The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON


Moved from Controversial Theology.


MOD HAT OFF

 

[brotherjerry]

Oh lookie...another thread by a poster who feels they have the final nail in the coffin of eternal security....and as typical they get many things not quite right

Let me add a comment here real quick though about Prodigal Son Parable...it is NOT about salvation, at least on the individual level. Think about it...Here we have this man who was born into a wealthy family, lots of animals, servants, etc. Then he decided that was not good enough and he took his inheritance and left the family. Only to come back and to be reinstated where he was in the family. So can anyone please tell me where in the Bible it says we are born saved and part of the family that you are proposing if you propose that the parable is about salvation?

Cause see my Bible indicates that when we accept Christ, we are adopted into the family, and that we are now partakers of the inheritance. The prodigal son was not adopted back into the family, he was already part of the family.

 

[sdowney717]

Correct, the man had 2 sons and one was dead. But still the dead son was a son of the father the whole time, just a dead son.
He can be thought of as representing the elect prior to their being made alive. One of those in the golden chain of redemption whom are foreknown therefore predestined therefore called therefore justified who all are in the end therefore glorified.

The father of the lost son says this
24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.

Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost. The lost are these children of God spread abroad over the earth.
John 11:52
and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

About Zacchaeus Luke 19
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham;
10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Matthew 18
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.


Here Christ seeks who? those who are the true 'sons of Abraham', who are the lost sheep. And that is all Christ seeks and saves, the sheep.
We know what Christ means by the term from John 8

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.
41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

Jesus seeks the lost sheep of the house of Israel who are Abraham's children not according to the flesh but according the the SPIRIT.
According to those who are elect to be saved, those are the lost that Christ saves. Now we also are of that house of Abraham who are children of the promise God made to Abraham that he would have children. And it is only those children of God's promise that Christ seeks and saves.
Just as Paul teaches in Galatians 3
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
and in Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

Paul is speaking to those who are saved, that they were the promised children God spoke of to Abraham. That they were lost and are now found.

I know some will understand this.

For more on this teaching read Hebrews 2
Bringing Many Sons to Glory
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.

17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Christ only aids to salvation the seed of Abraham. Those born according to the Spirit and not flesh, those born according to the promise of God, so only for the elect whom He has foreknown will be glorified.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is about salvation because the son says he sinned against heaven and in the father's sight. Sin deals with one in needing a Savior from their sin.

However, if one merely changes the parable of the Prodigal Son to not talk about salvation they are doing so because they find such a notion as being disturbing to them.

...

 

[Jesus First]

Oh lookie...another thread by a poster who feels they have the final nail in the coffin of eternal security....and as typical they get many things not quite right

Let me add a comment here real quick though about Prodigal Son Parable...it is NOT about salvation, at least on the individual level. Think about it...Here we have this man who was born into a wealthy family, lots of animals, servants, etc. Then he decided that was not good enough and he took his inheritance and left the family. Only to come back and to be reinstated where he was in the family. So can anyone please tell me where in the Bible it says we are born saved and part of the family that you are proposing if you propose that the parable is about salvation?

Cause see my Bible indicates that when we accept Christ, we are adopted into the family, and that we are now partakers of the inheritance. The prodigal son was not adopted back into the family, he was already part of the family.

Brother Jerry,

You wrote, "Prodigal Son Parable...it is NOT about salvation, at least on the individual level"

So what is Christ teaching in this parable? Please share your knowleadge.

In Christ!

 

[brotherjerry]

No actually one is not changing the Prodigal Son at all.

In contrast to the previous two parables (lost coin, lost sheep) we are given more information here, we see the inheritance mentioned, and we see the interaction and attitude of the older brother. This family dynamic should not and cannot be ignored in looking at this parable and the meaning of the parable.

I am sure we can all agree that we are born separated from God. We are born lost. We have no inheritance, we have nothing. This does not fit the prodigal son parable because the youngest was born into wealth. The prodigal son starts off the story in wealth. Then the youngest son takes his portion of the wealth, basically treating his father as if his father was dead. And then takes that wealth and goes out into the world. This in no way ever relates to what we consider a lost person in the Bible.

