This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[Marvin Knox]

It’s good to see that everyone is settling in to pursue without rancor these discussions concerning the various “mechanic of salvation”, as some have called them.

I know that there was some talk about returning to the topic of OSAS per se. But at least it seems that the objection concerning the necessity of taking side roads such as this has been finally understood and all parties from both sides are participating now.

The original uproar had to do with a general objection to anything that smacks of Calvinism finding it's way into this thread. Then that objection was exacerbated by some remarks from the Calvinist side about some people doing the work of Satan and such.

I don’t like to level charges like that against the other side in the Calvinist debate. I don’t think that it is useful at all.

It’s nice to see that the inflammatory language from both sides has been pretty well tempered for now anyway.

I see that my remarks in post #564 have set off a discussion about whether faith is said to be a gift from God or not in Eph. 2:8. The discussion seems to be based on a dispute about what exactly is the object of Paul’s comment in the verse about something (it’s debatable what) being a “gift” from God.

My post being the impetus for this particular debate – I’ll give my thoughts on it and the things that have been said about my post in the next post I do.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Faith (a noun, as has been pointed out) is available in one form or another to everyone who lives. We all exercise it to one degree or another every day. After all simply sitting down in a chair or stepping onto a ladder are acts of faith. Faith comes through understanding information about the object of that faith. We get that information on which to act in faith through various mediums. It can be taught to us through reading or hearing for instance. Certainly the Word of God is for us the medium through which faith comes concerning spiritual things. Faith can also be learned and even increased through experience.

Concerning Ephesians 2:8 - the choices of exactly what is the object of the statement about being a “gift” from God are traditionally faith, grace, salvation or all of the above. I would contend that the best answer is all of the above. The reason that I have held that position for most of my life is, for all practical purposes, that all three of those words are, at one time or another in the scriptures, referred to as gifts from God.

I have considered this verse many times over my decades of being a teacher of the Word in various functions. I can’t even venture a guess about how many commentaries I have read about exactly what is the object of the “gift” portion of that verse.

They seem to have been divided about equally between faith and grace. Many, although somewhat less, of the writers have said that the object is the word “saved”. Many of these writers have a better grasp of Greek than I do or will likely ever have and I, like most of us, am somewhat at their mercy when it comes to things like feminine and masculine matching in the Greek and such.

I have come to the conclusion that for all practical purposes it doesn’t really matter. In that particular passage salvation in general is linked both to grace and faith. We are after all saved by grace through faith. Of that there should be no doubt.

In my original post I was concentrating on the faith aspect (which is included in “all of the above”) simply because that was the aspect referred to by ToBeLoved in her post that I was commenting on.

That was never to say that both grace and salvation in general are not gifts from God also – because most of us could come up with a list where they are all considered gifts from God in the Bible.

Salvation (justification I believe being the heart of the word) comes through faith – which in turn comes through understanding and applying the Word of God. It is my finding that that understanding of the gospel must be given by God or the natural man cannot and will not respond to the gospel in a saving way.

Pelagianism of it's various incarnations would disagree with my finding in the scriptures of course. But that's what I and many like me see.

Reformed persons, such as I am, take to heart the scriptures that tell us that the natural man cannot understand and apply the gospel in a saving way simply because it is spiritually discerned. Man is, as we all know, dead spiritually (whatever that may be described as by each of you) while he exists only as a “natural” fallen man.

In fact our Lord was pretty clear that the Father must draw those whom He has given to the Son in some special way or they will not even come to Him. After all, as Romans tells us, no one seeks after God as a natural man.

This is the reason for the controversy concerning the necessity of “regeneration before faith” that is often discussed here. I won’t be real dogmatic myself about the exact timing of regeneration or even what exactly goes into regeneration. I probably have disagreements there with full blown Calvinist as I most certainly do concerning so called "limited atonement" as it is often presented. I will say though that I see very clearly in the scriptures both in actual practice and parabolic teachings that there must be a prior working of the Holy Spirit by grace prior to saving faith being exercised.

