Man and dinosaur coexisting

[PsychoSarah]

I agree, calling anyone stupid is antagonizing. However, many times on forums and threads posters are labeled as the less intelligent people of the populous due to their belief in YEC.

I know, I have seen it. However, some of the instances may be noting that some people are ignorant of the subject they are trying to debate, and that isn't calling someone stupid so much as misinformed. Yes, some people are flinging the mud, but it is fair to distinguish pointing out errors in someone's understanding of material as distinct from the common bullying of calling people stupid.

I would like to clarify that I did not say that they are not a believer because they are too smart for it. I stated that they consider themselves too smart to fall for it. They are so proud of all their education that they will not believe the simple text of ancient men. Many times I have been told that if I had the "education" or knew all the facts that I would not believe or that I would be a fool to believe in YEC.

You might not be a YEC if you weren't indoctrinated, but I have encountered some that did not grow up in religious households. But, that is like saying I wouldn't be for equality between genders if I was a man. It might be true, or it might not be, hard to say exactly how much of my support in that endeavor is because I benefit from it, and how much is from a sense of needing equality to exist beyond personal gain. To claim that any single factor in one's life is responsible for a certain outlook is jumping to conclusions, to say the least.

This is why it is the simpler people, not necessarily the less intelligent but the simpler people who find it easier to grasp the truth of the gospel and the biblical history as it is written. They have the ability to approach it from a position of "teach me" not...."Bah, I've been taught and I know".

I think flexible people, rather than simpler people, might be a better term. Simple is often used as a polite way of referring to someone as having a lesser intelligence than is the norm. Stubborn people are unlikely to be open to new ideas, and flexible people are, so I find that comparison to be a bit better, personally.

Call it arrogance, call it pride.... whatever. Their attitude is their stumbling block and their blinders.

Don't forget that I am an atheist myself. Agnostic atheist seeker, to be more precise. I have been seeking faith for 7 years now. I couldn't tell you the precise reason why I have never found belief, I wish I knew, but I will acknowledge that growing up, I was not indoctrinated, and was left to my own devices on figuring out religion. I doubt that by itself led me to being a lifelong atheist to date, but it probably contributed to it.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Let me ask you,

Does Science have an answer for everything? Is it possible that there are factors, forces, principles, objects, and actions that science has no way of understanding, measuring, proving or disproving?

Even you must acknowledge that the bible is not a large enough text to answer every question we have about the world around us, especially in regards to HOW things work rather than why they exist.

Science doesn't have all the answers. Nothing does. It doesn't mean that the answers it does have are wrong.

 

[lasthero]

The way I see it is... if evolution is true and it took place over billions of years and each organism has a link to the original organism(even several original organisms) there would have to be infinite transitional species

What do you think a transitional species is?

kinds

Please provide a consistent definition of 'kind'

and organisms.

There are a lot of organisms on this planet. Not 'infinite', but a lot.

Just to go from say a lizard to a bird....

No one ever said birds came from lizards. Dinosaurs were not lizards. It wouldn't kill you to actually read a bit about this stuff.

there should be innumerable fossils of gradual change for just one simple macro evolutionary step.

What would you accept as a transitional fossil between birds and dinosaurs? There's little point in talking about how many transitional fossils there should be when you haven't even described what you consider a transitional fossil to be.

 

[lasthero]

You cannot "prove" transition with snapshots of a sequence. You can guess, surmise, extrapolate and presume, but never prove.

Science doesn't 'prove' anything.

That would be like seeing a man in a room with a smoking gun in his hand and a dead man on the floor. You charge him with murder due to the "smoking" gun. All the while the dead man died of a stab wound......and you missed the open window behind the corps because it wasn't in the picture.

Ignoring for a moment that a stab wound and a bullet wound are pretty obviously different wounds, even if the dead man DID have a bullet wound, the smoking gun wouldn't be PROOF. After all, the murderer could have killed the guy, passed the gun off to someone else, then fled before you arrived.

That's why we gather evidence, to come to a conclusion.

 

[BrriKerr]

Why waste your time being so belligerent? What do you hope to accomplish by insulting people? Don't just emptily claim that people are wrong, give reason for it, and if you want people to care about what you say, then attempt to be polite when you do it.

I cringe when I read posts like this.

