Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[iamlamad]

Except for all those pesky time statements.....Gotta make those elastic, metaphoric and spiritual, can let them stand in their plain sense, as written can we?

You mean statements like:

Rev 20: 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

 

[iamlamad]

Who then do you say is the "He" that destroyed them?

Since you agree with me that the parable was directed at them, and you agree that it was a prophesy about their destruction in 70AD, why do you reject Christ's words that their destruction, which you profess happened in the 1st century, would come via "The coming of the Lord"? (vs 40)

Common sense, my friend. Most of the church world KNOWS He did not come then. NONE Of the verses that tell us what will happen when He comes happened then. You may think there is one or two, but in reality NONE because He has not come yet. Do you imagine, for example, that "the restitution of all things" happened back then?

Surely you know that your theory here is in a tiny minority of the Body of Christ as a whole?

 

[iamlamad]

One must bear in mind that there is more than one interpretations of any given Scriptural text.

How many of those interpretations would be "correct" in the mind of God?

 

[BABerean2]

How many of those interpretations would be "correct" in the mind of God?[/QUOTE]

It is the one which does not produce a conflict with the other verses...


1Co_14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

You would rather twist, and redefine the words of Christ in John chapter 5 and ignore or redefine the text of numerous other passages to make your 1,000 year carnal kingdom work.
And then you claim this is the correct interpretation.
......................................................................................................................
Millennial Choice…


All of us have to make the choice of making some unit of time not "literal".


We have "hour" and "all" in John chapter 5, where Jesus indicates a simultaneous resurrection of both the Godly and the ungodly.


Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.


Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice


Joh 5:29 and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


We find the same thing in the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew chapter 25.


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(This verse shows the wicked being cast into hell at the Second Coming of Christ.)


Christ will judge both those alive and dead at His Second Coming.


2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
(The word “quick” here is a reference to the living.)


Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


We have the same simultaneous resurrection from Job 14:12, Daniel 12:1-3, Paul in Acts 24:15, and John in Rev. 11:18.


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."


We have Jesus discussing the resurrection at the "last day" in John chapter 6.


Martha confirmed this understanding after the death of her brother Lazarus.


How many days come after the last day?


Some claim the word "thousand" cannot be figurative. Well, let us see...


Psa_50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.


God owns all of the hills. However, in the verse above the word "thousand" is used to represent a very large number. It is used figuratively.


We can redefine all of these other units of time, from several different witnesses, and get a 1,000 year reign of Christ after His Second Coming, where sin and death continue, by making some assumptions...


...or we can understand that John saw the "souls" of those who died in-Christ living and reigning with Christ in heaven for a very long (1,000) time before the return of Christ. This is a reference to the length of time that the souls reign, but it does not discuss how long Christ reigns. His reign is given as forever in Rev. chapter 11.


The 1,000 year reign of Christ is an assumption, not found in the text.


If I married the Queen of England in the future, at some point in time the historians might write about how long I reigned with her.


However, that would not be the length of her reign, which would be much longer.


We should all be bothered by the idea of mortals living to a very old age, but still dying after the return of Christ.


Would Christ perform their funeral service?


Where would their souls go, since Christ is here?


If the Christians are ruling over these mortals during the 1,000 years we must do a terrible job if they rebel against Christ at the end of the 1,000 years.


Does Christ just let Satan out of the pit and allow him to foment a rebellion, all while Christ is in control of the planet?


We also know God has already bound wicked angels in chains.


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



The only way to prevent a tremendous conflict in scripture is to understand that the 1,000 years is a symbol that represents the whole "Church Age".


The One who defeated sin and death at the Cross is not going to rule over a world where death and sin remain at His Second Coming.


He brings the New Heavens and the New Earth with Him when He returns.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.


1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1Th 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.


1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.




2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.


2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, (This is speaking to the Church.)


2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?


2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
(This verse was written to the Church.)
.

baberean2,

1. The 1000 year reign is literal in Revelation 20. God can look as a 1000 years as a day for that is his time. But he did not use this in this context. Why? It is specific to the binding of Satan literally in the bottomless pit so he won't deceive the nations.

2. These nations are being ruled by the saints which will be the church of today for this is what we are being trained for now. 2 Timothy 2:12; if ye suffer ye shall reign. The tribulation saints who got victory over the beast are a part of these ruling saints. Revelation 20:4-6 of which they are the resurrected saints in the 1st resurrection. They are resurrected in Revelation 15:1-2 which is right before the 7 vials in Revelation 16:1-2.

