Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[iamlamad]

According to Jesus in Matthew 21:33-45, there was.

So, how many "comings" total do you believe in then?

Did His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives? Was there a great earthquake that split the mountain? Did the battle of Armageddon take place then? Did He come as Lightning lighting up a dark sky? Or is all that a DIFFERENT coming? Ah! I know: it was a SECRET coming! And a rapture probably happened then too! Only thing is, there is no proof for any of this.

 

[parousia70]

Exactly! I do believe the first 5 seals are past. I believe the chapters 1-5 took place in the past.

You believe this verse was fulfilled in the past?

Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore you will not watch, I will come on you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

 

[parousia70]

So, how many "comings" total do you believe in then?

Did His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives? Was there a great earthquake that split the mountain? Did the battle of Armageddon take place then? Did He come as Lightning lighting up a dark sky? Or is all that a DIFFERENT coming? Ah! I know: it was a SECRET coming! And a rapture probably happened then too! Only thing is, there is no proof for any of this.

What about Matthew 21:33-45 do you disagree with?

Is Jesus not the Chief Cornerstone? (vs 42-44)
Were those wicked men not destroyed?(Vs 41)

 

[parousia70]

Did His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives? Was there a great earthquake that split the mountain? Did the battle of Armageddon take place then? Did He come as Lightning lighting up a dark sky?

Do you understand the set precedent of the OT Prophets regarding the usage and interpretation of such language?

You must not, for you are exhorting us to apply a POLAR OPPOSITE interpretation to that set precedent.

 

[ewq1938]

Really...

Then how do you explain this verse?


Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Almost all scholars, including John Darby, have agreed that this verse is about 70 AD.
.

That's called hearsay. Quote "almost all scholars" to prove what you claim. Secondly, It doesn't matter what some people claim is true. Again, the second coming is part of the events from the discourse that Christ said a certain generation would live to see. Jesus didn't return in AD 70 so it proves preterism and the whole AD 70 doctrine to be false. No preterist ever faces that dilemma.

 

[ewq1938]

According to Jesus in Matthew 21:33-45, there was.

Jesus was not speaking about AD 70, nor did Christ return at that time, nor did all dead saints resurrected into immortal bodies to live and reign with Christ nor did the rapture happen.

 

[jerry kelso]

If you will make just one point in each email I will then address that one point.

jan001,
I have had some internet problems so sorry for the delay.

The 1000 years is literal and has nothing to do with being now.

The 1000 years is literal because it is associated with the future tribulation saints who don't take the mark. Revelation 16 and Revelation 20 and not the church of today.

The church is not ruling physically in the KoH reign because we are being trained for the kingdom rulership positions now. 2 Timothy 2:12.
The church will not be at the head of the nations where the law will come out of Zion because we are not physical Israel Isaiah 2:2-4.

God rules in the hearts of saints today but spiritual warfare is learning to fill the rulership positions in the future.
If one believes they are in the millennial kingdom they rob Israel of their callings and election. Read Romans 11-25-32.
If we were in the physical KoH the animal kingdom would not harm anything as Isaiah said.
If we were in the physical KoH the laws of the nature would be under our control and we could say to the mountain and it would literally move. Jesus mentioned this while rebuking the disciples for not having faith as a mustard seed.
The church rulership in the KoH is different than today in the church age because it is spiritual and physical over the earth and today that is not true.

The 1000 years in Revelation 20 is after the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

The battle of Armageddon is in Revelation 16 and is on the kingdom beast worshippers and Satan is in the pit for 1000 years so he won't be able to deceive the nations until the 1000 years is over. The last rebellion is when Satan is loosed from the pit after the 1000 years.
Satan is not bound now or in the coming tribulation and will not be until Christ comes back at the battle of Armageddon and the kingdom begins. Christ will rule with a rod of iron with his saints (Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 2:27).
Christ has to take over physically the nations of earth and this has not happened and will not until at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 11:15).

The 2 resurrections are 1000 years apart; the beast and the false prophet killed in the battle of Armageddon and Satan thrown in the lake of fire after the 1000 years. You want to make Armageddon and the last revolt the same and this is not true because Satan is still deceiving at the battle of Armageddon in the tribulation so their is no period of him being bound unless it is after Armageddon. This is why Gog and Magog cannot be the same timing as Armageddon. Because this is true Christ can set up the kingdom and earthly people can obey the civil law and not be a saved person and be deceived. Also, Christ and his saints will be coming out of heaven and he will destroy with the brightness of his coming (Revelation 19 and 2 Thessalonians 2) Gog and Magog God destroys with fire out of heaven.

