This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[brotherjerry]

How do we not focus on God? Calvinist hold God in such a high regard that we get criticized for defending his absolute sovereignty and the fact we bring absolutely nothing before him in regards to our salvation.

There are some on this board that have elevated their doctrine so high that they have lost sight of God. They think they are looking up at God but all they see is TULIP. And they cast dispersion upon fellow believers, judgement, and vitriol. Even to the point of claiming people that are not in agreement with them are agents of Satan. TULIP has so gotten in their way that they have forgotten the commandment to love one another.

There were those in the Bible that did many miraculous things in the name of Jesus and He said He did not know them. I do not claim these people are not known to Jesus but use that as an example that people can put their religion before their relationship. This is not unique to Calvinists, please do not think that is what I mean.

 

[ToBeLoved]

He is indeed saying that.

What he is not saying is what you have accused Calvinists including him of saying.

Namely that that is their gospel that they preach to the world.

You may disagree that the Bible teaches these doctrines. But you may not accuse every Calvinist of preaching them as part of their presentation of the gospel to the world.

Explaining and contending for sound doctrine with such as you - yes.

To the world, which is not equipped to enter into such intra-Christian doctrinal debates - no.

Debate the topic if you are able. Or don't if you are not or choose not to. Just get off the case of those who are debating it as something essential to a proper understanding of how people get saved and why they cannot lose that gift of salvation in this life.

Your move lady! This is getting very old.

Whatever.

It seems that you cannot comprehend that if God is choosing and only those chosen can obtain salvation, than that is doctrine that will affect seekers or new Christians thinking.

I'm bored with this thread anyway. You seem more interested in the argument than anyone who may not come to Christ because of it.

 

[brotherjerry]

Whatever.

It seems that you cannot comprehend that if God is choosing and only those chosen can obtain salvation, than that is doctrine that is affecting people's thinking.

I'm bored with this thread anyway. You seem more interested in the argument than anyone who may not come to Christ because of it.

Take a breath sister...I am with you.
Election...choosing who is and who is not is by definition limiting salvation. Which goes against what the Bible says was Christ's purpose. "Came to save the world not condemn it" (paraphrase). Election by definition adds words not seen to that verse that then limit the meaning of world. "Christ did not come to save the world, but some of the people in the world" is what it gets turned into.

It seems the concept of the elect as being a chosen type of people (christians) that God ordained before the creation not only works for the verses dealing with election, but also do not contradict or make one do gyrations with words when talking about the purpose of Christ's sacrifice. And when you read a verse and have to do gyrations with the wording to get a doctrine....then the doctrine is probably not a good one.

There is no "winning" in these debates...you can only express your position and pray that whomever reads it learns something. We should always go into discussions with an open mind and willing to learn and investigate. It may not change our mind, but it at least allows us to learn more. I mean there are still some folks that feel infant baptism is a must to be saved, or the snake handlers...all sorts of crazy doctrines. TULIP is crazy, but compared to some...it is pretty tame And I sure would not question a claim of Salvation by TULIPer, like I would the snake handlers

 

[Marvin Knox]

Isaiah55 says that they believe that they bring nothing to salvation. That's what I was questioning. What does any of us bring besides faith? So how can one be elect over another when we all only bring faith?

Because faith is a gift from God lest any man should boast. It is strictly because of the undeserved favor of God. Not everyone receives that gift.

None of us deserve it of course. That is why we should not get all bent out of shape when we come to understand that some sinners have been given the gift of faith and other sinners have been passed by.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Because faith is a gift from God lest any man should boast. It is strictly because of the undeserved favor of God. Not everyone receives that gift.

None of us deserve it of course. That is why we should not get all bent out of shape when we come to understand that some sinners have been given the gift of faith and other sinners have been passed by.

Are you talking about

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Maybe read that correctly.

By the grace of God we have been saved through faith, not anything we could have done for ourselves, but it is a gift of God (not faith, but salvation); not a result of works (to receive salvation) lest anyone boast (of having earned or deserving salvation)

 

[ToBeLoved]

Take a breath sister...I am with you.
Election...choosing who is and who is not is by definition limiting salvation. Which goes against what the Bible says was Christ's purpose. "Came to save the world not condemn it" (paraphrase). Election by definition adds words not seen to that verse that then limit the meaning of world. "Christ did not come to save the world, but some of the people in the world" is what it gets turned into.

