This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[ToBeLoved]

Please read verses 11 and following: clearly Paul is assuring Gentiles that salvation (and other benefits) are not strictly a Jewish thing.

We need to let Paul say what he wants to say. And clearly (from verse 11 and following) the problem here is not a belief that "good works save" but rather the belief that Jews and Jews only are the beneficiaries to the exclusion of Gentiles.

Are you going to tell me that in verses 11 and following the issue is not the matter of whether Gentiles, too, are included in God's family as well as Jews?

The issue of "good works" is nowhere in sight in verses 11 and following.

If you want to discuss scripture, list the scripture in your post so I can read it along with your comments. Makes it a lot easier to follow.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've already explained that it does no harm whatsoever to remind even the faithful
of their responsibilities, etc. ... in an effort to ensure their CONTINUED faithfulness!

Why didn't Paul never bother to warn the unfaithful then?

News Flash ... everything must be continued ... nothing is a one-time deal.
Endurance in the faith (and all that being faithful entails) is a must.

What is your claim about 'everything must be continued' taught in Scripture? And what is it "a must" FOR?

This is strictly "your reasonable service" (Romans 12:1).
Hope this helps someone!

It is confusing, until the questions are answered.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"If Ephesians was only to the faithful, and not the unfaithful believers, why did Paul include a warning in ch 5? Why warn the faithful, while ignoring the unfaithful. In fact, his warnings were to those considered unfaithful."

Reminding the faithful of all of their reasonable spiritual services (Romans 12:1)
is always an excellent way to spend one's time!

I don't see how this answers my question.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What is this idea that God measures out grace anyway? Is there a better salvation in comparison to the ultimate salvation?

I still do not understand what more can one person get from God's grace that another person cannot get.

Exactly !!

 

[ZacharyB]

What is your claim about 'everything must be continued' taught in Scripture?
And what is it "a must" FOR?
It is confusing, until the questions are answered.

lol
Previously, I have presented the 8 verses (or so) which clearly state ...
One must endure with his/her faith ...
until the end of his/her life ...
to receive eternal life!

I think the "must" refers to eternal life!
How many times must the qvestions be answered to end the confusion?
Please respond with a number in dozens. Tanks!
.

 

[brotherjerry]

Why didn't Paul never bother to warn the unfaithful then?


What is your claim about 'everything must be continued' taught in Scripture? And what is it "a must" FOR?


It is confusing, until the questions are answered.

No sense asking...they will more than likely refer to the same verses they have posted before. And even though they have been shown to in error...not by your words or my words, but the words of the Bible, they will not accept it. God's grace gave us a Savior and a path to salvation through the shedding of Christ's blood for ever person that is in this world. The Bible teaches that...not me, not you, but the Bible. Proponents of any sort of "election" or "ability" or anything like that continue to ignore the verses that explain that Christ died to save the world. When asked to rectify their doctrine with these simple verses like John 3:16 they can't, or won't.

And when asked how much sin does it take to lose salvation...the answer is "the Spirit knows"..you get the same when you ask how much good does a person have to do in order to get salvation back... But yet the Bible once again...not me...not you...but the Bible clearly tells us that it was written so that we may know we have eternal life...so it is for us to know that we have Eternal Life, not just the Holy Spirit. So if we can't know, then the doctrine is unbiblical and should be cast aside. And if we get a list from someone (don't hold your breath) then ultimately have to cast that aside as well...for then we have a list of works to get our salvation and we all know that is not Biblical. And if they say it is different for each one...there is no Biblical basis for that either. Plus it leads to boasting as one would seem to have to do more than the other. So no matter how it gets sliced...it is unbiblical and should be cast aside.

 

[sdowney717]

No sense asking...they will more than likely refer to the same verses they have posted before. And even though they have been shown to in error...not by your words or my words, but the words of the Bible, they will not accept it. God's grace gave us a Savior and a path to salvation through the shedding of Christ's blood for ever person that is in this world. The Bible teaches that...not me, not you, but the Bible. Proponents of any sort of "election" or "ability" or anything like that continue to ignore the verses that explain that Christ died to save the world. When asked to rectify their doctrine with these simple verses like John 3:16 they can't, or won't.

