This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[FreeGrace2]

I would suggest that one should see throughout Scripture that ...
God's Plan is for full co-operation between Himself and man.

So then, what Christ did on the cross wasn't enough?? God needs man's co-operation in order to save him??

Well, Paul knows better, as seen in his answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED."

Man can only receive God's free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) through belief (Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26).

So, as to your above, we should looking at: relying on God + our performance.

Performance will not save, and if one thinks that he must "help" God in his salvation, he cannot be saved. It's by grace alone through faith. Not grace and faith with works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I want to clarify somethings here for those who may be interested concerning where I differ with most Calvinists and many Arminians and what have you as well.

I do not equate regeneration with the new birth. The two things are certainly related to each other. But they are not the same thing.

I would be very interested in hearing why not. Because the word RE-generation and phrase being born AGAIN seem to indicate meaning the same thing.

The prefix "re-" indicates something occurring AGAIN. And being born again certainly means being born AGAIN.

So, what's the difference between them? What, specifically, has been RE-generated? And what, specifically, been born AGAIN?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would be very interested in hearing why not. Because the word RE-generation and phrase being born AGAIN seem to indicate meaning the same thing.

The prefix "re-" indicates something occurring AGAIN. And being born again certainly means being born AGAIN.

So, what's the difference between them? What, specifically, has been RE-generated? And what, specifically, been born AGAIN?

I would be interested in a detailed explanation of the differences also.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would suggest that one should see throughout Scripture that ...
God's Plan is for full co-operation between Himself and man.
So, as to your above, we should looking at: relying on God + our performance.
Further, believers who do not see that ...
Salvation is gained through grace + co-operation (obedience, endurance, etc.)
... have been spiritually blinded by Satan + the dreaded "doctrines of men".
.

The problem with your little scenario is that besides God giving us the grace of salvation, He has also written His Word on our hearts and given us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given as a comforter, as well as one who prays for us when we know not what to pray for ourselves, the Holy Spirit distributes any gifts of the Spirit and convicts us of sin. Both God's Word being written on our hearts as well as the indwelling Holy Spirit our to help us in our Christian walk. We walk our Christian walk WITH Christ.

Jesus did not die to get us to co-operate.

Jesus died so that He could indwell us and to reconcile us back to God. So then we can walk through our lives each day and each moment with Him.

The problem with those who are performance orientated is they do not see the extent of what they have in Christ because they are trying so hard to be something that God never intended us to try to be without Him. In that mindset, they do not love God with all their hearts, soul and mind, as they depend on their own strength, their own goodness and themselves. God does not ask for you to co-operate in your own strength. He is your strength.

Depend upon God. The rest comes naturally. Love God. Don't rest in what you can do. It was not designed to be that way and if you were more spiritual you would see that, but you are so into yourself and what you do.

In the Old Testament God had the co-operation of the Hebrews. He (Jesus Christ) died so we could have more than that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have no problem talking about the word "called".

Matthew 20 has the parable of the workers in the vineyard. I am sure you are familiar with verse 16 "For many are called, but few chosen". I am sure it fits right into the election based narrative. However, if one looks closely we see that the stewad gave each their pay, equally, just one denarius. And yet people grumbled because some did more work than others. So all are given equal measure because payment was not based on how much work was done. This has nothing to do with election.

We see again in Matthew 22 a similar phrase "For many are called, but few are chosen". But if we look at the parable of the wedding feast that we find this. This is a picture of the promises of God. Offered first to the Jews, many times, and they did not pay heed, just read the OT to see how often they stopped following God. Then the invitation was opened to all that there was, this is opening things up to the Gentiles as well. Also note that in verse 10 it said they invited good and bad, this is not reference to saved and unsaved...but even by our standards the people who are bad, obviously not 'worthy' by our standards. But God accepted them anyways.

We know that God's desire is for all men to be saved. 1 Timothy 4 "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" as well as 2 Peter 3:9 "...not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"
So we see God desires all to be saved, an invitation to the wedding that has gone to everyone. So everyone has the same opportunity to come to the wedding.

