The snare of devotion to Mary.

[bbbbbbb]

There were no denominations, but only the Catholic Church in the early centuries which professed belief in Mary's mediatory role even before the Church ruled on the canon of Scripture. Sacred Tradition is the unwritten word of God (cf. Jn. 16:12-13).

Our salvation was accomplished by Jesus Christ our Lord. His passion and death were more than sufficient to make satisfaction for the sins of the world and ransom souls from the debt of sin and death. But in His wisdom and mercy, God willed that the Son's work of salvation be accomplished through the collaboration of a woman, while always honouring her free will (cf. Gal 4:4). God initially revealed His plan of redemption as one of collaboration between the Divine and the woman of promise when He said to the serpent: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed: she shall crush your head ..." (cf. Gen 3:15). This verse prophetically foreshadows Mary with her divine Son in the promise of victory over the serpent and what it had wrought. This first Messianic prophecy reveals God's intention that the woman share in the same enmity (total opposition) between herself and the serpent as does her offspring, our Lord and Saviour. This great battle and victory over the serpent foreshadows the divine work of salvation by the Son with his mother's intimate collaboration with him in his saving work. The theme of the free woman of promise which finds fulfilment in Mary as God's collaborator in His plan of redemption recurs in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. The collaboration or cooperation between the divine Son and the Mother does not exist on an equal level, since Mary is only human. Her participation in her Son's work of salvation is secondary and subordinate. Her association takes nothing away from her Son's glory, for the Father does not will that human beings be completely passive in attaining their salvation. God wills to give His children a share in His attributes and works in order to be saved. It is in his humanity that Jesus acts as the one Mediator between God and humankind; and since our Lord has taken his flesh and blood from his mother to share in our humanity, Mary can act as our Mediatrix as a participant with him in the dispensation of grace which Christ alone has merited for us through the Incarnation. Mary claimed the maternal right of association when she freely consented to be the mother of our Lord. Without this consent, the Source of all grace would not have come into the world. Mary has acted as our Mediatrix from the moment she first pronounced her fiat to the angel Gabriel (cf. Lk 1:38).

Then Uzziah said to her, “O daughter, you are blessed by the Most High God above all other women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth, who has guided you to cut off the head of the leader of our enemies. Your praise will never depart from the hearts of those who remember the power of God. May God grant this to be a perpetual honor to you, and may he reward you with blessings, because you risked your own life when our nation was brought low, and you averted our ruin, walking in the straight path before our God.” And all the people said, “Amen. Amen.”
Judith 13, 18-20

And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.”
Luke 1, 41-45

Mary's co-redemptive role with her Son in his redemptive work emerged as an important theme in the early Church starting with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus in the 2nd century. They used the image of Jesus being the new Adam and Mary as the new Eve. The life of grace that the first Adam and the first Eve had jointly lost for humankind was jointly regained by the second Adam and the second Eve. The virgin Eve, by her disobedience to God the Father, morally cooperated with Adam in the sin that forfeited the life of grace for the human family (cf. Gen 3:6); the Virgin Mary, on the other hand, in her obedience to the will of the Father, morally cooperated with her divine Son - the new Adam - in his humanity in the salvation of humankind (cf. Lk 1:38). Mary's unequalled participation in the world's redemption and reconciliation with God as the new Eve and helpmate of the new Adam was a universal belief of the one Apostolic Catholic Church from the beginning. By the 4th century, the Church Fathers showed a more profound and articulated understanding of Mary's mediatory role in the economy of salvation. This is centuries long before the so-called reformers put the terms 'sola fide' and 'sola-Christo'- into God's mouth while establishing their own churches.