And when asked how much sin does it take to lose salvation...the answer is "the Spirit knows"..you get the same when you ask how much good does a person have to do in order to get salvation back... But yet the Bible once again...not me...not you...but the Bible clearly tells us that it was written so that we may know we have eternal life...so it is for us to know that we have Eternal Life, not just the Holy Spirit. So if we can't know, then the doctrine is unbiblical and should be cast aside. And if we get a list from someone (don't hold your breath) then ultimately have to cast that aside as well...for then we have a list of works to get our salvation and we all know that is not Biblical. And if they say it is different for each one...there is no Biblical basis for that either. Plus it leads to boasting as one would seem to have to do more than the other. So no matter how it gets sliced...it is unbiblical and should be cast aside.

John 3:16 is quite clear that whomsoever believes will not perish but have everlasting life.
Clearly though you deny that there is a reason for the WHY that whomsoever believes, which is what all the biblical teaching of election by grace is about,

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

CLEARLY it is for the believing ones that Christ dies, hence Christ dies not for the unbelieving ones but for those that believe.
So that those who believe will not perish but have everlasting life.

God does not say
15 that whoever does not believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever does not believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

But that is what you believe is it not?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why? To what purpose?
Who is God displaying His mercy too?

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" Ephesians 2:1-10

Regarding to whom this mercy is displayed to in the ages to come - there are, I suppose, at least 4 situations that come to mind.

Future creations of the kind He did here on earth. In which case, just humanly surmising, He may substitute the things learned in this age (mercy, grace, justice against rebellion, wrath etc.) for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil through which we learned these things.

Different kinds of creation from this earthly kind (angelic, totally different from angels and me etc.).

The inhabitants of earth in Christ's Millennial reign.

The nations which are referred to in the book of Revelation. Revelation chapter 21: "
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb. (US) 10 "And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God..........24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

But then - it doesn't depend on me or anyone else either finding who may have God's mercy displayed to in scripture or ruminating about what may be in the ages to come that has not been revealed to us.

What is important is that we realize that both His mercy and wrath will be on display in the ages to come and that (it doesn't seem) this whole "knowledge of good and evil" encompassed age will not have to be repeated - EVER (as I read things).

 

[ToBeLoved]

John 3:16 is quite clear that whomsoever believes will not perish but have everlasting life.
Clearly though you deny that there is a reason for the WHY that whomsoever believes, which is what all the biblical teaching of election by grace is about,

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

CLEARLY it is for the believing ones that Christ dies, hence Christ dies not for the unbelieving ones but for those that believe.
So that those who believe will not perish but have everlasting life.

God does not say
15 that whoever does not believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever does not believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

But that is what you believe is it not?

I am not seeing the part where you said that it CLEARLY is for the believing ones that Christ dies. I do not think that the scripture you shared shows that clearly at all.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I think the situation is more troubling. In a decade of participating in these boards, I have never, repeat never, seen anyone change their position on any matter of major doctrine. ....................................The proof is in the pudding - no one on these boards ever their minds.

I am living proof that your observations here are not based on fact.

 

[brotherjerry]

No Downey it is not what I believe. I believe what the Bible says.
God loved THE WORLD. (vs 16)
Christ came to save THE WORLD (vs 17)

Under election or any form of it...Christ came to condemn the world except those selected.

The Whosoever is not conditional...it is whosoever is in the world that believes.

And what do they get if they believe? eternal life...eternal life is the one thing that has a condition on receiving it...whosoever believes.

See it is not Christs death that saves us. Christ's death is God's grace. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Romans 3 says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" That is clear...ALL. It goes on "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith" Sounds a bit like Ephesians don't it? But in the same sentence we have all that have sinned and Christ's blood being the propitiation of sins...the payment for the wages of sin.