3. These vials are the wrath of God (Revelation 16:1) on the beast kingdom and leads to the battle of Armageddon.

4. At the battle of Armageddon Christ will come back with the saints out of heaven (Revelation 19:11-15) Israel will be saved and Israel will be at the head of the nations of the world (Isaiah 2:2-4) where the law will go forth from Zion. Isaiah 66:7-8 will travail in the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel 12:1) and bring forth her children and will become a nation born in one day (Isaiah 66:7-8).

5. The KoH will be a kingdom of peace Isaiah 2 when they will learn war no more etc., the animal kingdom will harm no more and the laws of nature will have to surrender to the saint. Isaiah talks about these things. Christ and the saints will rule with a rod of iron. (Psalm 2:9; Revelation 2:27).

6. The KoH is an everlasting kingdom Daniel 7:27, but the first 1000 years is to rid sin and rebellion and death for good. People will have to abide by the civil law but not all will be saved. These people will be the ones deceived by Satan when he is loosed for a season to cause the revolt of Revelation 20 when they surround the city of Jerusalem and God will destroy them with fire out of heaven (Revelation 20:9).

7. Satan has never been chained in the bottomless pit and will not be in the tribulation but will be in the 1000 year KoH reign on literal earth. This starts the times of the restoration of all things.

8. For those who believe the 1000 years is now is not true to this context for Revelation 20 is in the end times and not the church era.

9. The beast and the false prophet are killed at Armageddon (Revelation 19:19-20). Satan is not thrown into the lake of fire with them until the 1000 years is up and has failed at the last revolt. The son has to reign on earth in order to be able to give the Kingdom back to God the father so God can be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

10. The 1000 year reign for the church is rulership positions in different places. (Revelation 5:10). For Israel it is about fulfilling their covenants and callings as the elect on earth as the head of the nations where the law will go forth from Zion. ( Isaiah 2:2-4). The church has a heavenly calling and are not just rulers in the earthly kingdom.

11. The 1000 years doesn't represent the church age for we will have already been raptured and in heaven in Revelation 4:1. In the middle of the tribulation we will be receiving our rewards for our works (Revelation 11:18). We will come out of heaven with Christ to do battle at Armageddon in Revelation 19.

12. The tribulation is for the purging of Israel (Daniel 9:24-27; Daniel 12:1; Zechariah 13:9; Isaiah 66:7-8).
2 Peter 3:9-11 is about the renovation in the Day of the Lord and not annihilation. Verse 12-13 is looking for the Day of God which will be the final renovation which is not annihilation for fire never annihilates but purifies and God is a consuming and purifying fire. This will happen after the last revolt when God sends down fire from Heaven, Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet were thrown in at the end of the battle of Armageddon. We look forward to the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) when we will be changed with the dead who come with Christ from heaven in verse 15. We also look forward to the Day of God when he will create a new heaven and a new earth. But we are not raptured at the new heaven and the new earth for we are already in the KoH on earth.

13. Christ must rule and reign til he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. The 1st 1000 years is ruling and reigning and death will be destroyed at the GWTJ. So your whole statement that Christ will not rule with sin and rebellion present you misconstrue.

14. First, the second coming is right at the end of the tribulation for Christ comes with his saints at Armageddon to do battle. If we go straight to the New Heaven and the New Earth Christ has no period to rule and reign and put down all sin and rebellion and destroy death and the son will not be able to give the kingdom back to the father so God can be all in all. (1 Corinthians 24-28). Jerry kelso

 

[parousia70]

Common sense, my friend.

"Common sense" is why you reject the words of Christ in Matt 21:40?
Wow. Ok then.

Surely you know that your theory here is in a tiny minority of the Body of Christ as a whole?

Surely you know Christianity began as a tiny minority.....

 

[parousia70]

This was written first to an existing church in Johns day.

Yes, it was.

I had to make sense for them THEN.

Again, Spot on. Jesus mad a promise to those people that His thief's coming would befall THEM, THEN.
Either it did, and Jesus is a true prophet, or it didn't and Jesus is a false prophet.

But God being God, knew this verse would remain for us today.

OK... and God Being God also knew This verse would remain for us today:
Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

Tell me lamad, are you waiting for Timothy's soon arrival to you? ,Or did this verse have a different application to the original Philippians than it does for us today?