There is no doubt that God does work in people lives. Saved as well as unsaved. And the unsaved will feel the call of God when their heart is ready. I know I felt it when I was struggling in my youth. Then someone near and dear to me said a few words and I could feel God nudging me to pay attention. God did not give me the words or make me do anything, but He put the situation in place and used that person who was already a Christian to help me come to understand and ultimately accept Christ. The thing is that God has invited all to come, but like the jews, many will not listen. The parable of the wedding feast said all were invited, but it did not say all came. It even mentions some that were not welcome showing up.

And it is funny you mention Hebrews 9...the sprinking mentioned in verse 13...who was that for? Let me answer "sprinkling the unclean"

And again you completely do NOT understand what atonemet is for. Even under the Old Testament why did they make sin offerings? It was to atone for sins they had committed...they were UNCLEAN because of sin...so they had to make an OFFERING asking for forgiveness. Technically speaking under the OT Laws if you did not sin, you did not have to make an offering. So the offering was an atonment of the unclean for the sins in order to make them clean. The idea that Christ shed His blood for you and me as we are now is ludicrous. Christ shed His blood for us for you and I as we were, filthy and covered in our iniquities. We were the lost, Christ came to redeem us, we are now the redeemed...Christ no longer comes to redeem us because we are already redeemed. Same with the sacrifice of Christ. It was for the lost, because they were lost. Once they are found they are no longer lost and no longer need a sacrifice because they are no longer lost.

While we are lost we need atonement. Once we have been atoned for, we do not have to be atoned again. The clean do not get washed again.

Besides the "elect" or "chosen" are the extension of Israel who was God's elect and chosen people. So the elect is not in reference to individuals but the body of Christ, the followers of Christ...the jews and the gentiles grafted to the tree.

And there is many scriptures and ample evidence to reflect that anyone and everyone could come to Christ. That it is not God picking and choosing who to save and who not to save, but that the offer of salvation is open to any who wish to receive it. That God's Grace was to offer a sacrifice that would pay the penalty of sin for the world (as scripture says). That salvation is no longer for the few but open to all, and no longer is a blood sacrifice needed for you and I (or anyone) to atone for sins, because the blood sacrifice was made by Christ. Now we have but to believe (as scripture says). But I am sure noneof that will convince you either. I can only pray that it does, and I do. Not for your souls sake, because I do not question your salvation as you have not questioned mine. Nor do I think either one of our doctrines would send anyone to Hell if they listened to it. But we are to be of one mind, and I pray that we can be that.

Wonderful post!

 

[Marvin Knox]

.................I have never seen anyone shift their position on a fundamental matter of doctrine. That says something...............

"Fundamental matter of doctrine" may be the key phrase there. It's usually the a tweaking of something that is already believed that is done in these discussions - if anything.

It seems that the really big issues are pretty well entrenched in people minds.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Thanks for omitting a major part of what needs to be understood!
.

You're welcome. Glad I could be of some assistance to you.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified..

Vs. 28 is not in the so called "golden chain of salvation" - which was the topic addressed in my post to sdowney.

Maybe you'd like me to cut and paste entire chapters for you to provide you some context whenever I say anything related to a particular scripture passage.

Now, just for starters, the Lord says several times:
Those who love Jesus will obey His commandments!
So, this right here disqualifies many of who YOU think are included in the above passage,
which is talking only about God's special elect from the foundation of the world.

No kidding. The Lord said that?

You must think that I haven't ever read the book of Romans.

I have no idea about the identity of every person in the world who might read this passage and think that they were included in the concepts embodied in the chain of salvation.

Obviously those who are predestined and called in this special way for His purposes will keep His commandments. We may slip and even rebel on occasion. But generally this is a mark of a Christian.

Who said otherwise? What's you point?

You are right, however, in saying that it is only the special elect from the foundation of the world who are included in the ideas outlined in the golden chain.

It is those whom He calls with what is obviously a special call as the passage indicates. After all it is not the case that all those called with the general call of the gospel message are also justified.

Since all those said to be called in the passage are justified - this must be a different kind of call. It is obviously the "inward or effectual call" as taught in any really good systematic theology that deals with soteriology in depth.

