Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[Jan001]

jan001,

1. There is no scripture that says saints reign from heaven right now. In what way is Christ reigning from heaven? He is supposed to reign in a christian's heart. We are being trained right now through our sufferings right now because if we suffer, we shall reign. This is no present time reigning in the physical kingdom. We are in a war against spiritual wickedness etc. but spiritual warfare is not the same as the physical reign where the first 1000 years will be Israel becoming the head of the nations and the saints ruling around in different positions on earth.

2. Peter and Paul talked about the kingdom reign on earth as well as John the Revelator and never put it in the context of Christ and his saints ruling from heaven down to earth through believers without the kingdoms of the world being ruled physically by Christ and his theocracy. And yet you want to say we are in the millennial kingdom which doesn't match up. The millennial kingdom is also related to the restitution of all things which Peter mentioned in the book of Acts. He even mentioned about what Joel said about the pouring of the Holy Spirit being a sign of the end times but not a fulfillment because if you read Joel creation has to be free of the curse.

3. There is no scripture to show that Christ and the saints rule from heaven. There is no scripture to prove that the spiritual rule against wickedness in the church age has anything to do with the millennial kingdom. There is no scripture to prove that the 1000 years is in the church age with no kingdoms physically subdued on earth and no curse that is not being lifted. There is no context in the scripture to prove in the total and complete picture that the 1000 years is here right now and that we go into the Kingdom of God all in all instead of the first 1000 years to rid sin and rebellion of the rebels who are deceived and revolt before they are destroyed by fire out of heaven which is different from the battle of Armageddon which is right before the Millennial kingdom. The Kingdom of God all in all is different than the Day of the Lord when Christ will rule and reign with his saints literally on earth.

4. JESUS HAS TO RULE AND REIGN UNTIL DEATH IS DESTROYED FOR HIM TO GIVE THE KINGDOM BACK TO GOD THE FATHER. READ 1 CORINTHIANS 15:28. PSALM 2:9; JESUS WILL RULE WITH A ROD OF IRON AND SO WILL SAINTS (REVELATION 2:26-27) UNTIL DEATH IS PHYSICALLY DONE AWAY WITH ON EARTH (1 CORINTHIANS 15:24-25) BECAUSE DEATH WAS OVERCOME SPIRITUALLY AT THE CROSS. REVELATION 1:18. Jerry Kelso

We will agree to disagree.
May God bless you!

 

[Jan001]

You did well in that there are two resurrections that will include all of humanity: the chief or primary resurrection that includes all righteous, and the second or second death resurrection that will include all sinners. Since there is and ever will be ONLY ONE resurrection for the righteous, then Jesus was the firstfruits of the first or primary resurrection. Those whom Jesus called up with Him - the elders of the Old Covenant - would be the second fruits, third fruits etc of the primary or chief resurrection - the one the KJV calls "the first." Then, the dead in Christ will make the next wave of resurrections in the first or primary resurrection. Finally those beheaded by the beast will be resurrected. All of these will be a part of this chief of resurrections for the righteous.

AS for your bolded print, you can be wrong if you want to be - and it appears you do. There WILL BE a pretrib rapture, but since you don't believe in it, you will not partake in it. Therefore, GET READY for hard days are coming for you. You will be left behind to face both the BEAST and the wrath of God. Oh, God did not set your appointment with His wrath - YOU SET IT YOURSELF by not believing that He is coming first FOR His saints. You will be OVERCOME: both Daniel and John have told you this - yet you don't believe it. I would HIGHLY recommend you camp out in 1 Thes. 5 until you understand Paul's TIMING.
His timing is that the pretrib rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Not the entire day, but the BEGINNING, right where John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." That day will come the moment the dead in Christ rise, but those alive in Christ will be caught up so that the sudden destruction start of the Day of His wrath will not affect them: they will get 'Salvation" or raptured, while those left behind are caught in the sudden destruction. The righteous are raptured out because God will have set NO APPOINTMENTS for His bride. The appointments are for those left behind. The wrath is for those who are left behind.

You escape reality in yet another direction: the white throne judgment will not be until AFTER Jesus has returned to earth and reigned with a rod of iron for a thousand years. So you are AT LEAST a thousand years off. You escape reality and truth yet again, for the 1000 year reign is FUTURE, not history. How in the world did you get SO FAR OFF from truth?