All the messages to those seven churches are written as a PERSONAL message to each reader of John's book. In other words, if the shoe fits, CHANGE....on a personal level. All of these messages to the churches are warnings.

Like Php 2:19, We must understand Rev 3:3 as having PRIMARY application to the very original people the letter was addressed to, before we can glean any sort of secondary application for us.

 

[iamlamad]

"Common sense" is why you reject the words of Christ in Matt 21:40?
Wow. Ok then.


Surely you know Christianity began as a tiny minority.....

I surely don't "reject" what Jesus said in Matt. 21. I understand it was a PARABLE. I don't care how many verses you post that you don't really understand, the CHURCH, the BODY of Christ on earth knows Jesus did not return in 70 AD.

Surely you know that God - being the all powerful, all knowing being that He is, could direct events on earth, while He remains in heaven? He has been doing it for some 6000 years or so.

 

[parousia70]

You mean statements like:

Rev 20: 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

No, I was referring statements like:

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)

9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)

14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)

15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)

16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)

17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7)

18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9)

19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Lk. 3:17)

20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Lk. 10:9)

21. “The kingdom of God has come near.” (Lk. 10:11)

22. “What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Lk. 20:15-16,19)

23. “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)

24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32)

25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'” (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.” (Lk. 24:21)

27. "I will come to you. …In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' …'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22)

28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)

29. “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17)

30. “He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31)

31. “There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15)

32. “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…" (Acts 24:25)

33. “Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.” (Rom. 4:23-24)

34. “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)

35. “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18)

36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)

37. “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)

38. “The time has been shortened.” (I Cor. 7:29)

39. “The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)

40. “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

41. “We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (I Cor. 15:51-52)

42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)

43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Eph. 1:21)

44. “The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5)

45. "The gospel …was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)

46. “…things which are a shadow of what is about to come.” (Col. 2:16-17)

47. “…we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord… …We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds… …You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.” (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)

48. “May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Thess. 5:23)

49. “It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” (II Thess. 1:6-7)

50. “Godliness …holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.” (I Tim. 4:8)

51. “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14)

52. “…storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.” (I Tim. 6:19)

53. “In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self… …Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women… …These also oppose the truth… …But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all…” (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)

54. “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (II Tim. 4:1)

55. “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

56. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14)

57. “He did not subject to angels the world about to come.” (Heb. 2:5)

58. “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Heb. 6:5)

59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning.” (Heb. 6:7-8)

60. “When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13)

61. “The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.” (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)

62. “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 9:11)

63. “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)

64. “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 10:1)

65. “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)

66. “…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27)

67. “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

68. “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.” (Heb. 13:14)

69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12)

70. “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (Jms. 5:1,3)

71. “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” (Jms. 5:7)

72. “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8)

73. “…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (I Peter 1:5)

74. “He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20)

75. “They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5)

76. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (I Peter 4:17)

78. “…as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.” (I Peter 5:1)

79. “We have the prophetic word …which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (II Peter 1:19)

80. “Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (II Peter 2:3)

81. “In the last days mockers will come. …For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (I Peter 3:3,5)

82. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.” (II Peter 3:10-12)

83. “The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” (I Jn. 2:8)

84. “The world is passing away, and its desires.” (I Jn. 2:17)

85. “It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

86. “Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)

87. “This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)

88. “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. …About these also Enoch …prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly…'” (Jude 1:4,14-15)

89. “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions…” (Jude 1:17-19)

90. “…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)

91. “The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)

92. “Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.” (Rev. 2:25)

93. “I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.” (Rev. 3:10)

94. “I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 3:11)

95. “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” (Rev. 12:5)

96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)

97. “…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 22:6)

98. "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Rev. 22:7)

99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)

100. "Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:12)

101. "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)

Those are JUST A FEW of the ones Futurists must Spiritualize, metephorize and elasicize to mean the EXACT OPPOSITE of what their plain sense, as written, means.

 

[iamlamad]

Yes, it was.

Again, Spot on. Jesus mad a promise to those people that His thief's coming would befall THEM, THEN.
Either it did, and Jesus is a true prophet, or it didn't and Jesus is a false prophet.



OK... and God Being God also knew This verse would remain for us today:
Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

Tell me lamad, are you waiting for Timothy's soon arrival to you? ,Or did this verse have a different application to the original Philippians than it does for us today?