Kinda reminds me of Paul's letter to the Ephesians
... he made it clear that he was writing all of that great and wonderful stuff ... ONLY to the "faithful" saints! ... And ditto for those in Colossae.

Every book and letter in the Word of God is addressed to a certain group of people. They read it first. Then they passed it on to another group for them to glean any important theology from the letter.

But to say that because a particular letter was written to a particular group of people is not to say that it is not part of the Word of God which we posses here and now and which we mine for doctrine.

If one wanted to apply your ideas to the entire scripture we probably wouldn't need to study it at all except to satisfy our craving for information about the history of the early church. Because the gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts was written to Theophilus - must we say that the doctrines contained in them are not for all of God's people as well?

I'm a big believer in "context" as well as the next man. But I never make an appeal to "context" merely as a rouse to keep from seeing what the passage teaches doctrinally. That is done all too often here in this section of the forum IMO.

This is obviously IMO what you are doing and it's one heck of a way to run a systematic theology.

The fact is that the chain of salvation passage was written here to outline the exact reason that those who love God and have been called in this special way can bank on the fact that "all things work together for good" for them in the end.

(Read "OSAS" there.)

The reason that they can bank on that fact is that there is a chain of events undertaken by God that guarantees that eventuality. Namely that the eventual glorification of those to whom Paul is teaching were known by God before time and then predestined by God before time and then called by God in time and glorified in the economy of God immediately afterward --- so that they are even now seated with Him in Heaven and ruling and administering the Kingdom of God through the power of the one who now indwells us and them.

Meanwhile, everyone who has responded to an altar call tinks it applies to dem! .

Assuming that their conversion was real - it does apply to them.

Me "tinks" that you have appealed to context only in order to undermine what "dem" darn Calvinists and OSAS proponents teach.

Your appeal has fallen flat and it's basic premise is apparent to anyone who gives it a little thought.

But then the scriptures you used to back the fundamental premise of the OP fell flat very early on didn't as well didn't they?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I would be very interested in hearing why not. Because the word RE-generation and phrase being born AGAIN seem to indicate meaning the same thing.

The prefix "re-" indicates something occurring AGAIN. And being born again certainly means being born AGAIN.

So, what's the difference between them? What, specifically, has been RE-generated? And what, specifically, been born AGAIN?

Both natural generation and natural birth are the concepts to which the "re" applies concerning the spiritual aspect of these things.

You were generated the first time by your earthly father in secret. You were born the first time into the kingdom of this world publicly.

You died spiritually in first Adam and were in need of regeneration in the 2nd or last Adam in whom we are now found to be by God. The giving of spiritual life can only be done by God and it is in secret as the teachings of our Lord concerning the wind indicate.

You must be born again spiritually to enter into the Kingdom of God. It is, just as was your natural birth, quite public.

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:10

The results of the wind's presence are easy for anyone to see.

The results of the regeneration of a spirit will become equally as obvious in due time.

This isn't too hard a concept to understand. It's just that it has some objectionable implications for those who do not subscribe to the sovereignty of God in salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Both natural generation and natural birth are the concepts to which the "re" applies concerning the spiritual aspect of these things.

You were generated the first time by your earthly father in secret. You were born the first time into the kingdom of this world publicly.

You died spiritually in first Adam and were in need of regeneration in the 2nd or last Adam in whom we are now found to be by God. The giving of spiritual life can only be done by God and it is in secret as the teachings of our Lord concerning the wind indicate.

You must be born again spiritually to enter into the Kingdom of God. It is, just as was your natural birth, quite public.

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:10

The results of the wind's presence are easy for anyone to see.

The results of the regeneration of a spirit will become equally as obvious in due time.

This isn't too hard a concept to understand. It's just that it has some objectionable implications for those who do not subscribe to the sovereignty of God in salvation.

No, it isn't hard at all to understand. And from what you've explained in this post, there is no difference, unless I've missed something.

Could you list the differences between RE-generation and being born AGAIN, please? This would include what each one is about. Thanks.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you guys are going to bash OSAS which is actually the topic of this thread and NOT predestination, I think we need to bring the Holy Spirit into this discussion, because the Holy Spirit is an integral part of why once we are saved we are always saved.