The 7th trumpet of Revelation 11 is now history.

You missed it BIG TIME here. If the 7th is history, the ALL the trumpets are history! WAKE UP! NONE Of the trumpets have ever happened. Did you not know, NO PRETERIST HAS EVER found proof that even one of the trumpet judgments have come - for the very simply reason, THEY ARE ALL FUTURE. Have you ever seen a flying scorpion locust with teeth like a lion? Of course you have not, for NO ONE has seen them - for the simple fact: THEY ARE FUTURE.

It is impossible for there to be another first resurrection.

Of course not! This one and only PRIMARY resurrection covers ALL the righteous from Jesus to the very last one beheaded. By the way, we understand the parenthesis.

The "thousand years" is a figure of speech for an unknown quantity, in this case an unknown quantity of time.

Are you telling us that God cannot cause someone to write "one thousand" and NOT MEAN IT? You really need to rethink this. Only wolves in sheep's clothing that do not believe His word - or someone that simply does not understand Revelation - would say this is a figure of speech.

The second resurrection occurs at the sound of the last trumpet.

WOW! Are you ever mixed up! Paul told us HIS RAPTURE - the one HE wrote about, would come "at the last trump." And this trumpet will come just before the 6th seal in Revelation, as a PRETRIB trumpet calling up the dead in Christ. WAKE UP! The second resurrection will come AFTER the 1000 years you refuse to believe in.

Sorry, the rest of your post is so totally off base I refuse to comment further.

We will agree to disagree.
May God bless you!

 

[Jan001]

Death is destroyed at sound of the last trumpet. All the dead are resurrected. Every person receives an immortal body after the last trumpet sounds. There will be no more death. Immortal bodies cannot die. Each person will then receive his judgment at the great white throne.

This one quote proves you know absolutely NOTHING about John's chronology. What did you do? Separate the book of Revelation by writing each verse on a small piece of paper, but all the pieces in a big barrel, stirring them up thoroughly, then draw them out one by one to determine John's chronology? You would be just about as accurate if you did it that way. Maybe by chance you would have got a couple of verses in the right order.

AXIOM on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE PROVEN WRONG.

Your theory therefore is immediately suspect and will certainly be proven wrong. John was not mixed up in his chronology. Neither was the Holy Spirit. John NUMBERED many things to show that He wrote things IN ORDER. They were numbered for people just like you that imagine you must rearrange. NO REARRANGING is necessary! God gave it to us in the exact order it will happen.

Please allow me to make a suggestion: Throw all your end time beliefs into file 13, and START OVER with no preconceptions. Form your theories by EXACTLY what is written and in the same order as written. You will be MILES closer to the truth.

The Book of Revelation portrays the same exact events in different ways.

The seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven chalices all prophesy the destruction of the Jews, their temple, and their city and all this was fulfilled during 67 A.D. through 70 A.D.

This is why the events prophesied in the Book of Revelation are not in strict chronological order.

All that is left of the Book of Revelation to be fulfilled is Revelation 19 and 20.

 

[iamlamad]

Ok so now you agree that the resurrection/rapture is one event.

Let's continue this discussion.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27

• farthest part of earth:

those who are alive and remain on earth are raptured and caught up together with the resurrected ones who will rise first.

• farthest part of heaven:

dead in Christ coming with Jesus from heaven to be resurrected

Again, the Olivet discourse shows that those who are gathered from heaven and those who are gathered from earth are gathered together in the clouds, with Jesus Christ at His Coming.

This is where Paul got the knowledge to write 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
JLB

That is one way to really stretch scripture to make it seem to fit a theory. I just disagree. Where to we get the "gathering" in 1 Thes. 4? I think it comes from the word "toGETHER." First the dead in Christ rise up into the air. Then we who are alive and remain are caught up together with them in the clouds. So we that are alive go TOGETHER with those who have just risen. Perhaps angels "gather" us but 1 thes. Does not tell us this. The dead resurrected and the alive changed go TOGETHER to meet Christ in the air. But before any of this, Paul tells us that Jesus brings with him the spirits (and souls) of those who have died in Christ.