"With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world."
Ephraem, Syri opera graeca et latin, v. 3 [A.D. 373]

Jesus is the one (heis) mediator between God and the human race in uniqueness (cf. 1 Tim 2:5-6). But he is not the one and only (monos) mediator (cf. 1 Tim 2:1-4). All baptized Christians are called to actively participate in the one mediation of Christ by their prayers and sacrifices for others as 'stewards of grace'. Mary, however, was called to participate in her Son's mediation in a unique and highly privileged way like no other human being in salvation history. Whereas we may mediate Christ to others in an evangelical way, Mary did much more by having been placed between the Divine Word and the entire human race when the angel appeared to her. Her consent invited the Saviour into the world helping make our participation in Christ's mediation possible. Christ took his human nature from Mary because she had already conceived him in her heart, so Augustine believed. Mary's participation in her Son's mediation was of universal proportion. Thus the title Mediatrix of all Grace befits her. By having become the "God-bearer" (Theotokos) she thereby mediates the author of all grace, Jesus Christ. It is through the Incarnation that our Lord has merited all the graces necessary for our salvation. But without faith working through love (cf. Gal 5:6), the application of divine grace is void. Scripture confirms the vital significance of Mary's cooperation with God's grace for the spiritual benefit of humankind in the words of Elizabeth: "Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled" (Lk 1:45).

"Mediatrix of all graces" is also a fitting title for Mary in light of Luke 1:41, where the physical presence of Mary (the sound of her greeting) mediates grace to the unborn John the Baptist, by bringing to John the presence of the unborn Saviour, resulting in the sanctification of the Baptist. At the Wedding of Cana (cf. John 2:1-11), we again see Mary's mediation, and, most significantly, we see the effects of her mediation: "This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed in him" (John 2:11). It was through his mother's mediation that Jesus chose to begin his public ministry in the shadow of the cross. And as our Lord was dying on the cross, he gives to his mother the new role of Mother of all Christians: "Woman, behold, your son!...Behold, your mother!" (John 19:26) Jesus calls his mother woman in light of the first Messianic prophecy: "I shall put enmity between you and the woman ... She shall crush your head..." (cf. Gen 3:15) At the Lord's command the Woman of Promise becomes the mother of all the spiritually living - the new Eve and universal mother of all peoples who is called to exercise her supernatural responsibilities as our spiritual Mother. In effect Mary has the task of nourishing her children, and she does this by mediating the graces of the Redemption her divine Son has merited for humankind. Hence, she is "Mediatrix of all Graces" by her singular maternal right.


And coming to her the angel said: "Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you."
Luke 1, 28

PAX

You happen to believe that Sacred Tradition is the unwritten Word of God. So do the EO, the OO, the Copts, and many others. However, their Sacred Traditions, which they also claim to have been divinely spoken by Jesus Christ, differ from and frequently contradict other Sacred Traditions. Other that sheer force of faith, is there any objective means of determining which "Sacred Tradition" is factually true, if any?

 

[patricius79]

You happen to believe that Sacred Tradition is the unwritten Word of God. So do the EO, the OO, the Copts, and many others. However, their Sacred Traditions, which they also claim to have been divinely spoken by Jesus Christ, differ from and frequently contradict other Sacred Traditions. Other that sheer force of faith, is there any objective means of determining which "Sacred Tradition" is factually true, if any?

The Bible says to "hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter" (2 Thes 2:15). So any Christian group denying that Scripture couldn't be the true Church.

Likewise, any group denying that the Mother of God is the Mediatrix of all Graces could not be the true Church, though they may still be in an imperfect communion with it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Bible says to "hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter" (2 Thes 2:15). So any Christian group denying that Scripture couldn't be the true Church.

Likewise, any group denying that the Mother of God is the Mediatrix of all Graces could not be the true Church, though they may still be in an imperfect communion with it.

Absolutely. Your problem is that you have no verifiable proof that any of your Oral Tradition is actually what was orally transmitted. Or, more positively, you have exactly as much proof as do the EO, OO, and Copts and all other churches which claim a unique Oral Tradition which just happens to contradict yours. As I am sure you are aware, they say the very same things about you.

So, honestly, why should I believe any one of them and not you?

 

[justinangel]

You happen to believe that Sacred Tradition is the unwritten Word of God. So do the EO, the OO, the Copts, and many others. However, their Sacred Traditions, which they also claim to have been divinely spoken by Jesus Christ, differ from and frequently contradict other Sacred Traditions. Other that sheer force of faith, is there any objective means of determining which "Sacred Tradition" is factually true, if any?