I’ll spare you all the verses concerning these things. You probably know them as well as I do even if you don’t take them quite as far as Reformed theologians do in our application.

We see Jesus congratulating (as it were) Peter on His recognizing that Jesus was the Christ promised in the scripture. Jesus said clearly that it was God who had given Peter this knowledge and that it was not natural to him.

Then, when we come to Lydia, we see the Lord “opening her heart” to understand the gospel when it was preached to her. Other examples could be given.

Now faith comes through hearing and taking to heart the Word of God. That is how we are born into the Kingdom of God and begin our new life as citizens in that kingdom.

The one who teaches us the truth and allows us to understand and respond is the Holy Spirit within us mysteriously acting before we can be born of the Spirit through the Word of God just as we see the results of the wind or see the results of existing life through natural childbirth in due time. After all no one can even say (from the heart at least) that Jesus is Lord except y the Holy Spirit. The natural man is incapable of understanding that in any personal way. At least that’s how I and most other Reformed theologians see it all presented in the scriptures.

Now I understand that this idea of God opening the minds of some and not of others is a kind of dicey proposition in the thinking of many.

But these ideas of spiritual deadness, election, predestination, giving some to the Son, selectively opening of the minds of some by God and all of the other things related to so called “Calvinism” are not just manufactured ideas that some have developed because they want to think of themselves as more special than some others.

In fact it is precisely because Calvinists subscribe so totally to the idea of salvation by grace that they generally think of themselves as NOT special in any way as compared to other men.

But to return again to the subject at hand – all of the choices in vs. 8 of Ephesians 2 are said in the scriptures at one time or another to be gifts from God.

Unless someone here is a better scholar than the couple of dozen or more scholars whom I have heard debate that verse over the years – then it is probably best to think of all of our salvation as being a gift from God.

And, since Christ is said particularly to be the “author” of our faith, that goes double for that particular word IMO.

P.S. ---- I'll just add here parenthetically that this principle of faith coming by hearing and taking to heart the Word of God plays a big part in our exercise of authority in the Kingdom. Understanding and applying healing and the various gifts comes into play here. We have to study and incorporate through practice what the Holy Spirit teaches us about such things or they simply will not become part of our life.

This is particularly true concerning the gift of prophecy which is exercised, according to the Word of God, according to the faith we have been given.

To a lesser degree (apparently) this also applies to the use of faith in the Kingdom of God when dealing with all of the other gifts as well as prophecy. We have all been given some measure of faith. But that faith is according to what the Spirit has allotted to each individual and is not uniform throughout the Body of Christ. How much grace is given to any individual varies even in the Kingdom and not just in the world in general.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Marvin.

A solid post and very accurate in places.

Faith (a noun, as has been pointed out) is available in one form or another to
everyone who lives. We all exercise it to one degree or another every day.

Yes Marvin, we are designed by God to believe, the word 'faith' is a Latin term for the
Greek pistis.

Certainly the Word of God is for us the medium through which faith comes
concerning spiritual things.

May I ask for some clarification on this point. The 'Word' in the scripture is Jesus Christ.
Are you referring to the scripture Marvin, or to Jesus Himself as the 'medium' through
which faith comes?

Concerning Ephesians 2:8 - the choices of exactly what is the object of the
statement about being a “gift” from God are traditionally faith, grace, salvation or all
of the above. I would contend that the best answer is all of the above.

I would disagree most strongly with what you stated above Marvin.

Grace comes first, then everything else follows, if not for the Grace of Jesus
Christ, you would never have any faith.

Acts 20:24
But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that
I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the
Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus

Acts 18:27
And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged
him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived,
he greatly helped those who had believed through grace.

It is my finding that that understanding of the gospel must be given
by God or the natural man cannot and will not respond to the gospel in a saving
way.

Correct Marvin, though I would extend the 'respond' aspect, to many
Christians also. Many Christians do not live the true Christian life with any
real application, sinning yes, praying and loving, no.

Pelagianism of it's various incarnations would disagree with my finding
in the scriptures of course. But that's what I and many like me see.

Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal
will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special Divine aid. (wikipedia)
Pelagianism is an erroneous belief system, man's will is absolutely corrupt.

Reformed persons, such as I am, take to heart the scriptures that tell us
that the natural man cannot understand and apply the gospel in a saving way simply
because it is spiritually discerned. Man is, as we all know, dead spiritually (whatever
that may be described as by each of you) while he exists only as a “natural” fallen man.

Reformed folk are not the only group that abides by the clear teaching of the scripture.

In fact our Lord was pretty clear that the Father must draw those whom He has given
to the Son in some special way or they will not even come to Him.

Correct, the Gospel must be preached and understood, otherwise no one could ever find
salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I probably have disagreements there with full blown Calvinist as I most certainly do
concerning so called "limited atonement" as it is often presented.

By the phrase 'full blown Calvinist' do you mean hyper Calvinists?

I will say though that I see very clearly in the scriptures both in actual practice and
parabolic teachings that there must be a prior working of the Holy Spirit by grace prior to
saving faith being exercised.

Very well said Marvin, always Grace first.

We see Jesus congratulating (as it were) Peter on His recognizing that Jesus was the
Christ promised in the scripture. Jesus said clearly that it was God who had given Peter this
knowledge and that it was not natural to him.

Another very good point Marvin.

The one who teaches us the truth and allows us to understand and respond is the
Holy Spirit within us mysteriously acting before we can be born of the Spirit through the
Word of God just as we see the results of the wind or see the results of existing life through
natural childbirth in due time. After all no one can even say (from the heart at least) that
Jesus is Lord except y the Holy Spirit. The natural man is incapable of understanding that
in any personal way. At least that’s how I and most other Reformed theologians see it all
presented in the scriptures.

Was is it with this continual reference to 'Reformed theologians' having a monopoly on
the understanding of the revelation of the Christ? Are they the only people that can read
the scripture and understand it Marvin?

Every single theology that ever existed, will in some way, place an unnecessary emphasis
on certain ideas in the scripture. This emphasis is always to the detriment of other ideas
in the scripture. Marvin may I ask you to show me, just one Christian church in history,
that managed to grasp all the doctrines in the scripture?

Were talking about a perfect doctrinal set, such a set cannot exist. Not even Paul the apostle,
understood just how God worked it all together.

It is not a case of how close a church can get to a perfect understanding of the revelation of
the scripture. The truth actually will be, how far from the true doctrines of the scripture is
your church constitution.

Now I understand that this idea of God opening the minds of some and not of others
is a kind of dicey proposition in the thinking of many.

God loves every single person equally, God has no favorites Marvin.

It is not God's wish that anyone perish Marvin.

God did not die on the cross for some chosen elect, God died for the reconciliation of His whole
creation to Himself. All will be subjected to the Christ, no one escapes this subjection to
His absolute authority.

Christ died to rectify the introduction of death to humanity by Adam.

All will be raised from death by the Christ, there will be no exception to this.

The card that is up the sleeve of Christ, is the depth of His love for all of humanity.
The revelation of the scripture cannot be understood outside of this profound Love of God.
Without Love you will end up with a faulty Gospel and a barren doctrinal base.

because they want to think of themselves as more special than some others.

We are all suffer from that fault, that's what amplified the humility of the Christ so much.

In fact it is precisely because Calvinists subscribe so totally to the idea of salvation
by grace that they generally think of themselves as NOT special in any way as compared
to other men.

A beautiful and pure comment by you Marvin.

But to return again to the subject at hand – all of the choices in vs. 8 of Ephesians 2
are said in the scriptures at one time or another to be gifts from God.

Everything is a gift from God, except sin.

Unless someone here is a better scholar than the couple of dozen or more scholars
whom I have heard debate that verse over the years – then it is probably best to think of
all of our salvation as being a gift from God.

The gift of salvation is by the gift of the Grace of God, at all times to the undeserving.

And, since Christ is said particularly to be the “author” of our faith, that goes double
for that particular word IMO.