Christ paid the blood sacrifice offering required for atonement of sins. He did it for the world as the Bible says, not for select people in the world, but the world. So no one has to make a sacrifice any more. This does not mean that all are saved. Salvation comes through faith...you have to believe in order to receive that salvation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think the situation is more troubling. In a decade of participating in these boards, I have never, repeat never, seen anyone change their position on any matter of major doctrine. This cannot be right - if there are indeed clear Biblical truths as we all seem to claim (of course, in defending our position), lots of people should indeed be changing their minds as they realize they are mistaken about something.

But this never happens.

I have heard psychologists recently report that human beings find it incredibly hard to be objective. We cling so tightly to our presently held beliefs that we lose all ability to rationally consider evidence that challenges our views. Or we invent wildly irrational explanations to force-fit a challenging text into our present belief system. Look at what people do to Romans 2:6-7 - which clearly states good works do matter unto salvation. You should see the backflips people do to effectively rework this text to mean something other than what it clearly says.

The proof is in the pudding - no one on these boards ever their minds.

Usually when we find some piece of evidence by science or scholars to be true it is because we see in ourself whatever it is that they are saying.

Using words like 'never' and 'ever' and other absolutes usually shows a lack of understanding as there are so few absolutes about human beings and their thoughts. What it reflects, IMHO is a lack of understanding of the complexity of people and human beings. Simple minded people like to say 'always', but very little is 'always'.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I know Marvin won't respond to this, but a point needs to be made about 1 Cor 2:14 and what the natural man cannot understand. It cannot be the gospel. Why not? Because of all the evidence of unbelievers who do understand and reject the gospel. I've read many writers of current news-type magazines (Time, Life, etc) who can clearly describe the Biblical way to be saved, all the while rejecting the truth of it. That alone proves that 1 Cor 2:14 isn't about understanding the gospel unless one has been regenerated.

Hopefully just this one time - I'll go against my better instincts here and comment on this strictly for the benefit of those reading along.

FreeGrace2 knows my thoughts on this because they have been explained to him in the past. I suppose that he just thinks that he can ignore what I have said in the past and that no one will remember.

I do not believe that natural man cannot understand the message of the gospel in the sense that they do not understand words. I don't believe that the hearers of the parables could not understand the words either.

It is the personal application of those messages which they cannot grasp. The need for a personal application of either a parable or the gospel itself is lost on them because they have not agreed to the sin of and repented of their personal conduct as sinners who are worthy only of the wrath of God.

Once again, no one has any excuse. Rom 1:20

Another subject with which Marvin and I are at odds. I fully agree and embrace his final sentence above about the working of the Holy Spirit, which is by grace, prior to saving faith being exercised. What I continue to disagree with him about is this working equals regeneration.

This is like the concept of wind and natural human birth - as Jesus clearly explained to us.
The wind blows where it will and we see the results of it's presence. But that is not the wind.

We see birth as a result of generation already having taken place. The birth is not the generation.

FreeGrace2 has disagreed with my view on this in the past. He does not believe that the human soul exists before birth. We have discussed his views on abortion in the past and I will not do it again. If a person can't figure out from scripture when the incarnation took place (when Jesus became fully human) I can't lead him to the water again and again and make him drink.

The working of the Holy Spirit is His ministry of conviction, as noted in John 16:8,9. And we know that people can resist the Holy Spirit, as noted in Acts 7:51.

I have never said that a person cannot kick against the goads.

But eventually all those who are taught of God will come to the Savior.

I haven't found any Scripture that indicates that God measures out grace.

Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; Romans 12:6-7

Scripture is real clear about Christ dying for everyone.

I have never said otherwise.

I do not believe in limited atonement as often taught by Calvinists both here in the forum and elsewhere.

 

[sdowney717]

I am not seeing the part where you said that it CLEARLY is for the believing ones that Christ dies. I do not think that the scripture you shared shows that clearly at all.

Consider no where in John 3:16 does it mention unbelievers, they are excluded from the text.