Any criticism of a religious persons stance is seen as an attack because they have no justification for believing as they do.
The whole idea that we can change something just by wishing or wanting it would change is ludicrous in the extreme,
it's not only childish it's moronic.

I cringe when I see people try to defend the indefensible, ignorance should be countered by education and delusions should be treated.

 

[AV1611VET]

Any criticism of a religious persons stance is seen as an attack because they have no justification for believing as they do.

Take your own advice, chief.

Some people here think I hate science, since I'm so critical of it.

If you're not "attacking" religious persons stances, then don't tell me I'm "attacking" science.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Any criticism of a religious persons stance is seen as an attack because they have no justification for believing as they do.

That's outright incorrect. Just because you disagree with their justifications does not make them any less justifications in the minds of the people bringing them up. I read so many justifications of religion, some I disagree with, others which make me think, and some I actually do agree with. The position of the religious is not completely without merit, even if you think their position is based in nonfactual information.

But I am not surprised that when YOU criticize religion, the people you are talking to view it as an attack. You are being rude about it, without even granting an explanation for your position. Your posts are the atheist equivalent of "if we evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys?", if it was edited to insult the person the question was addressed to, and it was a statement rather than a question opening up to some kind of discourse. Which amounts to "you're an idiot, go back to your momma and cry about it". Such posts distract from the debate, and do your position a disservice. It is atheists like you that make people feel justified in thinking that all atheists are terrible people with enormous superiority complexes.

The whole idea that we can change something just by wishing it would change is ludicrous in the extreme, it's not only childish it's moronic.

The religious people do not disagree with you on that one, but how about giving reasons behind that perspective, rather than just stating you have it.

I cringe when I see people try to defend the indefensible.

Indefensible in your opinion. Being stubborn and unwilling to listen to ideas does not become the high ground just because you are an atheist; it makes you debate poison.

You know, for a brief period in my life, I was just like you. I thought the religious were idiots. Then I took a college philosophy class, and it mellowed me out to different perspectives and respecting others. I became a fan of playing devil's advocate in debates, even if I disagreed with that position, because it granted a new perspective, a novel experience, and a challenging one. It also made me understand that I can be wrong, and that it is ok to be wrong.

Accept it. Accept that marginal possibility that you can be wrong, and so many more doors will open for you in development as a person. The opposition need not necessarily be right either, all can be wrong, it happens, and it is ok.

 

[BrriKerr]

That's outright incorrect. Just because you disagree with their justifications does not make them any less justifications in the minds of the people bringing them up. I read so many justifications of religion, some I disagree with, others which make me think, and some I actually do agree with. The position of the religious is not completely without merit, even if you think their position is based in nonfactual information.

But I am not surprised that when YOU criticize religion, the people you are talking to view it as an attack. You are being rude about it, without even granting an explanation for your position. Your posts are the atheist equivalent of "if we evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys?", if it was edited to insult the person the question was addressed to, and it was a statement rather than a question opening up to some kind of discourse. Which amounts to "you're an idiot, go back to your momma and cry about it". Such posts distract from the debate, and do your position a disservice. It is atheists like you that make people feel justified in thinking that all atheists are terrible people with enormous superiority complexes.
The religious people do not disagree with you on that one, but how about giving reasons behind that perspective, rather than just stating you have it.


Indefensible in your opinion. Being stubborn and unwilling to listen to ideas does not become the high ground just because you are an atheist; it makes you debate poison.

Ideas yes but deranged ideas no, should all the African tribal religions be given the benefit of the doubt or should they be dismissed for what they are, nonsense brought on by fear?

You know, for a brief period in my life, I was just like you. I thought the religious were idiots. Then I took a college philosophy class, and it mellowed me out to different perspectives and respecting others. I became a fan of playing devil's advocate in debates, even if I disagreed with that position, because it granted a new perspective, a novel experience, and a challenging one. It also made me understand that I can be wrong, and that it is ok to be wrong.

Accept it. Accept that marginal possibility that you can be wrong, and so many more doors will open for you in development as a person. The opposition need not necessarily be right either, all can be wrong, it happens, and it is ok.

Are you saying that believing in nonsense is OK? if I believed the local witch doctor jumping around cured my son of epilepsy would you say that my belief was justified or would you say it was completely unjustified? are all the other religion justified? is everything anyone can ever imagine to be true justified just because we can not prove a negative?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Ideas yes but deranged ideas no, should all the African tribal religions be given the benefit of the doubt or should they be dismissed for what they are, nonsense brought on by fear?