Another very good comment.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Hello Marvin.
A solid post and very accurate in places.

Thank you! I like to think of it as in all places. But thank you anyway.

Yes Marvin, we are designed by God to believe, the word 'faith' is a Latin term for the
Greek pistis.

I bow humbly to your knowledge of th Latin language.

May I ask for some clarification on this point. The 'Word' in the scripture is Jesus Christ. Are you referring to the scripture Marvin, or to Jesus Himself as the 'medium' through
which faith comes?

Jesus Christ is the living embodiment of the written Word of God. I am however, technically, referring to the written or spoken Word of God.

I would disagree most strongly with what you stated above Marvin.

Grace comes first, then everything else follows, if not for the Grace of Jesus Christ, you would never have any faith.

I’m not sure why you say “most strongly”. However my point goes to the question of the day which is. “To which of those 3 words in the passage does the statement ‘and that, not of yourselves etc.’ refers.” I have read a couple of dozen or more commentators who disagreed as to which of the 3 words in applied.

Grace is the all encompassing medium through which the other two words flow of course.

Correct Marvin, though I would extend the 'respond' aspect, to many
Christians also. Many Christians do not live the true Christian life with any
real application, sinning yes, praying and loving, no.

I’m not sure what is meant by you here.

Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal
will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special Divine aid. (wikipedia)
Pelagianism is an erroneous belief system, man's will is absolutely corrupt.

Agreed!

Reformed folk are not the only group that abides by the clear teaching of the scripture.

No – but the so called Reformed position is the only one that seems to take these teachings to their logical conclusions IMO.

By the phrase 'full blown Calvinist' do you mean hyper Calvinists?

The meaning of labels probably vary somewhat depending on who is doing the labeling. However, when I use that term I am referring generally to so called 5–point Calvinists. And I am also somewhat limiting term to those 5-pointers who teach things in a certain manner using certain terms.

Very well said Marvin, always Grace first.
Another very good point Marvin.

Thank you!

Was is it with this continual reference to 'Reformed theologians' having a monopoly on
the understanding of the revelation of the Christ? Are they the only people that can read
the scripture and understand it Marvin?

No - of course not. I use the term Reformed to differentiate between those who hold to the doctrines of grace, as they are generally called, and those who teach a 5-point Calvinistic doctrine (commonly taught under the acrostic “TULIP”). Many Reformed (including John Calvin himself) did not believe in limited atonement for instance. Nor did he believe and teach unconditional election in quite the way it is often taught by so called Calvinists today.

Every single theology that ever existed, will in some way, place an unnecessary emphasis
on certain ideas in the scripture. This emphasis is always to the detriment of other ideas
in the scripture. Marvin may I ask you to show me, just one Christian church in history,
that managed to grasp all the doctrines in the scripture?

Were talking about a perfect doctrinal set, such a set cannot exist. Not even Paul the apostle,
understood just how God worked it all together.

It is not a case of how close a church can get to a perfect understanding of the revelation of
the scripture. The truth actually will be, how far from the true doctrines of the scripture is
your church constitution.

I could refer you to the church as embodied in the New Jerusalem as an example of perfect doctrinal compliance. Beyond that I cannot.


Where did you get the idea that I felt otherwise?

God loves every single person equally, God has no favorites Marvin.

It is not God's wish that anyone perish Marvin.

God did not die on the cross for some chosen elect, God died for the reconciliation of His whole
creation to Himself. All will be subjected to the Christ, no one escapes this subjection to
His absolute authority.

Christ died to rectify the introduction of death to humanity by Adam.

All will be raised from death by the Christ, there will be no exception to this.

The card that is up the sleeve of Christ, is the depth of His love for all of humanity.
The revelation of the scripture cannot be understood outside of this profound Love of God.
Without Love you will end up with a faulty Gospel and a barren doctrinal base.

We are all suffer from that fault, that's what amplified the humility of the Christ so much.

Amen!

If you got the idea somewhere that I felt otherwise, you are mistaken.