We also see the oldest son, is the lost son is a picture of salvation then what is the oldest son in that picture? Someone who has been saved the entire time? Again how was he born with it?

There is just to much that does not add up to any image of salvation that we see in the Bible for this story to be a picture of salvation.

 

[brotherjerry]

Brother Jerry,

You wrote, "Prodigal Son Parable...it is NOT about salvation, at least on the individual level"

So what is Christ teaching in this parable? Please share your knowleadge.

In Christ!

I will be honest here Jesus First. I am not entirely certain. But one thing that does relate in some instances is that the two sons are types of Jews. Jesus was responding to the Pharisees questioning him. So in relation to them the Jews are born into being God's chosen people, they have referred to as God's chosen people. They are sons of God. But some like the Pharisees have turned their backs on the prophecies of Christ. They have declared God dead in their hearts because they choose not to believe. But while they were off doing their own thing God patiently waited for their return. This is the one parable of the three that the person portraying God or Jesus was not out searching for the lost, instead here he patiently waited for the lost to return.

It really is an interesting question and it is something that I have just started to make my Bible study for the near future.

 

[Job8]

To call "eternal security" a lie is to make God a liar. That is blasphemy.

 

[EmSw]

I will be honest here Jesus First. I am not entirely certain. But one thing that does relate in some instances is that the two sons are types of Jews. Jesus was responding to the Pharisees questioning him. So in relation to them the Jews are born into being God's chosen people, they have referred to as God's chosen people. They are sons of God. But some like the Pharisees have turned their backs on the prophecies of Christ. They have declared God dead in their hearts because they choose not to believe. But while they were off doing their own thing God patiently waited for their return. This is the one parable of the three that the person portraying God or Jesus was not out searching for the lost, instead here he patiently waited for the lost to return.

It really is an interesting question and it is something that I have just started to make my Bible study for the near future.

So, a son of God CAN become a son of the devil. And a chosen person of God can turn their back on God and choose not to believe and be lost. Are you sure you are of the Calvinististic belief?

 

[PapaZoom]

Jude 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen

 

[PapaZoom]

Sharing FWIW:http://www.raystedman.org/new-testament/romans/the-great-mystery

 

[Jesus First]

I will be honest here Jesus First. I am not entirely certain. But one thing that does relate in some instances is that the two sons are types of Jews. Jesus was responding to the Pharisees questioning him. So in relation to them the Jews are born into being God's chosen people, they have referred to as God's chosen people. They are sons of God. But some like the Pharisees have turned their backs on the prophecies of Christ. They have declared God dead in their hearts because they choose not to believe. But while they were off doing their own thing God patiently waited for their return. This is the one parable of the three that the person portraying God or Jesus was not out searching for the lost, instead here he patiently waited for the lost to return.

It really is an interesting question and it is something that I have just started to make my Bible study for the near future.

Brother Jerry,

Thanks for your reply. For the meaning of the parable of the prodigal son you wrote: "I'm not entirely certain". Since you are not certain, how did you know (from an earlier post) that it's not regarding individual salvation?

The language of the parable (as I understand it) indicates it's regarding salvation. The Father represents our Heavenly Father. The prodigal son represents a believer who leaves his father's house with no intention (apparently) of ever returning. It's interesting —the Father didn't search or force the son back. He patiently waited for his son's return. The repentant son returns in humility. He says, "I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.” (v. 19; ESV) The Father exclaims: "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate." (v. 24).

The language of being "lost" and "found" describe spiritual realities. A "son" can die spiritually and be made "alive" again. The necessity to endure in the faith was taught by Jesus, His disciples and the apostle Paul. One of my favorite verses (of many) is John 5:24:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

Who "has passed from death to life"? He/she is identified by the present tense participles: "hears" and "believes". The one who "hears"; (progressively) and "believes" (progressively), "has" (in the present; progressively) "eternal life." This verse teaches conditional eternal security. While one remains in the conditional state —the promise of "eternal life" remains true.

Keep the faith in Jesus Christ!