 

[sdowney717]

No Downey it is not what I believe. I believe what the Bible says.
God loved THE WORLD. (vs 16)
Christ came to save THE WORLD (vs 17)

Under election or any form of it...Christ came to condemn the world except those selected.

The Whosoever is not conditional...it is whosoever is in the world that believes.

And what do they get if they believe? eternal life...eternal life is the one thing that has a condition on receiving it...whosoever believes.

See it is not Christs death that saves us. Christ's death is God's grace. Because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Romans 3 says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" That is clear...ALL. It goes on "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith" Sounds a bit like Ephesians don't it? But in the same sentence we have all that have sinned and Christ's blood being the propitiation of sins...the payment for the wages of sin.

Christ paid the blood sacrifice offering required for atonement of sins. He did it for the world as the Bible says, not for select people in the world, but the world. So no one has to make a sacrifice any more. This does not mean that all are saved. Salvation comes through faith...you have to believe in order to receive that salvation.

'Christ paid the blood sacrifice offering required for atonement of sins. ' for BELIEVERS'

The first time God comes in Christ not to condemn but to save who?, but this is only for believers.
Read a little further and it says

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Unbelievers are already condemned because they have not believed, condemned already, this judgment is already been finalized, passed against them. For them their is no forgiveness, no offering, no Christ's death since as they do not believe they are not part of God's New
Covenant. How can they gain anything from Christ's death as they are dead in their sins.

The blood sacrifice is an atonement, a sin offering as following the OT sacrifices, for the forgiveness of sin for believers, yet your say it is the forgiveness of sin for unbelievers, and you seem to have no trouble with that.

In the OC, those who had the atonement were the people called Israel that God called out from the nations to be His own special people.
In the NC, this has been expanded to the entire world, but the restriction is that the atonement, forgiveness of sin is for believers only, and not the whole world.

What your saying, then you must logically conclude the whole world's sins are forgiven in Christ which is not scriptural..

 

[brotherjerry]

Downey,

'Christ paid the blood sacrifice offering required for atonement of sins. ' for BELIEVERS'

So let me ask you this...someone who is not saved today. Tomorrow if he becomes a believer does he have to make a blood sacrifice all over again?
No. Why? Because Christ already paid that price. It was already paid for that unbeliever 2000 years ago. The blood sacrifice is not something that happens when we get saved...it is something that has already happened...for the world. Because of God's grace He paid that price.

The first time God comes in Christ not to condemn but to save who?, but this is only for believers.

No it's not...what does the verse say? Does it say "beleivers", no it says Christ came not to condemn the world, but to save the world. Christ's first coming was for the propitiation of sins...to be the final and perfect sacrifice.

Unbelievers are already condemned because they have not believed, condemned already, this judgment is already been finalized, passed against them. For them their is no forgiveness, no offering, no Christ's death since as they do not believe they are not part of God's New
Covenant. How can they gain anything from Christ's death as they are dead in their sins.

Then by your own statemenst you and I are condemned. For we were not present when Christ died and was resurrected. We were once unbelievers, condemned. But I am sure you will agree we were not finalized.

The blood sacrifice is an atonement, a sin offering as following the OT sacrifices, for the forgiveness of sin for believers, yet your say it is the forgiveness of sin for unbelievers, and you seem to have no trouble with that.

Not quite...anyone could kill an animal on an altar. But one had to ask for forgiveness. It was and still is a two stage event...blood sacrifice and asking of forgiveness (repenting). What God did by His grace was take care of the first part for us...no longer is a blood sacrifice needed...because nothing could be more perfect than Christ. So now we have but one thing to do...believe. Man is not reconciled with God until man asks for forgiveness and accepts Christ. But the price of shedding blood is already taken care of for man.

This is what is spoken of in 1 John 2:2 "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world" Christ paid the sin offering price for the whole world, not just those that were saved with John. That is exactly what John says there. It takes gyrating the verse to get it to say anything different.