Just as with the Bible, the written word of God, there are countless Protestant denominations that differ in essential matters of doctrine based on different interpretations of God's word. To objectively determine which traditions are truly apostolic, one must read the Church Fathers with honesty beginning with what they understood the Church to be. The different traditions we have is the result of rejecting the primacy of Peter conferred on the Bishop of Rome (courtesy of rogue bishops) whose appointment was chiefly for the purpose of preserving a unity of faith. This Petrine primacy was recognized and accepted by the Church Fathers and Councils, since it was the norm for the Church from the beginning, which is evident by how much focus is put on Peter in the NT.

It was in 449 A.D. that the Monophysite heretical bishops (who held that Jesus had only one nature that was divine) declared Monophysitism to be the orthodox doctrine of the Catholic Church. As a result, numerous orthodox Eastern bishops were deposed, including Bishop Flavian of Constantinople, who appealed to the Bishop of Rome to be restored to their sees. Pope Leo the Great urged the new Emperor, Marcianus, to call the Council of Chalcedon to condemn the decisions of the "Robber Council". The Pope’s teaching, called the Tome of Leo, was read at the Council, which proclaimed: “This is the Faith of our fathers! Peter has spoken in the person of Leo.” However, Patriarch Dioscorus of Alexandria refused to accept the Council’s decision and withdrew, taking the entire Egyptian and Ethiopian delegation with him. Because of this, numerous Monophysite communities in the Middle East broke off to form independent bodies. Among them were the Coptic (Egyptian) church, the Abyssinian (Ethiopian) church, the Jacobite (Syrian) church, the Armenian church, and the Syro-Malankar (Indian) church. Hence, the problem isn't with sacred Tradition. Schisms have occurred on account of the pride of sinful religious men who broke from the Apostolic Tradition and substituted it for their own tradition. The 16th century was no different.

PAX

 

[bbbbbbb]

Just as with the Bible, the written word of God, there are countless Protestant denominations that differ in essential matters of doctrine based on different interpretations of God's word. To objectively determine which traditions are truly apostolic, one must read the Church Fathers with honesty beginning with what they understood the Church to be. The different traditions we have is the result of rejecting the primacy of Peter conferred on the Bishop of Rome (courtesy of rogue bishops) whose appointment was chiefly for the purpose of preserving a unity of faith. This Petrine primacy was recognized and accepted by the Church Fathers and Councils, since it was the norm for the Church from the beginning, which is evident by how much focus is put on Peter in the NT.

It was in 449 A.D. that the Monophysite heretical bishops (who held that Jesus had only one nature that was divine) declared Monophysitism to be the orthodox doctrine of the Catholic Church. As a result, numerous orthodox Eastern bishops were deposed, including Bishop Flavian of Constantinople, who appealed to the Bishop of Rome to be restored to their sees. Pope Leo the Great urged the new Emperor, Marcianus, to call the Council of Chalcedon to condemn the decisions of the "Robber Council". The Pope’s teaching, called the Tome of Leo, was read at the Council, which proclaimed: “This is the Faith of our fathers! Peter has spoken in the person of Leo.” However, Patriarch Dioscorus of Alexandria refused to accept the Council’s decision and withdrew, taking the entire Egyptian and Ethiopian delegation with him. Because of this, numerous Monophysite communities in the Middle East broke off to form independent bodies. Among them were the Coptic (Egyptian) church, the Abyssinian (Ethiopian) church, the Jacobite (Syrian) church, the Armenian church, and the Syro-Malankar (Indian) church. Hence, the problem isn't with sacred Tradition. Schisms have occurred on account of the pride of sinful religious men who broke from the Apostolic Tradition and substituted it for their own tradition. The 16th century was no different.

PAX

You wrote "The 16th century was no different." and I agree completely. The Council of Trent is a perfect example of religious men who broke from the Apostolic Tradition and substituted it for their own tradition.