Like Php 2:19, We must understand Rev 3:3 as having PRIMARY application to the very original people the letter was addressed to, before we can glean any sort of secondary application for us.

You are demonstrating a TRACE of common sense. I don't believe that particular "Timothy" is alive today. This is what I mean by "common sense." Do you know what a parable is?

 

[iamlamad]

No, I was referring statements like:

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)

9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)

14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)

15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)

16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)

17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7)

18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9)

19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Lk. 3:17)

20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Lk. 10:9)

21. “The kingdom of God has come near.” (Lk. 10:11)

22. “What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Lk. 20:15-16,19)

23. “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)

24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32)

25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'” (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.” (Lk. 24:21)

27. "I will come to you. …In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' …'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22)

28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)

29. “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17)

30. “He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31)

31. “There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15)

32. “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…" (Acts 24:25)

33. “Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.” (Rom. 4:23-24)

34. “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)

35. “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18)

36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)

37. “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)

38. “The time has been shortened.” (I Cor. 7:29)

39. “The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)

40. “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

41. “We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (I Cor. 15:51-52)

42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)

43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Eph. 1:21)

44. “The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5)

45. "The gospel …was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)

46. “…things which are a shadow of what is about to come.” (Col. 2:16-17)

47. “…we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord… …We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds… …You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.” (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)

48. “May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Thess. 5:23)

49. “It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” (II Thess. 1:6-7)

50. “Godliness …holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.” (I Tim. 4:8)

51. “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14)

52. “…storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.” (I Tim. 6:19)

53. “In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self… …Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women… …These also oppose the truth… …But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all…” (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)

54. “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (II Tim. 4:1)

55. “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

56. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14)

57. “He did not subject to angels the world about to come.” (Heb. 2:5)

58. “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Heb. 6:5)

59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning.” (Heb. 6:7-8)

60. “When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13)

61. “The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.” (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)

62. “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 9:11)

63. “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)

64. “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 10:1)

65. “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)

66. “…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27)

67. “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

68. “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.” (Heb. 13:14)

69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12)

70. “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (Jms. 5:1,3)

71. “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” (Jms. 5:7)

72. “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8)

73. “…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (I Peter 1:5)

74. “He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20)

75. “They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5)

76. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (I Peter 4:17)

78. “…as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.” (I Peter 5:1)

79. “We have the prophetic word …which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (II Peter 1:19)

80. “Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (II Peter 2:3)

81. “In the last days mockers will come. …For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (I Peter 3:3,5)

82. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.” (II Peter 3:10-12)

83. “The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” (I Jn. 2:8)

84. “The world is passing away, and its desires.” (I Jn. 2:17)

85. “It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

86. “Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)

87. “This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)

88. “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. …About these also Enoch …prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly…'” (Jude 1:4,14-15)

89. “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions…” (Jude 1:17-19)

90. “…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)

91. “The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)

92. “Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.” (Rev. 2:25)

93. “I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.” (Rev. 3:10)

94. “I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 3:11)

95. “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” (Rev. 12:5)

96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)

97. “…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 22:6)

98. "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Rev. 22:7)

99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)

100. "Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:12)

101. "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)

Those are JUST A FEW of the ones Futurists must Spiritualize, metephorize and elasicize to mean the EXACT OPPOSITE of what their plain sense, as written, means.

I certainly won't do your homework for you. There are SO MANY MORE that PROVE what you THINK happened in 70 AD didn't. WAKE UP! Use a little sense.

Hebrews 1:2
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

The "last days" began when Jesus was born. I hope you realize that God does not see time the way you do. "last days" to Him may well be 2000 years,

 

[parousia70]

I surely don't "reject" what Jesus said in Matt. 21.

Oh... because i asked you "why do you reject Jesus words" and you replied "Common sense"

I understand it was a PARABLE. I don't care how many verses you post that you don't really understand, the CHURCH, the BODY of Christ on earth knows Jesus did not return in 70 AD.

The fact of the Judgement coming of Christ in 70 AD, as He foretold in Matt 21, is well attested by the Church, the Body of Christ throughout it's History... the recent advent of dispensational futurism is actually the minority view.

Surely you know that God - being the all powerful, all knowing being that He is, could direct events on earth, while He remains in heaven? He has been doing it for some 6000 years or so.