In the OC, those who had the atonement were the people called Israel that God called out from the nations to be His own special people.
In the NC, this has been expanded to the entire world, but the restriction is that the atonement, forgiveness of sin is for believers only, and not the whole world.

Again not entirely correct. For someone who is a believer, atonement is not necissary. See you are not understanding the purpose of atonement. It is a reconciliation which even by Websters means "act of causing two people or groups to become friendly again". A believer, someone who is saved, does not need atonement. But an unbeliever is the one who needs atonment. Atonment is for the unbeliever to become a believer. To make things right with God. Those that are already right...don't need atonement.

What your saying, then you must logically conclude the whole world's sins are forgiven in Christ which is not scriptural.

Nope. And I think I have explained it enough to make it clear that this is not what I say, nor is it the logical conclusion. It does indicate that you may not completely understand atonment, however.

 

[Licoricepup]

I see this far too often in Christian community. People that hope to get believers to doubt their eternal salvation and feel as if there's always a chance it shall be lost in something they do.

The bible tells me that once I am a child of God no one will take me from the masters hand. That is God's word and being we are reborn in the spirit we do not make a practice of sinning. We are the Saints, not the sinners. OSAS is God's word and not subject to revocation by man's doubt.

 

[FreeGrace2]

lol
Previously, I have presented the 8 verses (or so) which clearly state ...
One must endure with his/her faith ...
until the end of his/her life ...
to receive eternal life!

I think the "must" refers to eternal life!
How many times must the qvestions be answered to end the confusion?
Please respond with a number in dozens. Tanks!.

OK, what verse says what you've posted in red?

Tanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hopefully just this one time - I'll go against my better instincts here and comment on this strictly for the benefit of those reading along.

FreeGrace2 knows my thoughts on this because they have been explained to him in the past. I suppose that he just thinks that he can ignore what I have said in the past and that no one will remember.

Not even close.

I do not believe that natural man cannot understand the message of the gospel in the sense that they do not understand words. I don't believe that the hearers of the parables could not understand the words either.

Except there is NO connection between the clear gospel message to mankind and the parables of Jesus. None whatsoever. He spoke in parables for the ones who wouldn't believe.

It is the personal application of those messages which they cannot grasp.

One has to assume this refers to both the gospel and parables. Except it cannot refer to the gospel. If one can understand the gospel offer, then one can certainly understand how that applies to themself.

And the very fact that unbeliever do understand the gospel message, and reject it proves those who quote 1 Cor 2:14 to claim that it refers to unbelievers not understanding the gospel are wrong.

The need for a personal application of either a parable or the gospel itself is lost on them because they have not agreed to the sin of and repented of their personal conduct as sinners who are worthy only of the wrath of God.

They can certainly understand the message of the gospel and reject it.

In fact, Scripture tells us that men refuse to believe. That in itself demonstrates understanding and rejecting what they understand.

We see birth as a result of generation already having taken place. The birth is not the generation.

No, we don't see birth as a result of generation. Spiritual birth is immediate; not a process like fertilization of a human and eventual birth. I believe the concepts of being born again, regeneration and spiritual birth to be one and the same thing. You may disagree.

FreeGrace2 has disagreed with my view on this in the past. He does not believe that the human soul exists before birth. We have discussed his views on abortion in the past and I will not do it again. If a person can't figure out from scripture when the incarnation took place (when Jesus became fully human) I can't lead him to the water again and again and make him drink.

There is no evidence in Scripture that God puts a human soul into a fertilized egg. None whatsoever. He certainly does put the soul into the body at some point.

But eventually all those who are taught of God will come to the Savior.

That is not what John 6:45 says. It says those who listen and learn. Not all those who are taught have learned. The teacher can teach all he/she wants, but if a student isn't paying attention, they aren't learning, even though they are being taught.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Consider no where in John 3:16 does it mention unbelievers, they are excluded from the text.

No, the verse is clear about who God loves: the world. The gospel of John frequently refers to unbelievers as the world, and NEVER refers to believers as the world.