Another topic that I think we need to discuss is if there are rewards in heaven for the good things we do here on earth.

So, I have something to do real quick but when I come back I want to address and discuss these two items as they do relate to the OP.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Both natural generation and natural birth are the concepts to which the "re" applies concerning the spiritual aspect of these things.

You were generated the first time by your earthly father in secret.

Where is natural generation as you call it talked about in the Bible? Verses please.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If you guys are going to bash OSAS which is actually the topic of this thread and NOT predestination, I think we need to bring the Holy Spirit into this discussion, because the Holy Spirit is an integral part of why once we are saved we are always saved.

Another topic that I think we need to discuss is if there are rewards in heaven for the good things we do here on earth.

So, I have something to do real quick but when I come back I want to address and discuss these two items as they do relate to the OP.

The secret actions of Holy Spirit in bringing a person to the point of being born again by believing and incorporating the message of the gospel into that person's life is exactly what we have been talking about.

The effectual call of God through the actions of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the person's spoken about in Romans 8:28 is the result of predestination as the passage clearly says.

"Those He predestined He also called."

"The "Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."

In addition to these basics outlined in the golden chain of salvation, there is the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit for all those who are justified before God through belief --- which comes to play in the doctrine of the eternal security of believerd.

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

The Bible clearly says that we will all appear before the Lord to receive rewards or suffer loss according to the deeds done on earth.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10

 

[Marvin Knox]

Where is natural generation as you call it talked about in the Bible? Verses please.

You'll excuse me that my first response was - "You gotta be kidding me."

But in the new found spirit of courteous dialog about these things in this thread -- how about the following?

“He went in to Hagar, and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her sight.” Genesis 16:4

AND

“Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.” Genesis 4:1

 

[Marvin Knox]

In addition to these concepts concerning the acts of the natural father - the Bible tells us a little about the activities of the Lord Himself in the womb.

King David said this about God's role in our conception: "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb . . . your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" Psalm 139:13, 16

 

[ToBeLoved]

You'll excuse me that my first response was - "You gotta be kidding me."

But in the new found spirit of courteous dialog about these things in this thread -- how about the following?

“He went in to Hagar, and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her sight.” Genesis 16:4

AND

“Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.” Genesis 4:1

So you see 'generation' as being a prequel to 'regeneration' with 'generation' meaning sex or when an egg is fertilized.

Where is it called 'generation' in the Bible? I do not believe that word is ever used.

Just because there is a regeneration does not mean that there is a generation which would come from the word generate.

I'm not getting where you get these words unless your pulling out the word after taking out the prefix.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You'll excuse me that my first response was - "You gotta be kidding me."

But in the new found spirit of courteous dialog about these things in this thread -- how about the following?

“He went in to Hagar, and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her sight.” Genesis 16:4

AND

“Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.” Genesis 4:1

No, you have to be kidding me.

Unless English is your second language, you are taking a lot of liberties using words that have no biblical meaning in a context that they were never meant to be used.

Generation as a word for intercourse or fertilizing an egg with sperm. That word does not exist in that context.

So don't act like I'm crazy for asking what you meant. I think you try to appear very advanced in your writing skills using words, but please do not use words that are non-existent in the context.

That is confusing. Not good writing at all.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The secret actions of Holy Spirit in bringing a person to the point of being born again by believing and incorporating the message of the gospel into that person's life is exactly what we have been talking about.

The effectual call of God through the actions of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the person's spoken about in Romans 8:28 is the result of predestination as the passage clearly says.

"Those He predestined He also called."

"The "Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."

In addition to these basics outlined in the golden chain of salvation, there is the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit for all those who are justified before God through belief --- which comes to play in the doctrine of the eternal security of believerd.

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

The Bible clearly says that we will all appear before the Lord to receive rewards or suffer loss according to the deeds done on earth.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10

I am talking about the indwelling Holy Spirit residing in each believer after salvation. There are many verses that tell us that the indwelling Holy Spirit is part of our inheritance in Christ Jesus. Our spirit testifies WITH the Holy Spirit that we are Christ's Own.

