Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Hammster]

“But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities,”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬
http://bible.com/100/act.16.19.nasb

Same word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’” Luke 4:8

Are you saying that Jesus did not keep all of the commandments and fulfill the law of God completely?

If that's the case, we above all men are much to be pitied.

Such a Law was made for man and not for God. So yes; I am saying that such a law could not be obeyed by Jesus because He was God incarnate Himself. The fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. So no. Jesus could not have worshiped the Lord our God because He is God. Jesus also received worship from men. Yet, the Scriptures say we are to worship the Lord our God only. In other words, I cannot receive worship from men. Yet, Jesus received worship. Furthermore, Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. I can't do something like that. Only God could do something that. Jesus also forgave sins. Only the Son of Man (God) alone has the power to forgive sins.

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[Bible Highlighter]

"Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’” Luke 4:8

Are you saying that Jesus did not keep all of the commandments and fulfill the law of God completely?

If that's the case, we above all men are much to be pitied.

Yes, I am saying that such a law could not be obeyed by Jesus because He was God incarnate Himself. The fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. So no. Jesus could not have worshiped the Lord our God because He is God. Jesus also received worship from men. Yet, the Scriptures say we are to worship the Lord our God only. In other words, I cannot receive worship from men. Yet, Jesus received worship. Furthermore, Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. I can't do something like that. Only God could do something that. Jesus also forgave sins. Only the Son of Man (God) alone has the power to forgive sins.

....

 

[Hammster]

Such a Law was made for man and not for God. So yes; I am saying that such a law could not be obeyed by Jesus because He was God incarnate Himself. The fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Him bodily. So no. Jesus could not have worshiped the Lord our God because He is God. Jesus also received worship from men. Yet, the Scriptures say we are to worship the Lord our God only. In other words, I cannot receive worship from men. Yet, Jesus received worship. Furthermore, Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. I can't do something like that. Only God could do something that. Jesus also forgave sins. Only the Son of Man (God) alone has the power to forgive sins.

....

Jesus was a man. For Him to be perfect, He would have to keep the whole law.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are ignoring the language. The world used in James for drag is the same exact word used for draw in John. Just because it doesn't fit yiyreyou're narrative doesn't mean the definition is changed.

Homonyms do exist in the Bible. Meaning, these are words that can look the same but can have different meanings.


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[Marvin Knox]

Yes, I am saying that such a law could not be obeyed by Jesus ..................... Jesus could not have worshiped the Lord our God because He is God. ....

Twice said.

Twice really, really dead wrong.

You said, "such a Law was made for man."

Jesus was fully man.

The whole point of His being the second or last Adam is that He did what the first man Adam did not do.

What He did was fully obey God. That includes worshiping God as we are commanded to do.

You've really jumped the tracks on this one.

When it comes to undermining the credibility of what you say this is right up there with Calvin's supposed murder of Michael Servetus IMO.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus was a man. For Him to be perfect, He would have to keep the whole law.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath or the Law. Jesus was changing the Old Law in the New Testament. For He said, you have heard it said, an eye for an eye. But Jesus said, but I tell you that if you are smitten on the cheek, turn so as to let them strike the other.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Twice said.

Twice really, really dead wrong.

And you can go on believing Jesus can worship God all you like. But that is not what happened. Jesus is God. God cannot worship God. That doesn't make any sense.


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[Marvin Knox]

And you can go on believing Jesus can worship God all you like. But that is not what happened. Jesus is God. God cannot worship God. That doesn't make any sense. ....

It seems that you and many others here tend to reject a lot of things simply because you can't understand them completely.

Not the least of which is the idea that predestination and free will are totally compatible.

If you're going to wait until things are totally understandable before you will believe them - you won't believe much while you are in this fleshly body about what God has done and is doing.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Another problem God placed upon my heart this morning as to why Calvinism is wrong is that it makes you think you are more important than you really are. If you believe you are God's chosen who was elected since the foundation of the world, you are going to think you are more special than other people. But the Scriptures say, God gives grace to the humble, though. ....

You seem to be woefully unaware of the attitude of Calvinist doctrine concerning self worth.

In fact you seem to have it exactly backward.

God does give grace to the humble. Perhaps that's why Calvin was given so much grace to accomplish what he accomplished in this life in spite of his many debilitating infirmities.

 

[Hammster]

Homonyms do exist in the Bible. Meaning, these are words that can look the same but can have different meanings.


....

Maybe. But they cannot have a definition that doesn't exist.

 

[Marvin Knox]

No doubt you have a rosey colored version of history of what you think happened. Whether your version of events in history actually played out of not, there are other documents showing that Calvin was directly involved in his execution. This is not a Christian trait. To have another put to death is evil and wrong for a New Testament saint. That is not an imperfection. It is a showing of their true colors of whether they are of God or not. For we are to pray and to do good even upon our enemies. But believe what you will and associate with a man who has a very shady past. ...

