuttal, or an attempt thereof, for each of them. I think part of your discomfiture what I and others are saying comes from the fact you are coming here as a lay person. Nothing wrong with that. However, as such, you need to respect the fact that the world of biblical studies and theology is a whole different world, a wholly different ballgame from the world of the laity. It's rules are very different, its priorities are very different, etc. I realize that many laity hold with the inerrancy theory, the notion that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened exactly the Bible says. Fine for laity. Doesn't work a bit in the world of serous scholarship. We want to come to scripture more open-minded. Maybe it is inerrant, maybe not. Let us see. And, no, we definitely do not look at Scripture the lens evolution. We do, however, want to look at Scripture in terms of a very detained literary analysis, as I mentioned. That means biblical scholars are fluent in Hebrew and Greek. Now stop right there. With absolutely no knowledge of biblical languages, you would not seen, right off the bat as totally unqualified to sit in judgment n the scholars who may very well disagree with your preconceived-of notions. So, when you feel the urge to flail biblical scholars, ask your self just how much Hebrew do you know, how much education have you had in biblical archaeology, how much ability you have t discriminate earlier form later forms of the linguistic style of the text, how sensitive you are to picking up on sutle changes of style, etc.
 
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Hoghead1

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Filter the Word though the pseudo-science of evolution? Well, aren't you trying to filter the Word through the bogus and fraudulent lens of creation-science? Also, you seem to have a corrupted understanding of the key differences between Word (capital) and word (small w). At no point, doe Scripture call itself the Word of God. That term is exclusively reserved for Christ, not some written material about him. Also Word means more than just speaking, it means Logos, a rational principle of order. I think calling the Bible the Word of God is sinful form of bibliolatry.
 
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AV1611VET

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Filter the Word though the pseudo-science of evolution? Well, aren't you trying to filter the Word through the bogus and fraudulent lens of creation-science? Also, you seem to have a corrupted understanding of the key differences between Word (capital) and word (small w). At no point, doe Scripture call itself the Word of God. That term is exclusively reserved for Christ, not some written material about him. Also Word means more than just speaking, it means Logos, a rational principle of order. I think calling the Bible the Word of God is sinful form of bibliolatry.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
 
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juvenissun

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That is because I was not addressing that claim. I was explaining how the earth would have shorter than 24 hrs day if there was no moon until day 4.

The "Day" should not be 24 hours. Literally, it only means daytime and night time alternation.
 
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juvenissun

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I was also explaining how, if the sun was a protostar when earth was formed, would have adverse effects on our planet and the solar system.

I don't see that.
The earth might have been hit by some smaller planets. Adversary effects? So what?
 
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