First things first, they are not deranged. Illogical maybe, but far from deranged. While religion may have some founding in fear, most practicing people do not feel that way about their faith. I never said you had to view these ideas as equal to yours, or even plausible; just that you should be respectful in your disagreement. Everyone will be happier, and people will be more willing to listen to you. Everyone wins. Speak your mind, just don't be a butt about it.

Are you saying that believing in nonsense is OK? if I believed the local witch doctor jumping around cured my son of epilepsy would you say that my belief was justified or would you say it was completely unjustified? are all the other religion justified? is everything anyone can ever imagine to be true justified just because we can not prove a negative?

Sure, I have seen no evidence that being religious is inherently good or bad. And of course I would think you were unjustified in thinking the witch doctor cured your son; I hate holistic and religious medicine in all their pseudoscience glory. I just wouldn't be that blunt when I voiced it. The saddest thing about me having to tell you to have tact, is that I have a social disorder that impairs mine.

 

[BrriKerr]

First things first, they are not deranged. Illogical maybe, but far from deranged. While religion may have some founding in fear, most practicing people do not feel that way about their faith. I never said you had to view these ideas as equal to yours, or even plausible; just that you should be respectful in your disagreement. Everyone will be happier, and people will be more willing to listen to you. Everyone wins. Speak your mind, just don't be a butt about it.

If people objected to the nonsense right from the word go and told believers what people thought perhaps some people would not be so inclined to believe such foolishness, why should someone being completely irrational get a pass? if they said they believed Superman was a real person they would be locked up or at least given medication, but no, when enough people believe the lie it gets a free pass and everyone suffers.

Sure, I have seen no evidence that being religious is inherently good or bad. And of course I would think you were unjustified in thinking the witch doctor cured your son; I hate holistic and religious medicine in all their pseudoscience glory. I just wouldn't be that blunt when I voiced it. The saddest thing about me having to tell you to have tact, is that I have a social disorder that impairs mine.

I'm sorry to hear that but being nice about their foolishness obviously does not work, look at the damage religion has done to the education system in the US, the money wasted on religious collages alone run into the billions of dollars not to mention the false information they feed young minds, the US has a TV station dedicated to feeding false information to millions of already not very bright people, how can that be allowed? we know why it's allowed because stupid people will be docile and say very little while informed people continually ask questions of the people in power.

 

[BrianAK]

If people objected to

etc etc...

Dude, I'm sorry, but your belligerence is not going to convince anybody that you're correct. You come across as the stereotypical Internet atheist.

I used to be far more fundamentasist/conservative in my religious beliefs. I'm now moderate to liberal. I was not insulted out of fundamentalism. I read a lot of stuff and explanations written by a lot of friendly people. I can't help but think that your approach may simply cause people to be close up and stop listening to anything else you might have to say.

 

[BrriKerr]

Dude, I'm sorry, but your belligerence is not going to convince anybody that you're correct. You come across as the stereotypical Internet atheist.

I used to be far more fundamentasist/conservative in my religious beliefs. I'm now moderate to liberal. I was not insulted out of fundamentalism. I read a lot of stuff and explanations written by a lot of friendly people. I can't help but think that your approach may simply cause people to be close up and stop listening to anything else you might have to say.

I was not insulting anyone I was talking to another atheist.

Has anyone ever been talked out of being a creationist?

A child stops believing in Santa Claus when they get to a certain age and their parents stop insisting that Santa exists,
if they did the same thing with religion their child would not be religious now, for them their God would not exist, you know that to be true and so do I.

 

[AV1611VET]

A child stops believing in Santa Claus when they get to a certain age and their parents stop insisting that Santa exists,
if they did the same thing with religion their child would not be religious now, for them their God would not exist, you know that to be true and so do I.

Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Santa Claus is easy to drop like a hot [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], as Santa Claus has no roots.

It's just a matter of a child's parents telling their child they've been poed, and that's the end of it.

Christianity, on the other hand, has many deep roots:

1. martyrs
2. time in BC & AD
3. slogans, sayings, greetings
4. iconography, bumper stickers, Scripture on buildings both public & private
5. edifices, organizations, holidays
6. songs, services, hymns
7. references to God in pledges and preambles

What's Santa Claus got?