The bottom line is that you have no scriptural proof to make the 1000 years non-literal only as in the Lord's view of time.
You also have no proof that the church is ruling today physically. The church today is not associated with the specific 1000 year reign according to the tribulation saints who don't take the mark. The church is not physical Israel and do not have the specific covenant and callings and election as they do. Paul tells us this in Revelation 11:25-32.
For those who believe Israel's calling is over as the head of the nations and the law going forth out of Zion do not believe the scripture and they are replacement theology believers which is not scriptural.
The 1000 years is associated with the restitution of all things which is associated with the true physical KoH reign which Peter and the disciples asked the Lord about before he was ascended and when he saw different signs that would be the same as in the end of times.
This shows that Israel will be the focus of Jacob's trouble which Daniel speaks of in Daniel 12:1 and not the church.
The whole essence of the church ruling now in the kingdom is not scriptural and not in context with Revelation 20. Replacement theology borders on anti-semitic towards the jews because it says the church has taken it's place. Jerry Kelso

 

[iamlamad]

Do you understand the set precedent of the OT Prophets regarding the usage and interpretation of such language?

You must not, for you are exhorting us to apply a POLAR OPPOSITE interpretation to that set precedent.

I am sorry if you can't tell the difference between symbolic language and literal language. Since you don't know, you end up with nonsense.

If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense.

Much of Revelation and the Minor prophets on end times scripture makes perfect sense as written.

 

[iamlamad]

You believe this verse was fulfilled in the past?

Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore you will not watch, I will come on you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

This was written first to an existing church in Johns day. I had to make sense for them THEN. But God being God, knew this verse would remain for us today. All the messages to those seven churches are written as a PERSONAL message to each reader of John's book. In other words, if the shoe fits, CHANGE....on a personal level. All of these messages to the churches are warnings.

 

[iamlamad]

What about Matthew 21:33-45 do you disagree with?

Is Jesus not the Chief Cornerstone? (vs 42-44)
Were those wicked men not destroyed?(Vs 41)

First remember that this is a parable. Parables are meant to teach ONE main truth. Yes, He Is the Chief Cornerstone. For sure those who put Christ on the cross as we read in the gospels were destroyed - if they did not get born again.

The leaders of the Jews were not completely ignorant:

45. Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

They knew enough to know this parable was pointed straight at them. In fact, you might say they prophesied their own doom:

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

 

[parousia70]

I am sorry if you can't tell the difference between symbolic language and literal language. Since you don't know, you end up with nonsense.

If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense.

Much of Revelation and the Minor prophets on end times scripture makes perfect sense as written.

Except for all those pesky time statements.....Gotta make those elastic, metaphoric and spiritual, can let them stand in their plain sense, as written can we?

 

[parousia70]

First remember that this is a parable. Parables are meant to teach ONE main truth. Yes, He Is the Chief Cornerstone. For sure those who put Christ on the cross as we read in the gospels were destroyed - if they did not get born again.

The leaders of the Jews were not completely ignorant:

45. Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

They knew enough to know this parable was pointed straight at them. In fact, you might say they prophesied their own doom:

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

Who then do you say is the "He" that destroyed them?

Since you agree with me that the parable was directed at them, and you agree that it was a prophesy about their destruction in 70AD, why do you reject Christ's words that their destruction, which you profess happened in the 1st century, would come via "The coming of the Lord"? (vs 40)

 

[Job8]

Revelation 20:4 says,
"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
This passage says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem. Those that teach this are duty-bound to prove their doctrine with scripture.

Why don't you take some time to study the literal, physical, and perfect Kingdom of God on earth as shown throughout Scripture, instead of coming up with this kind of specious argument? God expects us to read His entire Word and then use the intelligence He has given us to put everything together as an integrated whole. One of the key doctrines of Scripture is the Kingdom of God. It would take reams and reams of paper to describe God's literal physical Kingdom on earth, but if you want proof, go to the primary source -- the Bible -- from Genesis to Revelation. The verse you have quoted is a succinct summary, that's all. And that is a real Millennium, not what some imagine while Satan roams the earth creating havoc on every side.

 

[parousia70]

Jesus didn't return in AD 70 so it proves preterism and the whole AD 70 doctrine to be false.

Circular reasoning.
Of course we reject that.

No preterist ever faces that dilemma.

ALL pretersts side with scripture, not newspapers.
Newspaper eissegesis is the Futurist's dilema that none of them are willing to face.

 

[parousia70]

God expects us to read His entire Word

Then What did God expect for the first 1500 years of Christianity when there was no such thing as mass literacy?

 

[ewq1938]

Except for all those pesky time statements.....Gotta make those elastic, metaphoric and spiritual, can let them stand in their plain sense, as written can we?

And Amil does that because the doctrine is not scripturally supported by Rev 20. Dead people who were beheaded (not just killed in any way as Amil claims) in the trib for refusing the mark (Amil doesn't acknowledge this fact either) are seen to live again (that's a resurrection when the dead come to life) known as the first of two mass bodily resurrections (Amil twists this from a mass bodily resurrection to a spiritual resurrection any time someone is born again, destroying the context of Rev 20 and inserting their own invented context). Then a thousand years passes (again Amil does not "let them stand in their plain sense" but claims this means a very long unknown time citing examples that have nothing to do with time, and from the OT not the NT or Greek) and only after this are the rest of the dead resurrected (Amil also claims this is when all the dead are resurrected ignoring that Rev 20 says all the dead are not resurrected at the same time.)