If you will be honest with the scriptures, Paul does not back up to what happens in heaven before Jesus descends: HIS narrative picks up with Jesus bringing the spirits. Therefore it is a HUGE stretch to include any gathering in heaven. In my mind it is much more likely that this gathering in Matthew 24 is God gathering all of Israel back to Israel.

Another problem with your theory is that when Paul describes the TIMING of his rapture, it fits perfectly with the 6th seal, NOT chapter 11.

Yet another problem, you will STILL miss the marriage and supper. Do you realize, if you just change your theory to pretrib, then EVERYTHING FITS!

I disagree, what Paul wrote was a MYSTERY. He received it just the way He received his gospel: by revealed knowledge. The very fact that it was a mystery proves the olivet discourse does not speak to the rapture at all. Why should it? At that time, the Gentile church of which we are a part was a mystery hidden in God. That was Jesus, a prophet of the OLd Covenant, answered questions of Old Covenant men asking about the end of THEIR age. Why then would anyone even expect to find anything about the Gentile church in Matthew 24?

 

[iamlamad]

there are not a few verses showing this, here are some of them:

Matthew 5:5 "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.",

Daniel 7:11-12 "I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

the "fourth beast" is the (kingdom of) spiritual lawlessness/iniquity/wickedness, the remaining three "beasts" are the mental/intellectual activity, the economic activity, and the physical activity (including on earth) in this world - their satanic dominion will be taken away together with the abolition of the spiritual iniquity

Blessings

And here I am believing what Daniel wrote, that Beasts are KINGS. Go figure.

 

[ewq1938]

I am not talking about universal salvation. The people in hell will suffer forever with both their immortal bodies and their immortal souls/spirits intact. Neither body nor soul/spirit can be destroyed by the fires of hell.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. nkjv

​

No one in the lake of fire has any form of immortality. They are sent there to die and be destroyed.

 

[ewq1938]

Please review these five key points and let's then discuss the timing of the resurrection/rapture, as they are one event that occurs at His Coming.

Actually they are two events not one. Christ leaves heaven which begins the second coming, then the dead in heaven are resurrected and follow him, and then the living saints are changed and then raptured up to meet those that left heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

That link has inaccurate information. The pre-trib rapture idea came from people misunderstanding one of Paul's letters so he had to write a second letter to explain they misunderstood:


1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spirtually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night



So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen right away instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospes.



2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".

The Bible makes it clear that there is no PRE Tribulation rapture.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


G3952


παρουσία

parousia

par-oo-see'-ah

From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


I wonder why it took about 1800 years for a 15 year old girl to find, what the greatest Greek scholars never found? And then John Darby brought the 15 year old girl's "vision" to America.

It is indeed a remarkable story... some might say it is an unbelievable story...


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

.

 

[iamlamad]

This is apocalyptic fanciful language and is not meant to be literal. The people who were beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast simply means that these people remained faithful to God until they died. They kept/obeyed God's commandments until death.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. nkjv​

This is apocalyptic fanciful language and is not meant to be literal.

HA! Who said? Do we just take your word for this?" What is symbolic about "a thousand years?" It sounds literal. It fits the context being literal. Millions believe it is literal. It makes GOOD SENSE taken in a literal sense. Did you never read:

"If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense."

When people make the "thousand years" symbolic, they will end up with nonsense. It means a thousand years. What is so difficult to believe about that? A thousand years to God is like a day to us.

 

[ewq1938]

This is apocalyptic fanciful language and is not meant to be literal. The people who were beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast simply means that these people remained faithful to God until they died. They kept/obeyed God's commandments until death.

No, they died by being beheaded as it says. It is a very specific way to die. Christ was not "beheaded", he was crucified. Stephen was not beheaded, he was stoned to death. Those that practice Eisegesis need to change the text to insert their own beliefs and ideas. Rev 20 speaks of those who were beheaded during the tribulation for refusing the mark of the beast. That same beast was destroyed at the second coming shown in Rev 19 proving whoever these beheaded saints are, lived in the world just prior to the second coming which means their deaths and the trib are future events.

What also destroys the Amill interpretation of Rev 20, aside from their constant re-writing of the text, is that the first resurrection mentioned in Rev 20 is the bodily resurrection of those beheaded saints. It is called the first because it is the first of two mass bodily resurrection written in Rev 20. The second resurrection is "the rest of the dead" who happen to be all the unsaved from all time.