That's the Point.
Throughout scripture, that act of God in heaven directing temporal judgement events on earth is referred to by the Prophets as God "coming on the clouds". We see this applied to Christ quite clearly in Revlation 14:14, where Christ is depicted sitting on a cloud in Heaven directing judgment events on the earth.

Revelation 14:14 is the same cloud coming of Christ found in Revelation 1:7, proving St John is not describing Christ riding atop cumulus clouds in earth's atmosphere, rather he is depicting Christ as equal with the father God, for it is only God who rides clouds in Judgment, enthroned in Heaven, directing events on earth as you rightly professed.

 

[parousia70]

Hebrews 1:2
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

The "last days" began when Jesus was born.

So the day before he was born, the end of the last days was FAR OFF, but the day after He was born it was "NEAR"?

2000 years = NEAR, but 2000 years + 1 day = FAR AWAY?

I hope you realize that God does not see time the way you do. "last days" to Him may well be 2000 years,

I hope you realize that God knows how to tell time correctly, and is quite capable of communicating time spans correctly to Humans, who, unlike Him, are trapped in time.

 

[parousia70]

You are demonstrating a TRACE of common sense. I don't believe that particular "Timothy" is alive today. This is what I mean by "common sense."

So do you believe those particular Christians that Christ was addressing at the 1st century Church at Sardis are alive today?

Do you know what a parable is?

I do.
Are you claiming that Revelation 3:3 a parable?

 

[BABerean2]

The 1000 year reign is literal in Revelation 20.

Jerry,

If you can explain the other passages that say Christ will judge all those alive and dead at His Second Coming from Post #400 above, then I will accept your millennial viewpoint as correct. Otherwise, it is only your opinion based on one passage that causes tremendous conflict in many other passages and therefore cannot be the correct interpretation.

Your words do not match up with the words of Jesus in John chapter 5 and Matthew chapter 25.

.

 

[ewq1938]

You would rather twist, and redefine the words of Christ in John chapter 5 and ignore or redefine the text of numerous other passages to make your 1,000 year carnal kingdom work.
And then you claim this is the correct interpretation.

I don't ignore or redefine anything which is why you can't provide a quote of this happening.

......................................................................................................................

Millennial Choice…

Take note the "Beraen" starts off talking about the resurrection not the Millennium.

All of us have to make the choice of making some unit of time not "literal".

The length of the thousand years is irrelevant to Premil. There are three possible choices about how long the thousadn years is.

1. Exactly 1000 years. Most likely option.
2. Unknown length of time longer than 1000 years. No examples of this in scripture because no example uses 10000 of years to be more than 1000 years.
3. Unknown period of time SHORTER than 1000 years. Similar to how the modern expression would be, "Traffic was so bad today it took a thousand years to get home!"

We have "hour" and "all" in John chapter 5, where Jesus indicates a simultaneous resurrection of both the Godly and the ungodly.

And this errant view has been corrected many times. It doesn't say "all AT THE SAME EXACT TIME". Amil inserts that into the verse completely ignoring Rev 20 which states there is a thousand years inbetween the two resurrections and totally ignores that Paul wrote the dead in Christ rise before any of the other dead do.

We find the same thing in the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew chapter 25.

No we don't. That is a separating not a resurrecting. Also, it shows one groupd being dealt with before the other group which destroys your entire argument that it's done all at the same time:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The saved are dealt with FIRST.

Mat 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

This shows that the rest are dealt with at a separate time.

(This verse shows the wicked being cast into hell at the Second Coming of Christ.)

No, it shows that both groups are dealt with AFTER the second coming. The passage does not say when each takes place.

2Ti_4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

(The word “quick” here is a reference to the living.)

That judgment at his coming is the separating. The rewarding and punishing is not at the second coming.

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

We have the same simultaneous resurrection from Job 14:12, Daniel 12:1-3, Paul in Acts 24:15, and John in Rev. 11:18.


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

This ignores that a judgment is not always the same judgment. A judgment is a decision an at this time Christ's judgment is to separate the bad from the good. Other scriptures show the good will reign over the bad for a thousand years.

The judgment of the bad/wicked/unsaved happens prior to the eternity and at that time none of the saved are judged.

We have Jesus discussing the resurrection at the "last day" in John chapter 6.

Context shows Christ is only speaking about those that are saved and the last day he speaks about is the last day of this age, before the thousand years begins. That last day is not to be confused with the last day of the next age which is prior to the eternity when only the wicked dead are raised.

How many days come after the last day?

Many, see above.