 

[sdowney717]

The dead son comes to himself, (regenerated), realizing his terrible sin against the Father.
He had asked for his inheritance before his fathers death, so in a way had wished his Father dead, but it is him who was dead.
The formerly dead son then is drawn to Christ, so returns to the Father having been regenerated.
The Father is expecting the formerly dead son with certainty, waiting for his return.
The formerly dead son demonstrates to the Father repentance since he turned away from the world and came back to the Father.
The Father totally accepts him back into the family.

The Father is God and CHRIST. Jesus saying if you have seen ME, you have seen the Father.
The elder son who remained with Christ, is not the unbelieving pharisees, sadducees, scribes.
Jesus calls them broods of vipers, serpents, destined for hell. Woe to them he says.
Those people were most certainly DEAD, not alive with Christ. The elder son is alive to Christ and God.
For additional proof the Father tells the elder son everything I have is yours, so then a shared partaker in the inheritance of Christ, a beneficiary of Christ's atoning blood sacrifice. So a member of the body of Christ.

The elder son's resentment against the formerly dead son, shows he has forgiveness issues and needs to repent about some things, but he is not lost and dead. How true about those in the church who have some issues, some have many issues.

Only the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit are 100% perfect and true.

 

[sdowney717]

Jesus uses these same words was lost and is found, to well, refer to His seeking and saving that which was lost.
Saying the parable is not about salvation of the dead son, it logically does not flow with all the other parables about the lost sheep, lost coin.

Luke 15
31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours.
32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

What is a 'lost sheep'. Who then is this lost son? He is one of the lost sheep of Christ, since the dead son is still a dead son of the Father.
Surely a calvinist will know.
That the dead son was part of the Father's house points to him being one of those God foreknew beforehand who would be made alive, so then predestined to be glorified. God knew him in the Spirit beforehand, so alive to God he will be eventually in God's perfect timing. That Christ says he was dead and is alive again, point that out, not that he was saved then lost, but dead then alive truly again, being a part of the Father's house was never in question, so then he was alive to God even though dead in sins. Ephesians 2. They guy had an eventual terrible time in the world after experiencing all the pleasures of it. Part of our being drawn to Christ is that through many trials and tribulations we enter into the kingdom of God. This is part of the bringing many sons to glory of Hebrews 2.

21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

It is no easy road into the kingdom of God.
What does it say here?
Romans 7:9
I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
and here?
"for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

So the younger son had not lost a prior salvation.

 

[brotherjerry]

Brother Jerry,

Thanks for your reply. For the meaning of the parable of the prodigal son you wrote: "I'm not entirely certain". Since you are not certain, how did you know (from an earlier post) that it's not regarding individual salvation?

The language of the parable (as I understand it) indicates it's regarding salvation. The Father represents our Heavenly Father. The prodigal son represents a believer who leaves his father's house with no intention (apparently) of ever returning. It's interesting —the Father didn't search or force the son back. He patiently waited for his son's return. The repentant son returns in humility. He says, "I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.” (v. 19; ESV) The Father exclaims: "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate." (v. 24).

The language of being "lost" and "found" describe spiritual realities. A "son" can die spiritually and be made "alive" again. The necessity to endure in the faith was taught by Jesus, His disciples and the apostle Paul. One of my favorite verses (of many) is John 5:24:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

Who "has passed from death to life"? He/she is identified by the present tense participles: "hears" and "believes". The one who "hears"; (progressively) and "believes" (progressively), "has" (in the present; progressively) "eternal life." This verse teaches conditional eternal security. While one remains in the conditional state —the promise of "eternal life" remains true.

Keep the faith in Jesus Christ!

*added
As to how would I know this is not about salvation? Process of elimination. If we are to treat the first two parables (Sheep and coin) about salvation, then this one does not fit the same pattern as those two in several ways, actually conflicting with them. So if they are about salvation, then this one is not. Or it is the other way around and this one is, and the first two are not. But this one has more questions to be answered and things that conflict with either eternal security or conditional security doctrines to be treated as a parable about salvation.
*end the edit

So what you believe is that this is a story about a saved person losing their salvation and then getting it back?
But how do you reconcile being born saved then? Or is this representative of their spiritual birth? Also what role does the older brother play in the salvation lost scenario?

"Conditional eternal security"? Sorry how can something be eternally secure but yet still be conditional?