In that sense, how do you believe we loose salvation?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I am talking about the indwelling Holy Spirit residing in each believer after salvation. There are many verses that tell us that the indwelling Holy Spirit is part of our inheritance in Christ Jesus. Our spirit testifies WITH the Holy Spirit that we are Christ's Own.

In that sense, how do you believe we loose salvation?

Where on earth did you get the idea that I believed a person can lose their salvation?

I'll address your other belligerent posts soon. But for right now I'll just say that you seem to be not only not understanding the illustrations of birth and wind that the Lord used (which I have tried to make you understand).

You also seem to have jumped to some conclusions about what I believe. I have addressed that in a past post. If you aren't sure about what I believe or even if you want to make sure that what you think I believe is correct just ask me.

It's the polite thing to do.

By the way - although I didn't say anything to him at the time I appreciated very much expos4ever's compliment to me concerning my writing.

By the way, you are a very skilled writer - your posts are clear and understandable.

It appears that you read that opinion and decided that you needed to counter it with a nasty counter opinion. IMO you did it simply because you hate me because you believe (wrongly) that I am a Calvinist.

As one person (a person on your "side" of things as I remember it) told you,

Take a breath sister....

Whatever your problem is I wish you would take it elsewhere because it is unbecoming a child of God to act the way you are acting.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So you see 'generation' as being a prequel to 'regeneration' with 'generation' meaning sex or when an egg is fertilized...........Just because there is a regeneration does not mean that there is a generation which would come from the word generate................I'm not getting where you get these words unless your pulling out the word after taking out the prefix.

I have no idea what you mean by my supposedly seeing natural generation as a "prequel" to regeneration.

Jesus used the idea of birth to illustrate for Nicodemus the fact that there had to be a radical change in a person's disposition before they could participate in the Kingdom of God.

Nicodemus took this quite literally and Jesus gave him another illustration from nature which would correct him about that.

He used the idea of the invisible wind and it's visible effects to explain how the new spiritual birth worked with saved men. He said that there was a secret act of the wind for which we simply saw the results when we heard the sound etc.

He said this to illustrate that it is that way with being born again.

It isn't that one has to literally enter the womb again and be born again in that way. It was a spiritual application that He was teaching Nicodemus about. (One that he really should have known about since he was a teacher of Israel and should have known that men died "spiritually" when Adam sinned.)

The secret actions of the wind give visible results that we can see. Likewise the secret actions of the Spirit of God give visible results that we can see when one is born again.

If you can't follow what I mean then you'll have to ask someone else to explain it to you after this.

Unless English is your second language, you are taking a lot of liberties using words that have no biblical meaning in a context that they were never meant to be used.

Generation as a word for intercourse or fertilizing an egg with sperm. That word does not exist in that context.

Whatever!

English is my first language by the way since you were polite enough to ask - "sort of".

I think you try to appear very advanced in your writing skills using words, but please do not use words that are non-existent in the context.

That is confusing. Not good writing at all.

The necessity of not using "words that are non-existent in the context" makes no sense at all.

I could have just quoted the scripture I suppose. But then you have that in your Bible and you still are not able to understand what was being taught.

I suppose that you are in good company with Nicodemus in that respect. But remember that the Lord chided him for teaching when he was not up to par on certain things.

I won't trade insults with you anymore after this.

Please feel free to ask me any question you may have about my beliefs about OSAS or even the compatibility of predestination free will if you are going to comment about my beliefs along those lines. I'll be happy to respond.

Be civil though. Otherwise I won't respond.

 

[ToBeLoved]

By the way - although I didn't say anything to him at the time I appreciated very much expos4ever's compliment to me concedrning my writing.

I am not being rude. I explained that generate or generation is not a word used to describe sexual intercourse or the fertilization of an egg with sperm.

Now what did I say that was rude. I said it was very confusing and to me it is when that word is used like that.

I did ask if it was your second language though, because I have heard people use words way out of context that did not speak English or write English as their first language.

You also said "Are you kidding me"?

So, I do not feel I was out of line at all.

Can you please show me any source/dictionary that uses this word as you have described?