It seems the concept of the elect as being a chosen type of people (christians) that God ordained before the creation not only works for the verses dealing with election, but also do not contradict or make one do gyrations with words when talking about the purpose of Christ's sacrifice. And when you read a verse and have to do gyrations with the wording to get a doctrine....then the doctrine is probably not a good one.

There is no "winning" in these debates...you can only express your position and pray that whomever reads it learns something. We should always go into discussions with an open mind and willing to learn and investigate. It may not change our mind, but it at least allows us to learn more. I mean there are still some folks that feel infant baptism is a must to be saved, or the snake handlers...all sorts of crazy doctrines. TULIP is crazy, but compared to some...it is pretty tame And I sure would not question a claim of Salvation by TULIPer, like I would the snake handlers

I get it. I guess I lost my patience when the guy started calling us children of satan. I should have reported him to the mods. That is out of line.

 

[brotherjerry]

Because faith is a gift from God lest any man should boast. It is strictly because of the undeserved favor of God. Not everyone receives that gift.

None of us deserve it of course. That is why we should not get all bent out of shape when we come to understand that some sinners have been given the gift of faith and other sinners have been passed by.

That soooooo butchers Ephesians. Faith is NOT the gift from God...Grace is the gift from God.
Ephesians 3:2 "if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you"
Ephesians 3:7 "according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power"
Ephesians 3:8 "To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given"...
Ephesians 4:7 "But to each of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift"
Romans 12:3 "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone..."
Romans 12:6 "Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us..."
Romans 15:15 ..."because of the grace that was given me from God"
1 Corinthians 1:4 "for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus"
1 Corinthians 3:10 "According to the grace of God which was given to me..."
2 Thessalonians 2:16 "who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace"

Man is created with faith. Everyone has the "ability" to trust in Jesus. That is exactly why God loved the World, and why Christ came to save the world. And why the Bible says ANYONE who believes, because truly ANYONE can believe. But many choose not to. Christ paid the price of sacrifice for sinners...all sinners.

 

[brotherjerry]

I get it. I guess I lost my patience when the guy started calling us children of satan. I should have reported him to the mods. That is out of line.

Yeah I know...I do it too. Perhaps one of these days those that resort to the personal attacks and name calling will remove the log in their own eye and get back to loving as Jesus commanded. Until then we are best to do as James suggest and be slow to anger, hold our tongue and pray for those that persecute us. That is truly showing the love of Christ is it not?

Praying for a little peace to come your way sister.

 

[brotherjerry]

Are you talking about

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Maybe read that correctly.

By the grace of God we have been saved through faith, not anything we could have done for ourselves, but it is a gift of God (not faith, but salvation); not a result of works (to receive salvation) lest anyone boast (of having earned or deserving salvation)

Exactly!

As I mentioned..grammatically what is the gift is God's Grace which is how we have been saved. God established the punishment for sin is death. But because of God's unmerited love He gave His only begotten Son to pay that punishment, as He bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin. So that the punishment for sin has been paid. But to receive the benefits of Christ paying that price we must have faith. Everyone has faith, everyone has the same ability to receive the Grace from God. That way no one can boast that they did something to earn it, or that they have more than someone else. We are all equal when it comes to being able to receive the Grace of God through Christ.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Downey.

I asked you about the identity of 'those' in Romans (8:29).

You replied with the following.

'Those' would be the persons He foreknew with a great
love, before they existed, before they were born.

You did not identify whether 'those' are Jews or Gentiles.
You seem to lean towards a collective grouping of Jew and Gentile.

This creates a problem for me, because the very same words are
used a second time by Paul, later on in Romans.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

In this verse 'foreknew' means specifically the people that God
had previously known i.e., the Jews. It is impossible to interpret
'His people' as any other than the Jews.

Why do you interpret the word 'foreknew' in two separate ways?

In Romans (11:2), God foreknew the Jews and thats obvious.

In Romans (8:29), for some unknown reason, God 'foreknew'
everyone, according to you.

The scripture strongly indicates that God chose the nation of Israel.

The scripture is silent in the Old Testament about the Gentiles
having a previous relationship with God.

Could you explain why your interpretation varies so much, it seems
inconsistent?