Some claim the word "thousand" cannot be figurative. Well, let us see...

Try finding a figurative of speech regarding a thousand years being figurative.

...or we can understand that John saw the "souls" of those who died in-Christ living and reigning with Christ in heaven for a very long (1,000) time before the return of Christ.

Except they reign with Christ on Earth (Rev_5:10 ) and they reign over the nations of the Earth with a rod of Iron (Rev 2:26-27) and this is exactly what Rev 20 shows us, which is additionally after the second coming in the previous chapter.

This is a reference to the length of time that the souls reign, but it does not discuss how long Christ reigns. His reign is given as forever in Rev. chapter 11.

Not his reign with a rod of iron. That is a limited reign and at it's end he hands over the kingdom to his father.

The 1,000 year reign of Christ is an assumption, not found in the text.

Wrong:


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Amil claims it's not in the text yet it's in the text twice. Nice job reading Amil

We should all be bothered by the idea of mortals living to a very old age, but still dying after the return of Christ.

Would Christ perform their funeral service?


Where would their souls go, since Christ is here?

Where is death written about in the thousand years? There is death found after it, but where does it say during?

If the Christians are ruling over these mortals during the 1,000 years we must do a terrible job if they rebel against Christ at the end of the 1,000 years.

Wrong. They are controlled with a rod of iron only for a thousand years, after that they are deceived by Satan. It was not God's plan to continue to keep them in line and behaving after the thousand years.

Does Christ just let Satan out of the pit and allow him to foment a rebellion, all while Christ is in control of the planet?

Yes.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


I assume these verses are in your bible?

The only way to prevent a tremendous conflict in scripture is to understand that the 1,000 years is a symbol that represents the whole "Church Age".

That would be severe error and causes scriptural confusion as we have seen in this post. No scripture even suggests this type of interpretation anyways.

The One who defeated sin and death at the Cross is not going to rule over a world where death and sin remain at His Second Coming.

Death and sin exist in Rev 20:7-9 doesn't it? Why do you pretend those verses don't exist? Because you haven imaginary idea of what the future holds?

He brings the New Heavens and the New Earth with Him when He returns.

More unscriptural statements I can prove wrong with scripture.

The NHNE comes only AFTER judgment day when the wicked are cast into the LOF:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

This does not happen at the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Yet Amil claims this happens:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ DO NOT RISE FIRST the dead in Christ rise at the same time as the dead NOT IN CHRIST.

 

[ewq1938]

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

Here, AGAIN, is the thing all partial preterists ignore. Did the second coming (including the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture) happen in Ad 70?

If you answer no, then partial preterism is debunked.

No, I was referring statements like:

1. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

2. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)

3. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)

4. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

5. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)

6. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 10:7)

7. "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

8. "....the age about to come." (Matt. 12:32)

9. "The Son of Man is about to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds." (Matt. 16:27)

10. "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)

11. "'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)

12. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)

13. "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69)

14. "The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15)

15. "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. ....They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them." (Mk. 12:9,12)

16. "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Mk. 13:30)

17. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?” (Lk. 3:7)

18. “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. " (Lk. 3:9)

19. "His winnowing fork is in His hand…." (Lk. 3:17)

20. “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” (Lk. 10:9)

21. “The kingdom of God has come near.” (Lk. 10:11)

22. “What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." …The scribes and the chief priests …understood that He spoke this parable against them.” (Lk. 20:15-16,19)

23. “These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)

24. "This generation will not pass away until all things take place.” (Lk. 21:32)

25. "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'” (Lk. 23:28-30; Compare Rev. 6:14-17)

26. "We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel.” (Lk. 24:21)

27. "I will come to you. …In that Day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.' …'Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world?'" (Jn. 14:18,20,22)

28. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" (Jn. 21:22)

29. “This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17)

30. “He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31)

31. “There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” (Acts 24:15)

32. “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…" (Acts 24:25)

33. “Not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned.” (Rom. 4:23-24)

34. “If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die.” (Rom. 8:13)

35. “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18)

36. "It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand." (Rom. 13:11-12)

37. “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)

38. “The time has been shortened.” (I Cor. 7:29)

39. “The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)

40. “Now these things …were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.” (I Cor. 10:11)

41. “We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.” (I Cor. 15:51-52)

42. "Maranatha!" [The Lord comes!] (I Cor. 16:22)

43. "...not only in this age, but also in the one about to come.” (Eph. 1:21)