Perhaps you have lumped me in with 5-point Calvinists somehow. I have said very clearly many times that I do not hold to some of the doctrines of 5-point Calvinists - at least as they are sometimes presented by them.

God’s feelings for the lost of this world are displayed on His sleeve.in the scriptures. The fact that He has chosen to display His mercy and grace through some who are worthy of Hell fire and pass others by with His grace has nothing to do with the genuine display of sorrow displayed by Christ over the people of Jerusalem who were rejecting Him does not change His feelings at all IMO.

A beautiful and pure comment by you Marvin.

Thank you!

Everything is a gift from God, except sin.

Sure! Of course.

The gift of salvation is by the gift of the Grace of God, at all times to the undeserving.

Another very good comment.

Thank you!

 

[brotherjerry]

The fact that He has chosen to display His mercy and grace through some who are worthy of Hell fire and pass others by with His grace

Why? To what purpose?
Who is God displaying His mercy too?

 

[expos4ever]

Are you talking about

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Maybe read that correctly.

By the grace of God we have been saved through faith, not anything we could have done for ourselves, but it is a gift of God (not faith, but salvation); not a result of works (to receive salvation) lest anyone boast (of having earned or deserving salvation)

I think this text has been widely misunderstood. Channeling respected theologian NT Wright, I will claim that by "works", Paul really mean "works of the Law of Moses".

Paul lived in a world where many Jews (1) saw themselves as the sole ultimate recipient's of God's favour; (2) Saw the law (correctly, as a matter of fact) as a kind of national charter that set them apart from other nations.

Accordingly, Paul says "you are not saved by works" as a way of saying "you are not saved by being Jewish".

Verse 11 and following robustly support this hypothesis.

Remember Romans 2:6-7:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Paul clearly believes that good works do matter unto salvation, at least to the degree that comprise evidence of saving faith.

 

[expos4ever]

There is no "winning" in these debates...you can only express your position and pray that whomever reads it learns something. We should always go into discussions with an open mind and willing to learn and investigate. It may not change our mind, but it at least allows us to learn more.

I think the situation is more troubling. In a decade of participating in these boards, I have never, repeat never, seen anyone change their position on any matter of major doctrine. This cannot be right - if there are indeed clear Biblical truths as we all seem to claim (of course, in defending our position), lots of people should indeed be changing their minds as they realize they are mistaken about something.

But this never happens.

I have heard psychologists recently report that human beings find it incredibly hard to be objective. We cling so tightly to our presently held beliefs that we lose all ability to rationally consider evidence that challenges our views. Or we invent wildly irrational explanations to force-fit a challenging text into our present belief system. Look at what people do to Romans 2:6-7 - which clearly states good works do matter unto salvation. You should see the backflips people do to effectively rework this text to mean something other than what it clearly says.

The proof is in the pudding - no one on these boards ever their minds.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Reformed persons, such as I am, take to heart the scriptures that tell us that the natural man cannot understand and apply the gospel in a saving way simply because it is spiritually discerned. Man is, as we all know, dead spiritually (whatever that may be described as by each of you) while he exists only as a “natural” fallen man.

In fact our Lord was pretty clear that the Father must draw those whom He has given to the Son in some special way or they will not even come to Him. After all, as Romans tells us, no one seeks after God as a natural man.

I know Marvin won't respond to this, but a point needs to be made about 1 Cor 2:14 and what the natural man cannot understand. It cannot be the gospel. Why not? Because of all the evidence of unbelievers who do understand and reject the gospel. I've read many writers of current news-type magazines (Time, Life, etc) who can clearly describe the Biblical way to be saved, all the while rejecting the truth of it. That alone proves that 1 Cor 2:14 isn't about understanding the gospel unless one has been regenerated.

The context for 1 Cor 2:14 is found in 2 verses; v.6 and v.10. In v.6 Paul speaks of "a message for the mature". He was referring to advanced doctrines, designed for the spiritual growth of believers. Unbelievers cannot understand these advanced doctrines. And v.10 speaks of "the deep things of God", another reference to advanced doctrines, which are not for the unbeliever, and the unbeliever cannot understand.