 

[justinangel]

You wrote "The 16th century was no different." and I agree completely. The Council of Trent is a perfect example of religious men who broke from the Apostolic Tradition and substituted it for their own tradition.

 

[patricius79]

Absolutely. Your problem is that you have no verifiable proof that any of your Oral Tradition is actually what was orally transmitted. Or, more positively, you have exactly as much proof as do the EO, OO, and Copts and all other churches which claim a unique Oral Tradition which just happens to contradict yours. As I am sure you are aware, they say the very same things about you.

So, honestly, why should I believe any one of them and not you?

Or why should we believe your oral traditions, such as your idea that there is no way to discern which group is the true Church, or your idea that the Council of Trent deviated from Apostolic Tradition?

Do you agree that Christianity is based on both Written and Oral Traditions, as Scripture says? (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

The Catholic Church's teachings about the Mother of God are extremely beautiful, and--like the N.T. Canon--confirmed by the Papacy, upon which the Church is built.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

When a woman gives birth to an infant parts of the infants DNA will remain within the woman for the rest of her life. Mary Theotokos gave birth to God.

 

[justinangel]

You wrote "The 16th century was no different." and I agree completely. The Council of Trent is a perfect example of religious men who broke from the Apostolic Tradition and substituted it for their own tradition.

Are you serious? Did the fathers of the Council of Nicaea l substitute the Apostolic Tradition for their own tradition, or did the errant Alexandrian priest Arius? You're really making no sense. All the Protestant heresies which the ecumenical Council of Trent condemned by divine authority contravened the Apostolic Tradition- beginning with justification by faith alone. My advice to you is to read the Church Fathers, starting with Clement and Ignatius, and see for yourself - if you're honest that is.

We are justified by grace through faith and works - not by faith alone.

Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
James 2, 24

“Be pleasing to him whose soldiers you are, and whose pay you receive. May none of you be found to be a deserter. Let your baptism be your armament, your faith your helmet, your love your spear, your endurance your full suit of armour. Let your works be as your deposited withholdings, so that you may receive the back-pay which has accrued to you.”
Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to Polycarp 6:2 [A.D. 110]

We are not declared righteous by having Christ's alien righteousness imputed to us. Our justification is brought about by a real interior transformation by the infusion of sanctifying grace into the soul through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
1 John 3, 7, 10

We have learned from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man’s actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed”
Justin Martyr, First Apology 43 [A.D. 151]

Justification is an on-going process, not a one time event when a person initially accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour.

For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
2 Corinthians 2, 15

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
3, 18

Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day
4, 16

"Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time."
Didache, 16 [A.D. 90]

Perseverance of the saints or eternal security - and its corollary "Once-saved-always-saved" are not part of the Apostolic Tradition. They are "traditions of men".

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Romans 11, 22

"Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, 'For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.'"
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 [A.D. 180]

A just God did not predestine (predetermine) some people to be saved (the elect) while leaving the rest in their sins to receive eternal damnation for their transgressions (Double predestination). God does not choose who to save or punish according to his own purposes apart from any conditions or qualities related to those persons. God does take the person's interior disposition and merits into account when He judges their soul. Christ's atonement is unlimited and salvation is conditional. Unconditional election and limited atonement are not part of the Apostolic Tradition.

But if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 1, 7

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
2, 2


And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Saviour of the world.
4, 14

“Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment,’ and the justice of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment”
Hippolytus, Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]

Calvin taught that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect) to have them overcome their resistance to obeying His call and come to faith in Christ and the Gospel. This is his false doctrine of Irresistible Grace which stems from sola Gratia, a doctrine that precludes any cooperation on our part with God's grace because of our totally corrupt nature (total depravity). However, the Catholic Church has always taught since the apostolic era that our works can be morally good before regeneration and justification at Baptism, but not that they can justify us before God or be meritorious for our salvation. After all, we aren't sinless. Good works that complete our justification once we have been regenerated are meritorious in God's sight and lead to salvation, since they are done in charity and grace. An important part of the equation is our freedom to cooperate with divine grace and collaborate with the Holy Spirt. We are saved by grace insofar grace enables us to have faith and do the good works which God has prepared for us to do in order to attain eternal life. What Catholics believe belongs to the Apostolic Tradition and was reaffirmed by the Council of Trent.