 

[brotherjerry]

Jesus uses these same words was lost and is found, to well, refer to His seeking and saving that which was lost.
Saying the parable is not about salvation of the dead son, it logically does not flow with all the other parables about the lost sheep, lost coin.

Luke 15
31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours.
32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

What is a 'lost sheep'. Who then is this lost son? He is one of the lost sheep of Christ, since the dead son is still a dead son of the Father.
Surely a calvinist will know.
That the dead son was part of the Father's house points to him being one of those God foreknew beforehand who would be made alive, so then predestined to be glorified. God knew him in the Spirit beforehand, so alive to God he will be eventually in God's perfect timing. That Christ says he was dead and is alive again, point that out, not that he was saved then lost, but dead then alive truly again, being a part of the Father's house was never in question, so then he was alive to God even though dead in sins. Ephesians 2. They guy had an eventual terrible time in the world after experiencing all the pleasures of it. Part of our being drawn to Christ is that through many trials and tribulations we enter into the kingdom of God. This is part of the bringing many sons to glory of Hebrews 2.

21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

It is no easy road into the kingdom of God.
What does it say here?
Romans 7:9
I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
and here?
"for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

So the younger son had not lost a prior salvation.

But the younger son had inheritance before going out into the world. So if being part of the family again is representative of salvation then he started off saved as he was part of the family. So that would indicate that if the time with the pigs was man unsaved, and the time coming back is man saved...then what is the time before man was unsaved?
Also again what then does the brother represent if this is a picture of salvation?
Also look at the previous two parables. If you are going to use them as examples of salvation as well, then God in those parables went out to seek that which was lost, the father in this case did not go and seek that which was lost.

 

[brotherjerry]

So, a son of God CAN become a son of the devil. And a chosen person of God can turn their back on God and choose not to believe and be lost. Are you sure you are of the Calvinististic belief?

Oh I am not a Calvinist...never claimed to be. Let me reinforce it here..TULIP has been shown to be incorrect My beliefs would be more along the lines of tp (little t and little p...I believe the state they mention but not the same applications or reasoning...all the rest go away).

*Edit: I started off with a very inflammatory word in reference to TULIP and I apologize for that. I have since updated this post to remove that inflammation.

 

[PapaZoom]

Oh I am not a Calvinist...never claimed to be. Let me reinforce it here..TULIP is a lie My beliefs would be more along the lines of tp (little t and little p...I believe the state they mention but not the same applications or reasoning...all the rest go away).

I sometimes wonder if Calvin was even fully understood. BTW, I've noticed a lot of posts here where claims of someone or some claim being a "LIE" is tossed out without much though. TULIP is not a lie. It's a idea. It may be wrong, but it's not a lie.

Here's a lie:
Lie
A lie is a statement that is known or intended by its source to be misleading, inaccurate, or false.

So for all you throwing out the term "lie" let me remind you that if you apply that definition to yourselves, you are all liars (and so am I then) because if you get something wrong, you are lying. That's what you are saying here.

Unless a statement is known or intended by the source to be misleading (knowing it's false) it not a lie. So we need to stop using that term and be accurate with out words.

 

[sdowney717]

But the younger son had inheritance before going out into the world. So if being part of the family again is representative of salvation then he started off saved as he was part of the family. So that would indicate that if the time with the pigs was man unsaved, and the time coming back is man saved...then what is the time before man was unsaved?
Also again what then does the brother represent if this is a picture of salvation?
Also look at the previous two parables. If you are going to use them as examples of salvation as well, then God in those parables went out to seek that which was lost, the father in this case did not go and seek that which was lost.

Simply God extends his kindness to the dead son. God causes all people to be able to live breath and have their being. And provides for the sparrow, the green grass, the flowers in the fields, all creation, that includes people. God cause the sun to shine on all and the rain, God is good to all yet all do not return His kindness.

Romans 2
3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

The parable shows the dead son squanders what God gives him. So too all lost people waste the life, the good things God gives them.

Jesus tells us God cares for the creation
26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?

28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

 

[brotherjerry]

I give you that. Lie is a harsh word and I don't often use it. It is also inflammatory around here and I apologize to anyone who may have been upset that read that. I am editing that now.