As has been rightly pointed out, the gift of faith has been given to all mankind. So no one has any excuse for not believing in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. And Paul pointed out in Rom 2:14,15 that everyone has a conscience with which to understand right from wrong. It is with this conscience that man is convicted of his sins. Yet, we also know that man is able to "sear his conscience" per 1 Tim 4:2, which renders him self limited in ability to believe the gospel.

So if there is any "inability" to believe, as Calvinists are quick to teach, then it is an inability that they themselves created. It is not because didn't give them such an inability, or kept anyone from believing.

Once again, no one has any excuse. Rom 1:20

This is the reason for the controversy concerning the necessity of “regeneration before faith” that is often discussed here. I won’t be real dogmatic myself about the exact timing of regeneration or even what exactly goes into regeneration. I probably have disagreements there with full blown Calvinist as I most certainly do concerning so called "limited atonement" as it is often presented. I will say though that I see very clearly in the scriptures both in actual practice and parabolic teachings that there must be a prior working of the Holy Spirit by grace prior to saving faith being exercised.

Another subject with which Marvin and I are at odds. I fully agree and embrace his final sentence above about the working of the Holy Spirit, which is by grace, prior to saving faith being exercised. What I continue to disagree with him about is this working equals regeneration.

The working of the Holy Spirit is His ministry of conviction, as noted in John 16:8,9. And we know that people can resist the Holy Spirit, as noted in Acts 7:51.

But these ideas of spiritual deadness, election, predestination, giving some to the Son, selectively opening of the minds of some by God and all of the other things related to so called “Calvinism” are not just manufactured ideas that some have developed because they want to think of themselves as more special than some others.

Yes, all are Biblical words and concepts. It's just that they don't carry the meanings that Calvinism has placed on them.

How much grace is given to any individual varies even in the Kingdom and not just in the world in general.

I haven't found any Scripture that indicates that God measures out grace. Grace can be rejected, of course. So in that sense, such a person will not in any way benefit from God's grace. But again, another self limited condition.

From man's own hand, not God's.

Scripture is real clear about Christ dying for everyone. So everyone has benefitted from God's grace in that respect. Christ removed the sin barrier that existed between God and man. That is grace, and demonstrates God's love for all of His human creatures.

 

[ZacharyB]

Concerning Ephesians 2:8 - the choices of exactly what is the object of the statement about being a “gift” from God are traditionally faith, grace, salvation or all of the above. I would contend that the best answer is all of the above. The reason that I have held that position for most of my life is, for all practical purposes, that all three of those words are, at one time or another in the scriptures, referred to as gifts from God.

If you're thinking at all in terms of today's church in America,
you can just forget all of Ephesians ... for it was only written to "faithful" saints (1:1).
Travelling evangelists say the American church is in a deplorable condition,
i.e. the members being a long way from being "faithful".
.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Grace comes first, then everything else follows, if not for the Grace of Jesus
Christ, you would never have any faith.

Acts 20:24
But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that
I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the
Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus

Acts 18:27
And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged
him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived,
he greatly helped those who had believed through grace.

I totally agree.

Grace was first established by the Father with the intention of sending His Son to the earth for the redemption of sins and grace is what we were all given upon Christ's death on the cross which has given us the forgiveness of sin, which reconciles us back to God.

That all occured way before our individual faith or salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you're thinking at all in terms of today's church in America,
you can just forget all of Ephesians ... for it was only written to "faithful" saints (1:1).
Travelling evangelists say the American church is in a deplorable condition,
i.e. a long way from being "faithful".

I've already refuted your notion by showing the verses that clearly indicate that Paul's epistles were to all believers, not just some of them.

If Ephesians was only to the faithful, and not the unfaithful believers, why did Paul include a warning in ch 5? Why warn the faithful, while ignoring the unfaithful. In fact, his warnings were to those considered unfaithful.