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Corinthians 7, 1

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
Colossians 3, 5

“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. 'For God,' saith [the Scripture], 'resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.' Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words."
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30 (A.D. 98]

“Let every one train himself to righteousness, mold himself to self-restraint, prepare himself for the contest, equip himself for virtue . . . [and] in his uprightness acknowledge the true and only God, may cast away pleasures, by the attractions of which the lofty soul is depressed to the earth, may hold fast innocence, may be of service to as many as possible, may gain for himself incorruptible treasures by good works, that he may be able, with God for his judge, to gain for the merits of his virtue either the crown of faith, or the reward of immortality”
Lactantius, Epitome of the Divine Institutes 73 [A.D. 317]

Finally, Christ is not the only (monos) mediator (sola Christo). All Christians participate in his mediation as adopted sons and daughters of God who partake in the divine life. We are not passive spectators who leave everything up to our Lord. Paul uses heis instead of monos in 1 Timothy 2:5.

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—... This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1-4

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
1 Peter 2, 9

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth."
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 [A.D. 350]

Ignorance is bliss.

Arius before the Council of Nicaea

The Council of Orange: We are saved by grace through faith and works, and not by works alone.

The Council of Trent: We are saved by grace through faith and works, and not by faith alone.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Or why should we believe your oral traditions, such as your idea that there is no way to discern which group is the true Church, or your idea that the Council of Trent deviated from Apostolic Tradition?

Do you agree that Christianity is based on both Written and Oral Traditions, as Scripture says? (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

The Catholic Church's teachings about the Mother of God are extremely beautiful, and--like the N.T. Canon--confirmed by the Papacy, upon which the Church is built.

I simply pointed out that your Oral Traditions have no more, or less, validity than any Oral Traditions espoused by any other denomination. It becomes a matter of personal preference as to which Oral Traditions one chooses to believe. In a related matter, your own Magisterium has evolved your Oral Traditions over time so that what is considered to be Oral Tradition today in your denomination is certainly not the same as it was in the ninth century.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Are you serious? Did the fathers of the Council of Nicaea l substitute the Apostolic Tradition for their own tradition, or did the errant Alexandrian priest Arius? You're really making no sense. All the Protestant heresies which the ecumenical Council of Trent condemned by divine authority contravened the Apostolic Tradition- beginning with justification by faith alone. My advice to you is to read the Church Fathers, starting with Clement and Ignatius, and see for yourself - if you're honest that is.

We are justified by grace through faith and works - not by faith alone.

Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
James 2, 24

“Be pleasing to him whose soldiers you are, and whose pay you receive. May none of you be found to be a deserter. Let your baptism be your armament, your faith your helmet, your love your spear, your endurance your full suit of armour. Let your works be as your deposited withholdings, so that you may receive the back-pay which has accrued to you.”
Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to Polycarp 6:2 [A.D. 110]

We are not declared righteous by having Christ's alien righteousness imputed to us. Our justification is brought about by a real interior transformation by the infusion of sanctifying grace into the soul through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
1 John 3, 7, 10

We have learned from the prophets and we hold it as true that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are distributed according to the merit of each man’s actions. Were this not the case, and were all things to happen according to the decree of fate, there would be nothing at all in our power. If fate decrees that this man is to be good and that one wicked, then neither is the former to be praised nor the latter to be blamed”
Justin Martyr, First Apology 43 [A.D. 151]

Justification is an on-going process, not a one time event when a person initially accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour.

For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
2 Corinthians 2, 15

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
3, 18

Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day
4, 16

"Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time."
Didache, 16 [A.D. 90]

Perseverance of the saints or eternal security - and its corollary "Once-saved-always-saved" are not part of the Apostolic Tradition. They are "traditions of men".