44. “The Lord is near.” (Phil. 4:5)

45. "The gospel …was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." (Col. 1:23; Compare Matt. 24:14; Rom. 10:18; 16:26; Col. 1:5-6; II Tim. 4:17; Rev. 14:6-7; cf. I Clement 5,7)

46. “…things which are a shadow of what is about to come.” (Col. 2:16-17)

47. “…we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord… …We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds… …You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.” (I Thess. 4:15,17; 5:4)

48. “May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Thess. 5:23)

49. “It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.” (II Thess. 1:6-7)

50. “Godliness …holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come.” (I Tim. 4:8)

51. “I charge you …that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I Tim. 6:14)

52. “…storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.” (I Tim. 6:19)

53. “In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self… …Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women… …These also oppose the truth… …But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all…” (II Tim. 3:1-2,5-6,8-9)

54. “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to judge the living and the dead…” (II Tim. 4:1)

55. “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” (Heb. 1:1-2)

56. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14)

57. “He did not subject to angels the world about to come.” (Heb. 2:5)

58. “…and have tasted …the powers of the age about to come.” (Heb. 6:5)

59. "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and it's end is for burning.” (Heb. 6:7-8)

60. “When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13)

61. “The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.” (Heb. 9:8-10; Compare Gal. 4:19; Eph. 2:21-22; 3:17; 4:13)

62. “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 9:11)

63. “Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin.” (Heb. 9:26)

64. “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come…” (Heb. 10:1)

65. “…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)

66. “…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27)

67. “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.” (Heb. 10:37)

68. “For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come.” (Heb. 13:14)

69. "Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty." (Jms. 2:12)

70. “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. …It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!” (Jms. 5:1,3)

71. “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.” (Jms. 5:7)

72. “You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8)

73. “…salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (I Peter 1:5)

74. “He …has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” (I Peter 1:20)

75. “They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5)

76. “The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.” (I Peter 4:7)

77. "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God.” (I Peter 4:17)

78. “…as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed.” (I Peter 5:1)

79. “We have the prophetic word …which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (II Peter 1:19)

80. “Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (II Peter 2:3)

81. “In the last days mockers will come. …For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (I Peter 3:3,5)

82. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.” (II Peter 3:10-12)

83. “The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.” (I Jn. 2:8)

84. “The world is passing away, and its desires.” (I Jn. 2:17)

85. “It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)

86. “Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18; Compare Matt. 24:23-34)

87. “This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” (I Jn. 4:3; Compare II Thess. 2:7)

88. “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. …About these also Enoch …prophesied, saying, 'Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly…'” (Jude 1:4,14-15)

89. “But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, 'In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.' These are the ones who cause divisions…” (Jude 1:17-19)

90. “…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)

91. “The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)

92. “Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.” (Rev. 2:25)

93. “I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world.” (Rev. 3:10)

94. “I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 3:11)

95. “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” (Rev. 12:5)

96. "And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24; Compare Matt. 23:35-36; Lk. 11:50-51)

97. “…to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 22:6)

98. "Behold, I am coming quickly. " (Rev. 22:7)

99. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10; Compare Dan. 8:26)

100. "Behold, I am coming quickly.” (Rev. 22:12)

101. "Yes, I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:20)

Those are JUST A FEW of the ones Futurists must Spiritualize, metephorize and elasicize to mean the EXACT OPPOSITE of what their plain sense, as written, means.

 

[parousia70]

The NHNE comes only AFTER judgment day when the wicked are cast into the LOF:

Is this the Same NHNE Isaiah prophesies about here?:

Isaiah 65:17-23
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.


Here we see that in the NHNE time period Isaiah prophesies of, there will be:
Procreation
Birth
Ageing
Death
Sinners
The need for Shelter from the elements
Vocations/Labor
The need for nourishment
The passing of time marked in days

Is it the same NHNE John speaks of as a place where the Nations are in need of continual Healing? Where trees produce fruit every 30 Days? (Revelation 22:2)
Where Just outside the city's gates are Dogs, Sorcerers, Murderers, liars, fornicators, etc? (Revelation 22:15)
Where the Spirit and Bride call from inside the City to everyone outside the gates who thirst, to "Come freely and drink"? (Revelation 22:17)

So again, is this the same NHNE you are referring to, or do you mean some different NHNE than Isaiah & John are speaking of above?