 

[klutedavid]

That soooooo butchers Ephesians. Faith is NOT the gift from God...Grace is the gift from God.
Ephesians 3:2 "if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you"
Ephesians 3:7 "according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power"
Ephesians 3:8 "To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given"...
Ephesians 4:7 "But to each of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift"
Romans 12:3 "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone..."
Romans 12:6 "Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us..."
Romans 15:15 ..."because of the grace that was given me from God"
1 Corinthians 1:4 "for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus"
1 Corinthians 3:10 "According to the grace of God which was given to me..."
2 Thessalonians 2:16 "who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace"

Man is created with faith. Everyone has the "ability" to trust in Jesus. That is exactly why God loved the World, and why Christ came to save the world. And why the Bible says ANYONE who believes, because truly ANYONE can believe. But many choose not to. Christ paid the price of sacrifice for sinners...all sinners.

Hello Jerry.

Liked your post and totally agree that we are saved by Grace.

Though even faith itself is a gift, even the measure of faith is a gift.

I wish that was all I had to say on this post Jerry.

The word 'Faith' appears to be a faulty translation of the Koine Greek word pistis.

The Koine Greek word pistis is a noun and means belief.

The Koine Greek word pistero is the verb and means believe.

I may be corrected on this point, but it appears that the word 'faith' is
the Latin translation of the Koine Greek word pistis. The early translators
converted the Greek into Latin, and then back into English. So our
modern translations follow this same tradition and use the word 'faith'.

So where the word 'faith' appears I think it should be 'belief'.

I am not absolutely sure but it certainly appears to be the case.

Perhaps there is someone out there who may know more about this issue?

 

[brotherjerry]

Thanks for the response David.

However, I would agree that faith is a gift only in that being created is a gift as well. The very fact that I woke up this morning looking at the green side of grass is a gift. But to say that God also gives us our faith to me is stretching the Bible.

As to the translation issue. What I noticed a while back was the difference between the noun and the verb. At least when looking at the NASB when the noun is used, it is translated as faith, belief actually does not show up in the NASB. But as a verb it is always a form of believe. Which makes sense...faith is something we have, not something we do.

 

[klutedavid]

Thanks for the response David.

However, I would agree that faith is a gift only in that being created is a gift as well. The very fact that I woke up this morning looking at the green side of grass is a gift. But to say that God also gives us our faith to me is stretching the Bible.

As to the translation issue. What I noticed a while back was the difference between the noun and the verb. At least when looking at the NASB when the noun is used, it is translated as faith, belief actually does not show up in the NASB. But as a verb it is always a form of believe. Which makes sense...faith is something we have, not something we do.

Hello Jerry.

Appreciate your reply.

I do think faith or better a 'belief' is a gift from above.

Here are a few verses to consider.

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly
of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has
allotted to each a measure of faith.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.

1 Corinthians 12
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge
according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit.

 

[Job8]

I do think faith or better a 'belief' is a gift from above.

One should not confuse the spiritual gift of faith (evidently extraordinary faith) with saving faith, which comes from the preaching and hearing the Gospel. Please note (1 Pet 1:23-25): Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Please note carefully the relationship of the New Birth with the Word of God, which is then equated with the Gospel. As Paul said (Rom 10:17):So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Many Christians seem to forget that when the Gospel is actually given out as the Word of God, all of God's power is behind it. That's also why Paul said that the Gospel is the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION (Rom 1:16).

 

[klutedavid]

One should not confuse the spiritual gift of faith (evidently extraordinary faith) with saving faith, which comes from the preaching and hearing the Gospel. Please note (1 Pet 1:23-25): Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Please note carefully the relationship of the New Birth with the Word of God, which is then equated with the Gospel. As Paul said (Rom 10:17):So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Many Christians seem to forget that when the Gospel is actually given out as the Word of God, all of God's power is behind it. That's also why Paul said that the Gospel is the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION (Rom 1:16).

Hello Job8.

Good post with the emphasis on the 'POWER of GOD'.

Here are some additional verses.

Acts 3
16 And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which
has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which
comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of
you all.

Philippians 1
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe
in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.

2 Peter
1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who
have received a faith of the same kind as ours.

 

[sdowney717]

Good verses klutedavid on faith being God's gift.
Additionally consider Romans 12

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Not only faith but a measure of faith.
Not only that but a person cannot even say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12
3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking under the power and influence of the [Holy] Spirit of God can [ever] say, Jesus be cursed! And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit.

So then all this points to grace and election and being chosen of God to be His people.
Psalm 100 New King James Version (NKJV)

A Psalm of Thanksgiving.
Make a joyful shout to the Lord, all you lands!
2 Serve the Lord with gladness;
Come before His presence with singing.