 

[ZacharyB]

If Ephesians was only to the faithful, and not the unfaithful believers, why did Paul include a warning in ch 5? Why warn the faithful, while ignoring the unfaithful. In fact, his warnings were to those considered unfaithful.

I've already explained that it does no harm whatsoever to remind even the faithful
of their responsibilities, etc. ... in an effort to ensure their CONTINUED faithfulness!
News Flash ... everything must be continued ... nothing is a one-time deal.
Endurance in the faith (and all that being faithful entails) is a must.
This is strictly "your reasonable service" (Romans 12:1).
Hope this helps someone!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think this text has been widely misunderstood. Channeling respected theologian NT Wright, I will claim that by "works", Paul really mean "works of the Law of Moses".

Paul lived in a world where many Jews (1) saw themselves as the sole ultimate recipient's of God's favour; (2) Saw the law (correctly, as a matter of fact) as a kind of national charter that set them apart from other nations.

Accordingly, Paul says "you are not saved by works" as a way of saying "you are not saved by being Jewish".

Paul may have been saying through 'you are not saved by works' as an indication that following the Law will not lead to salvation, but I do not believe that it was saying at all that you are not saved by being Jewish.

Paul needed to make a clear deliniation that we are saved by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ under the New Covenant and get the people who did not yet understand the New Covenant to change their thinking from the Old Covenant to understaniding how Jesus' life and death changed everything.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I've already explained that it does no harm whatsoever to remind even the faithful
of their responsibilities, etc. ... in an effort to ensure their CONTINUED faithfulness!
News Flash ... everything must be continued ... nothing is a one-time deal.
Endurance in the faith (and all that being faithful entails) is a must.
This is strictly "your reasonable service" (Romans 12:1).
Hope this helps someone!

How can you equate

"your reasonable service" in Romans 12

to continued faithfulness as a marker for continued salvation?

That makes no sense at all.

Also, on a side note if you want us to believe your opinion and change our mind about what scripture says, than other scripture will do that, rather than personal opinion. Opinion here is everywhere.

 

[ZacharyB]

If Ephesians was only to the faithful, and not the unfaithful believers, why did Paul include a warning in ch 5? Why warn the faithful, while ignoring the unfaithful. In fact, his warnings were to those considered unfaithful.

Reminding the faithful of all of their reasonable spiritual services (Romans 12:1)
is always an excellent way to spend one's time!

 

[expos4ever]

Paul may have been saying through 'you are not saved by works' as an indication that following the Law will not lead to salvation, but I do not believe that it was saying at all that you are not saved by being Jewish.

Please read verses 11 and following: clearly Paul is assuring Gentiles that salvation (and other benefits) are not strictly a Jewish thing.

We need to let Paul say what he wants to say. And clearly (from verse 11 and following) the problem here is not a belief that "good works save" but rather the belief that Jews and Jews only are the beneficiaries to the exclusion of Gentiles.

Are you going to tell me that in verses 11 and following the issue is not the matter of whether Gentiles, too, are included in God's family as well as Jews?

The issue of "good works" is nowhere in sight in verses 11 and following.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I haven't found any Scripture that indicates that God measures out grace. Grace can be rejected, of course. So in that sense, such a person will not in any way benefit from God's grace. But again, another self limited condition.

What is this idea that God measures out grace anyway? Is there a better salvation in comparison to the ultimate salvation?

I still do not understand what more can one person get from God's grace that another person cannot get.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Reminding the faithful of all of their reasonable spiritual services (Romans 12:1)
is always an excellent way to spend one's time!

I think reminding ourselves is an excellent way to spend our time.

We need to stop looking outward for problems and look inward at ourselves. Christians would be much better people if we all did this.

 

[ZacharyB]

We need to let Paul say what he wants to say.

Great idea ...
now will you please tell us what Paul was wanting to say in Romans 6:16-23?
.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you're thinking at all in terms of today's church in America,
you can just forget all of Ephesians ... for it was only written to "faithful" saints (1:1).
Travelling evangelists say the American church is in a deplorable condition,
i.e. the members being a long way from being "faithful".
.

The church are the people of God.