Elf on the Shelf? coal for naughty boys & girls? polar bears drinking his Coca-Cola?

You need a better example than Santa Claus, if you're going to compare someone to Almighty God.

 

[BrriKerr]

A child stops believing in Santa Claus when they get to a certain age and their parents stop insisting that Santa exists,
if they did the same thing with religion their child would not be religious now, for them their God would not exist, you know that to be true and so do I.

You need a better example than Santa Claus, if you're going to compare someone to Almighty God.

You really are away with the fairies AV, I didn't compare Santa with any God, I said the belief in Santa was like the belief in a God, if it's not being re-enforced by the parents the child stops believing in it no matter what it is, if the parent keep telling the child that the teacup on the table is a holy cup the child will grow up believing that it really is.

 

[AV1611VET]

I didn't compare Santa with any God, I said the belief in Santa was like the belief in a God, if it's not being re-enforced by the parents the child stops believing in it no matter what it is,

To a point, depending on who or what it is.

In the case of Santa Claus, a child will eventually realize he's been poed.

In the case of Almighty God, this principle applies:

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

if the parent keep telling the child that the teacup on the table is a holy cup the child will grow up believing it is.

It takes more than lip service.

If the parent also treats the tea cup as holy ... walks her talk, in other words ... then the child will more than likely grow up believing it is indeed holy.

 

[JacksBratt]

No I don't think it's funny, these are peoples lives that are being ruined because of some crazy brain numbing belief.

Just exactly how and who's lives are being ruined?

 

[JacksBratt]

What do you think a transitional species is?

Take a small dinosaur and a billion years later it's relative is a bird... or whatever. If you could find species that was the great grand kid of the dinosaur and the great grand father of the bird, it would be transitional. How's that?

Please provide a consistent definition of 'kind'

Nothing I say here has not been posted ad nauseum before.....

There are a lot of organisms on this planet. Not 'infinite', but a lot.

Yes, infinite is a lot.
Your point?

No one ever said birds came from lizards. Dinosaurs were not lizards. It wouldn't kill you to actually read a bit about this stuff.

And........zero slack was given. Really? your going to pick at that? Like it had any bearing on the point being made.

What would you accept as a transitional fossil between birds and dinosaurs? There's little point in talking about how many transitional fossils there should be when you haven't even described what you consider a transitional fossil to be.

A transitional fossil would be impossible. You would need that to be plural.... as in transitional fossils. And thousands of them.

If you have a snapshot of someone on a bridge, facing west and with the posture of walking, you still cannot say they walked off the west end of the bridge. They could have turned around and walked back, jumped off, been picked up by a helicopter, whatever.

That is what a fossil is. The remains of an animal that once lived. That's it. For transition to be evident, since it would take billions of years, you would need thousands of fossils to prove it. Just like the frames of a motion picture would prove what really happened to the guy on the bridge. Not one picture or even 10 would prove it.

 

[dougangel]

Just exactly how and who's lives are being ruined?

I wasn't going to bother getting into that but since you've brought it up jack again I think I will.

 

[dougangel]

No I don't think it's funny, these are peoples lives that are being ruined because of some crazy brain numbing belief.

Well I'm a Christian. And my beliefs in Christ have enhanced my life and I have the love of God. Looking back I have made a lot less mistakes than if I hadn't taken notice of Christ's wisdom.

You on the other hand. You Offer me that life is meaningless and in my particular life time. I have that then I die.
Which is pretty depressing and understandable that some atheists have committed suicide.
I mean why are wasting your time here . Why don't you go out and follow hedonistic pursuits until you die ? Or try and take over the world or something if you truly believe where just animals waiting to die.

 

[JacksBratt]

Well I'm a Christian. And my beliefs in Christ have enhanced my life and I have the love of God. Looking back I have made a lot less mistakes than if I hadn't taken notice of Christ's wisdom.

You on the other hand. You Offer me that life is meaningless and in my particular life time. I have that then I die.
Which is pretty depressing and understandable that some atheists have committed suicide.
I mean why are wasting your time here . Why don't you go out and follow hedonistic pursuits until you die ? Or try and take over the world or something if you truly believe where just animals waiting to die.

I understand your view now. Evolution, to me, would cultivate the outlook that we came from nothing, we are here for nothing, we mean nothing and there is nothing for us when we die. Absolutely no purpose at all. We exist because we exist, then, we die, end of story.