3 Know that the Lord, He is God;

It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves;
We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.

 

[sdowney717]

Hello Downey.

I asked you about the identity of 'those' in Romans (8:29).

You replied with the following.

You did not identify whether 'those' are Jews or Gentiles.
You seem to lean towards a collective grouping of Jew and Gentile.

This creates a problem for me, because the very same words are
used a second time by Paul, later on in Romans.

Romans 11
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

In this verse 'foreknew' means specifically the people that God
had previously known i.e., the Jews. It is impossible to interpret
'His people' as any other than the Jews.

Why do you interpret the word 'foreknew' in two separate ways?

In Romans (11:2), God foreknew the Jews and thats obvious.

In Romans (8:29), for some unknown reason, God 'foreknew'
everyone, according to you.

The scripture strongly indicates that God chose the nation of Israel.

The scripture is silent in the Old Testament about the Gentiles
having a previous relationship with God.

Could you explain why your interpretation varies so much, it seems
inconsistent?

Paul is clearly speaking of both Jew and Gentile as a part of the true vine even in Romans 11. So then He must have foreknown them both the Jew and the Gentile.
Foreknew, simply God foreknew 'His people'. Would you agree that out of the entire earth, some of His people whom He foreknew must have been gentile as well as Jew? Was Abraham a jew or was Abraham a gentile? Where did Abraham come from? Who is a jew?
See not according to the flesh does God reckon a person but the Spirit. We look at the outside appearance and say jew or gentile, but God does His sanctifying work on the inside..

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Abraham was from UR of the Chaldeans, so not jewish. God created-called out the jews to be a people set apart from the world, drawn out from the nations. God does the same with Christians, they are chosen out from the world to no longer be OF the world but belong to Christ.
(there is that word 'chosen' of God again which so many hate that whole idea)
However, many of those 'jews' were not really 'jews', that is of the True Vine in God's sight, since to be a 'jew' you must be sanctified of His Spirit and not born according to the flesh.

John 15
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Genesis 11:31New King James Version (NKJV)
31 And Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, the son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram’s wife, and they went out with them from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan; and they came to Haran and dwelt there.

And so in God's calling us to be in Christ, no longer is there Jew or Gentile,

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 3
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

People go to hell for their sins, But those who are with Christ are CALLED, CHOSEN, FAITHFUL.

The Bible teaches otherwise. People are cast into the lake of fire because their names are NOT in the book of life. Meaning; they didn't receive the free gift of eternal life. Period.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hello Jerry.

Liked your post and totally agree that we are saved by Grace.

Though even faith itself is a gift, even the measure of faith is a gift.

I wish that was all I had to say on this post Jerry.

The word 'Faith' appears to be a faulty translation of the Koine Greek word pistis.

The Koine Greek word pistis is a noun and means belief.

The Koine Greek word pistero is the verb and means believe.

I may be corrected on this point, but it appears that the word 'faith' is
the Latin translation of the Koine Greek word pistis. The early translators
converted the Greek into Latin, and then back into English. So our
modern translations follow this same tradition and use the word 'faith'.

So where the word 'faith' appears I think it should be 'belief'.

I am not absolutely sure but it certainly appears to be the case.

Perhaps there is someone out there who may know more about this issue?

All I would add is that the word "faith" is a noun as well. And as a noun, it means the substance of what we are believing. For example, the "Christian faith" is what believers should be believing. And as a noun, it is a gift from God.

But Eph 2:8 is about the noun salvation that is the gift of God. Which agrees with Rom 6:23, where Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God.

So when people claim that "faith is a gift", they are right, but unfortunately their understanding of 'faith' is the action of believing, so they're right for the wrong reason.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly
of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has
allotted to each a measure of faith.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.

1 Corinthians 12
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge
according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit.

The two bottom verses; Galatians 5:22 and 1 Corinthians 12:8 are both talking about AFTER we have been saved, not BEFORE.

Galatians is telling us what the fruit of the Holy Spirit is, which we do not receive the Holy Spirit until we are saved.

1 Corinthians is telling us that each of us receives a gift of the Holy Spirit for our walk with Christ and what He calls each of us to do.

So the verse in Romans is the only verse that is applicable before one is saved, which is that "God has allotted each a measure of faith" so all can come to Him.