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Romans 11, 22

"Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, 'For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.'"
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 [A.D. 180]

A just God did not predestine (predetermine) some people to be saved (the elect) while leaving the rest in their sins to receive eternal damnation for their transgressions (Double predestination). God does not choose who to save or punish according to his own purposes apart from any conditions or qualities related to those persons. God does take the person's interior disposition and merits into account when He judges their soul. Christ's atonement is unlimited and salvation is conditional. Unconditional election and limited atonement are not part of the Apostolic Tradition.

But if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 1, 7

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
2, 2


And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Saviour of the world.
4, 14

“Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment,’ and the justice of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment”
Hippolytus, Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]

Calvin taught that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect) to have them overcome their resistance to obeying His call and come to faith in Christ and the Gospel. This is his false doctrine of Irresistible Grace which stems from sola Gratia, a doctrine that precludes any cooperation on our part with God's grace because of our totally corrupt nature (total depravity). However, the Catholic Church has always taught since the apostolic era that our works can be morally good before regeneration and justification at Baptism, but not that they can justify us before God or be meritorious for our salvation. After all, we aren't sinless. Good works that complete our justification once we have been regenerated are meritorious in God's sight and lead to salvation, since they are done in charity and grace. An important part of the equation is our freedom to cooperate with divine grace and collaborate with the Holy Spirt. We are saved by grace insofar grace enables us to have faith and do the good works which God has prepared for us to do in order to attain eternal life. What Catholics believe belongs to the Apostolic Tradition and was reaffirmed by the Council of Trent.

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Corinthians 7, 1

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
Colossians 3, 5

“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. 'For God,' saith [the Scripture], 'resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.' Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words."
Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30 (A.D. 98]

“Let every one train himself to righteousness, mold himself to self-restraint, prepare himself for the contest, equip himself for virtue . . . [and] in his uprightness acknowledge the true and only God, may cast away pleasures, by the attractions of which the lofty soul is depressed to the earth, may hold fast innocence, may be of service to as many as possible, may gain for himself incorruptible treasures by good works, that he may be able, with God for his judge, to gain for the merits of his virtue either the crown of faith, or the reward of immortality”
Lactantius, Epitome of the Divine Institutes 73 [A.D. 317]

Finally, Christ is not the only (monos) mediator (sola Christo). All Christians participate in his mediation as adopted sons and daughters of God who partake in the divine life. We are not passive spectators who leave everything up to our Lord. Paul uses heis instead of monos in 1 Timothy 2:5.

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—... This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1-4

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
1 Peter 2, 9

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth."
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 [A.D. 350]

Ignorance is bliss.

Arius before the Council of Nicaea

The Council of Orange: We are saved by grace through faith and works, and not by works alone.

The Council of Trent: We are saved by grace through faith and works, and not by faith alone.

My goodness! I simply agreed with you and you took such umbrage with my agreement. I hate to imagine what would have happened had I disagreed with you.

 

[patricius79]

I simply pointed out that your Oral Traditions have no more, or less, validity than any Oral Traditions espoused by any other denomination. It becomes a matter of personal preference as to which Oral Traditions one chooses to believe. In a related matter, your own Magisterium has evolved your Oral Traditions over time so that what is considered to be Oral Tradition today in your denomination is certainly not the same as it was in the ninth century.

Thank you for sharing your oral traditions openly. But how do you know that they are true?

I find that people who reject the oral Word of God and Marian devotion also have trouble with accepting explicit Scriptures.

Do you believe that we must eat Christ's flesh and drink His Blood?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thank you for sharing your oral traditions openly. But how do you know that they are true?

I find that people who reject the oral Word of God and Marian devotion also have trouble with accepting explicit Scriptures.

Do you believe that we must eat Christ's flesh and drink His Blood?

Cute. Very cute. Asserting that my posts are somehow an oral tradition. Actually, if it is any form of tradition it would have been a written tradition because I did not speak it, but wrote. What your denomination and others like yours assert is that there is some form of scripture which was never written, ever, but has been passed along orally. That is what any oral tradition consists of. There is absolutely no means of determining the validity, or lack thereof, of it. It is simply a matter of someone saying that I heard this from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone, etc., etc., etc., all the way to someone who heard it from Jesus Christ.