 

[Job8]

Then What did God expect for the first 1500 years of Christianity when there was no such thing as mass literacy?

That's an issue for another day. We are talking about today, when with the click of a mouse one can access the entire Bible (even in the so-called illiterate lands). One of the greatest sins in the churches has been the neglect (or dismissal) of the prophetic books and what they have to teach regarding the Kingdom of Christ. Therefore there are few Christians who actually have gone into the Bible to examine the Millennium as well as the eternal Kingdom of God on earth, and throughout the universe. You can blame the Amillenialists for this serious neglect.

 

[ewq1938]

Circular reasoning.
Of course we reject that.

That isn't an example of circular reasoning. It's a historical fact the second coming did not occur but Christ said that generation which saw the tribulation would also see the second coming.

ALL pretersts side with scripture, not newspapers.

Actually they side with prophecies that never were fulfilled, and have zero evidence to support their claims plus as you see above, they always ignore that the second coming didn't happen proving AD 70 did not fulfill the Olivet discourse.

 

[Hoghead1]

One must bear in mind that there is more than one interpretations of any given Scriptural text.

 

[BABerean2]

And Amil does that because the doctrine is not scripturally supported by Rev 20. Dead people who were beheaded (not just killed in any way as Amil claims) in the trib for refusing the mark (Amil doesn't acknowledge this fact either) are seen to live again (that's a resurrection when the dead come to life) known as the first of two mass bodily resurrections (Amil twists this from a mass bodily resurrection to a spiritual resurrection any time someone is born again, destroying the context of Rev 20 and inserting their own invented context). Then a thousand years passes (again Amil does not "let them stand in their plain sense" but claims this means a very long unknown time citing examples that have nothing to do with time, and from the OT not the NT or Greek) and only after this are the rest of the dead resurrected (Amil also claims this is when all the dead are resurrected ignoring that Rev 20 says all the dead are not resurrected at the same time.)

You would rather twist, and redefine the words of Christ in John chapter 5 and ignore or redefine the text of numerous other passages to make your 1,000 year carnal kingdom work.
And then you claim this is the correct interpretation.
......................................................................................................................
Millennial Choice…


All of us have to make the choice of making some unit of time not "literal".


We have "hour" and "all" in John chapter 5, where Jesus indicates a simultaneous resurrection of both the Godly and the ungodly.


Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.


Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice


Joh 5:29 and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


We find the same thing in the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew chapter 25.


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(This verse shows the wicked being cast into hell at the Second Coming of Christ.)


Christ will judge both those alive and dead at His Second Coming.


2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
(The word “quick” here is a reference to the living.)


Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


We have the same simultaneous resurrection from Job 14:12, Daniel 12:1-3, Paul in Acts 24:15, and John in Rev. 11:18.


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."


We have Jesus discussing the resurrection at the "last day" in John chapter 6.


Martha confirmed this understanding after the death of her brother Lazarus.


How many days come after the last day?


Some claim the word "thousand" cannot be figurative. Well, let us see...


Psa_50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.


God owns all of the hills. However, in the verse above the word "thousand" is used to represent a very large number. It is used figuratively.


We can redefine all of these other units of time, from several different witnesses, and get a 1,000 year reign of Christ after His Second Coming, where sin and death continue, by making some assumptions...


...or we can understand that John saw the "souls" of those who died in-Christ living and reigning with Christ in heaven for a very long (1,000) time before the return of Christ. This is a reference to the length of time that the souls reign, but it does not discuss how long Christ reigns. His reign is given as forever in Rev. chapter 11.


The 1,000 year reign of Christ is an assumption, not found in the text.


If I married the Queen of England in the future, at some point in time the historians might write about how long I reigned with her.


However, that would not be the length of her reign, which would be much longer.


We should all be bothered by the idea of mortals living to a very old age, but still dying after the return of Christ.


Would Christ perform their funeral service?


Where would their souls go, since Christ is here?


If the Christians are ruling over these mortals during the 1,000 years we must do a terrible job if they rebel against Christ at the end of the 1,000 years.


Does Christ just let Satan out of the pit and allow him to foment a rebellion, all while Christ is in control of the planet?


We also know God has already bound wicked angels in chains.


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



The only way to prevent a tremendous conflict in scripture is to understand that the 1,000 years is a symbol that represents the whole "Church Age".


The One who defeated sin and death at the Cross is not going to rule over a world where death and sin remain at His Second Coming.


He brings the New Heavens and the New Earth with Him when He returns.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.


1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1Th 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.


1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.




2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.


2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, (This is speaking to the Church.)


2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?


2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
(This verse was written to the Church.)
.