The relationship of the church and secular governments in the 16th century was a rather complex one as it was in the many centuries before the 16th.

That was true for Protestant churches in and after the Reformation as well as the Roman Catholic church.

I'm no defender of Catholicism that's for sure. But the fact is that the vast number of imprisonments, executions and tortures were carried out by the secular governments, even though with the obvious approval of the RCC.

The same was true under Luther's relationship with the world government. The same was true in 16th century Switzerland.

Michael Servetus was considered and branded a heretic by both Protestants churches of various stripes and the Roman Catholic church alike. The truth is that he stayed in Geneva and faced the possibility of death by the secular government for his beliefs rather than leave Geneva and face almost certain death elsewhere in Europe. His published heresies would have preceded him where ever he would go in Europe. He rolled the dice and lost it seems by staying in Geneva to await his fate.

The plain fact is that Calvin did not stand firmly against the relationship of church and state in Geneva as he should have. No doubt that his sorrow for not having done so plagued him for the rest of his short life.

But, then again there was only so much he could do not being a citizen of Geneva at the time. He was a product of the times as were most of the reformers and even modern theologians to some degree.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath or the Law. Jesus was changing the Old Law in the New Testament. For He said, you have heard it said, an eye for an eye. But Jesus said, but I tell you that if you are smitten on the cheek, turn so as to let them strike the other.


....

Jesus was frequently explaining the law and correcting misconceptions about it. But nowhere did He say that everyone should worship the Father but Him.

 

[sdowney717]

In order to understand both of these as true, Christ is Glorified again after the resurrection as is God in heaven and has been given all authority.
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws - drags him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw - drag all peoples to Myself.”

If anyone is to be drawn, Christ who is God will do the drawing. These two verses must agree. It is not that Christ draws all of every man to Himself so they are then saved. It is that some from every people group all over the earth are saved.
And I suggest this verse also means if anyone has come to Christ, then God and Christ must of necessity dragged- drawn them. And that is not of themselves. Since naturally men shrink back from His light, they won't willingly come on their own.

Draw does mean to drag
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1670&t=NKJV

1. to draw, drag off
   
   
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
   

 

[nobdysfool]

Brother Nobdysfool,

If my interpretation was in error, please offer a correction based on established rules of interpretation. Please explain how God cannot be God.

In Christ!

Since that is not what I said, I'm not sure of what you're asking of me.

 

[Marvin Knox]

And you can go on believing Jesus can worship God all you like. ....

Thanks. I will.

"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship."

If the offering by the Lord of His body to God was not worship in it's purest sense - I don't know what qualifies as worship in your book.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The relationship of the church and secular governments in the 16th century was a rather complex one as it was in the many centuries before the 16th.

That was true for Protestant churches in and after the Reformation as well as the Roman Catholic church.

I'm no defender of Catholicism that's for sure. But the fact is that the vast number of imprisonments, executions and tortures were carried out by the secular governments, even though with the obvious approval of the RCC.

The same was true under Luther's relationship with the world government. The same was true in 16th century Switzerland.

Michael Servetus was considered and branded a heretic by both Protestants churches of various stripes and the Roman Catholic church alike. The truth is that he stayed in Geneva and faced the possibility of death by the secular government for his beliefs rather than leave Geneva and face almost certain death elsewhere in Europe. His published heresies would have preceded him where ever he would go in Europe. He rolled the dice and lost it seems by staying in Geneva to await his fate.

The plain fact is that Calvin did not stand firmly against the relationship of church and state in Geneva as he should have. No doubt that his sorrow for not having done so plagued him for the rest of his short life.

But, then again there was only so much he could do not being a citizen of Geneva at the time. He was a product of the times as were most of the reformers and even modern theologians to some degree.

There is no use defending what you think might have happened. We don't have a time machine. Whether it was true or not, there is documentation of Calvin setting out to convict a man so as to give him the death penalty. If it is true, then you are following a person who could potentially not be of God. For Christians are not supposed to take lives.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks. I will.

"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship."

If the offering by the Lord of His body to God was not worship in it's purest sense - I don't know what qualifies as worship in your book.

But we do this for the creator of the Universe. The Son of God (who gave Himself as a sacrifice for us) is God and the Creator of the Universe.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus was frequently explaining the law and correcting misconceptions about it. But nowhere did He say that everyone should worship the Father but Him.

Nowhere does the Bible say Jesus worshipped the Father.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus was frequently explaining the law and correcting misconceptions about it. But nowhere did He say that everyone should worship the Father but Him.

No. Jesus changed the Law.