Given the fact that even your own Church does not actually believe that in the mass the bread becomes physical flesh and the wine does not become physical blood, I think even you cannot literally eat the physical flesh and drink the physical blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[patricius79]

Cute. Very cute. Asserting that my posts are somehow an oral tradition. Actually, if it is any form of tradition it would have been a written tradition because I did not speak it, but wrote. What your denomination and others like yours assert is that there is some form of scripture which was never written, ever, but has been passed along orally. That is what any oral tradition consists of. There is absolutely no means of determining the validity, or lack thereof, of it. It is simply a matter of someone saying that I heard this from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone, etc., etc., etc., all the way to someone who heard it from Jesus Christ.

Where does the Bible say all you are saying here?

Do you agree that 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is the living word of God? What about Isaiah 59:21?

I believe that Mary conceived Jesus and that Jesus is God.

I think we should believe His words in Scripture, such as John 6:53, John 6:55

 

[bbbbbbb]

Where does the Bible say all you are saying here?

Do you agree that 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is the living word of God? What about Isaiah 59:21?

I believe that Mary conceived Jesus and that Jesus is God.

I think we should believe His words in Scripture, such as John 6:53, John 6:55

John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”


35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”


41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”


52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”


59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

Feel free to show me where in the entire passage Jesus is talking about the Eucharist.

 

[patricius79]

John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”


35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”


41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”


52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”


59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

.

Beautiful. It says that the bread which He gives is His Flesh for the life of the world. I believe that Christ's Flesh profits for salvation, so that we must eat it to have eternal life (John 6:53)

51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh. 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Do you agree that 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is the living word of God? What about Isaiah 59:21?

Can you explain how these verses fit with the oral traditions you gave above, regarding your belief that oral tradition is unreliable?

I know that since Jesus is God, that would make the creature Mary the Mother of God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Beautiful. It says that the bread which He gives is His Flesh for the life of the world. I believe that Christ's Flesh profits for salvation, so that we must eat it to have eternal life (John 6:53)

51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh. 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Do you agree that 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is the living word of God? What about Isaiah 59:21?

Can you explain how these verses fit with the oral traditions you gave above, regarding your belief that oral tradition is unreliable?

I know that since Jesus is God, that would make the creature Mary the Mother of God.

Well, I see that you cannot find any reference to the Eucharist in this passage. Thus, it is absurd to conclude that Jesus was speaking of it to the folks in Capernaum.

Rather, Jesus, when questioned about His perplexing statements, replied, It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

 

[patricius79]

Well, I see that you cannot find any reference to the Eucharist in this passage. Thus, it is absurd to conclude that Jesus was speaking of it to the folks in Capernaum.

Rather, Jesus, when questioned about His perplexing statements, replied, It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Amen.

Do you believe the oral tradition that Christ's Flesh profits nothing?

Do you agree that 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is the living word of God? What about Isaiah 59:21?

I love the Mother of God. Since Jesus is God, should we not honor His Mother?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Amen.

Do you believe the oral tradition that Christ's Flesh profits nothing?

Do you agree that 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is the living word of God? What about Isaiah 59:21?

I love the Mother of God. Since Jesus is God, should we not honor His Mother?

I am giving the written Word of God, not somebody's represenation of an oral tradition. Jesus Himself said, It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. If you don't agree with it, then you are free to disbelieve any and all of Holy Scripture, as many do. I cannot stop you in your unbelief, can I?

 

[patricius79]

I am giving the written Word of God, not somebody's represenation of an oral tradition. Jesus Himself said, It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. If you don't agree with it, then you are free to disbelieve any and all of Holy Scripture, as many do. I cannot stop you in your unbelief, can I?

I agree that the flesh profits nothing.

What I'm asking is: do you believe Christ's Flesh profits nothing?

If so, that clearly contradicts Christ's statement that He gives His flesh for the life of the world, and that we must eat His Flesh.

Likewise, one cannot deny that Mary is the Mother of God without deny God's Word, which says that Jesus is God.