 

[BABerean2]

Yet Amil claims this happens:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ DO NOT RISE FIRST the dead in Christ rise at the same time as the dead NOT IN CHRIST.

During the same hour would be the correct answer...


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

The resurrection of all the dead and their judgment occur during the same hour.
.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

If you can explain the other passages that say Christ will judge all those alive and dead at His Second Coming from Post #400 above, then I will accept your millennial viewpoint as correct. Otherwise, it is only your opinion based on one passage that causes tremendous conflict in many other passages and therefore cannot be the correct interpretation.

Your words do not match up with the words of Jesus in John chapter 5 and Matthew chapter 25.

.

baberean2,

1. 2 Timothy 4:1; I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.

2. His appearing is the rapture of the dead in Christ (old and new testament saints) and the living saints of the church.
The Kingdom is the KoH which Jesus preached to the jews that the jews would be at the head of the nations of the earth. (Isaiah 2:2-4). This is why Jesus said, Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth which came from the old testament speaking of the earthly kingdom in the earthly calling of the jews. The jews rejected the message of the KoG in its spiritual aspect (Matthew 6:33) and could not receive the physical kingdom (Matthew 23:37-39).

4. Matthew 25:32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. This is about the judgement of the nations and how they treated Israel. Verse 31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. This judgement concerns the nations after the battle of Armageddon which is at the end of the tribulation then the kingdom is set up. This is the context and the reason many miss the overall context is because they are taught as written to the church in ethical teachings. There is nothing wrong with ethical teachings as in the Sermon on the Mount but the message of the KoH and the KoG in it's dispensational stewardship in the time of the Mosaic law that the church was never under to begin with needs to be understood.

5. There will be missionary work in the kingdom as well as ruling and making sure the civil law is obeyed. Those who do not obey the civil law will be punished accordingly and immediately. (Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 2:27 and Revelation 12:5; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 19:15).
There will be people in the kingdom that will not be a saved, servant of God but obey the civil law and will be and their offspring allowed to live. At the end of the 1st 1000 years of the KoH the revolt of Gog and Magog in Revelation 20 is for the deceiving of the nations. These deceived are the ones who obeyed the civil law and who didn't give their hearts to God.

6. John 5:27; the son will execute judgement. Verse 28-29 is about the resurrections of those to life and those who have done evil. These do not happen at the same time for the evil ones are not resurrected until a literal 1000 years after the good of the tribulations saints. Revelation 4:6-7. The second death or resurrection is the only time sinners are resurrected and judged which is at the GWTJ. Revelation 20:7-9.

7. The context of the KoH in Jesus day will be the same basic context in the last days concerning Israel and tribulation saints and the judgment of the nations and the tares and the wheat. There is no contradiction of what I said according to the scripture and what Jesus said.

8. Luke said, Jesus come to seek and save that which was lost. What was lost concerning the KoH to begin with? In the garden was the KoH and the KoG which was the physical and the spiritual rule. Adam and Eve was kicked out of the garden and lost the physical rule of the garden and the spiritual aspect of God ruling their hearts which was the result of sin.
Jesus came to restore both of these kingdoms to Israel because of the promise to them as the oracles of God and the children of the covenant promises of Abraham (the land) and David (the kingdom) as the head of the nations. Isaiah 2:2-4.

9. The rejection of Israel is found in Matthew 23:37-39 and Jesus said he wouldn't see them again until they come saying Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
I have already stated the covenants of Abraham and David concerning Israel being different as the nation and the church of jews and gentiles during the church period and their calling.

10. The KoH and the KoG message will be restored completely to Israel at the end of the tribulation for all the families will come to Israel to celebrate the feasts of tabernacles. Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 2:2-4 where the law will go forth from Israel and Jerusalem to be more specific over the nations.
The KoG spiritually was restored at Calvary for the world and the KoH as the earthly reign will not be till the end of the tribulation for this is what the subject is in Revelation.
The 1st 1000 years is to put down all sin and rebellion and rid the world of death which will be last. This will not happen until the last revolt and the GWTJ.

John 5:27-29; context of the resurrections of those who chose life in Christ and those who have done evil. These in Revelation 20:4-6 are a literal 1000 years apart.
Matthew 25: context of the Judgement of the nations and how they treated Israel and some will be goats and others sheep.
There is no contradiction of what I said according to the scripture and what Jesus said. If you have any more questions specifically feel free to ask. Jerry kelso