​

 

[JLB777]

Actually they are two events not one. Christ leaves heaven which begins the second coming, then the dead in heaven are resurrected and follow him, and then the living saints are changed and then raptured up to meet those that left heaven.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


This scripture shows:

The raptured ones and the resurrected ones are caught up together in the air and both groups are together with the Lord in the air as He comes from Heaven down to earth.


Please explain how the resurrected ones who rise first, and the raptured ones who are caught together with them, are somehow not all together in the same place at the same time, if this is two separate events, as you say?



JLB

 

[.Mikha'el.]

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[iamlamad]

That link has inaccurate information. The pre-trib rapture idea came from people misunderstanding one of Paul's letters so he had to write a second letter to explain they misunderstood:


1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spirtually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night



So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen right away instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospes.



2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".

The Bible makes it clear that there is no PRE Tribulation rapture.

You pulled those verses out of contest! The CONTEXT of 5:1 is the resurrection/rapture of chapter 4. We know from elsewhere that JESUS comes as a thief, which is WHY the Day of the Lord comes: Jesus' coming FOR His bride will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Then Paul explains that this "day of the Lord" that comes suddenly is the "sudden destruction" that catches the sinner unaware. Paul is giving us a paradigm: TWO groups of people alive and well on earth at a SUDDENLY - the dead in Christ rising - get two different results: those living in the light of the gospel get "salvation" or get raptured, while those living in darkness get "sudden destruction." What must people miss is that all this is triggered, first by His coming, then by the dead in Christ rising. The very moment that those alive and In Christ are rising up, is the very same moment that others are receiving "sudden destruction."

The truth then is that this sudden event of the dead in Christ rising will be sudden to all, for NO ONE knows the day or the hour He will come FOR His saints. While we get raptured out of the sudden destruction, those left behind must suffer the sudden destruction

Paul further describes this "sudden destruction" as the start of the WRATH of God. If we compare with Revelation, we see that Paul's rapture will come just before the 6th seal, which begins God's wrath..

The Bible makes it clear that the rapture is PRETRIB. The TRUTH then is, pretrib is right here in the bible. No one made anything up to come up with a pretrib rapture. This theory began shortly after Paul wrote 1 Thes. Chapter 4 tells us of the rapture, while chapter 5 tells us WHEN.

Paul is even MORE clear in His 2nd letter. The man of sin is being restrained, and cannot be manifested UNTIL the one doing the restraining is "taken out of the way." That "taking out of the way" is exactly what happens in 2 thes. 2:3a, so that the man of sin can be revealed as seen in 3b. OF COURSE it is the Bride of Christ that is "taken out of the way."

 

[ewq1938]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


This scripture shows:

The raptured ones and the resurrected ones are caught up together in the air and both groups are together with the Lord in the air as He comes from Heaven down to earth.


Please explain how the resurrected ones who rise first, and the raptured ones who are caught together with them, are somehow not all together in the same place at the same time, if this is two separate events, as you say?

First of all, the resurrected ones do not "rise" in the same sense as the rapture rises people up in the air.

There are three events that happen around the same time, possibly seconds apart.

1st. The dead in Christ are resurrected ie: to bodily life. 1Th 4:16, 1Co_15:52
2nd. The living saints on Earth are changed into immortal bodies. 1Co_15:52
3rd. The changed saints are physically and literally lifted up to the clouds called a Rapture. 1Th 4:17

Saying these three events are one event is not accurate.

 

[iamlamad]

First of all, the resurrected ones do not "rise" in the same sense as the rapture rises people up in the air.

There are three events that happen around the same time, possibly seconds apart.

1st. The dead in Christ are resurrected ie: to bodily life. 1Th 4:16, 1Co_15:52
2nd. The living saints on Earth are changed into immortal bodies. 1Co_15:52
3rd. The changed saints are physically and literally lifted up to the clouds called a Rapture. 1Th 4:17

Saying these three events are one event is not accurate.

2 1/2: those left behind experience the sudden destruction earthquake.

 

[iamlamad]

2 1/2: those left behind experience the sudden destruction earthquake.

And these events together are what is commonly called "the rapture." It will probably all happen in less than a second.

 

[BABerean2]

The eighth trumpet is perhaps the last trumpet since the seventh announces the judgment/wrath of God which will be coming upon the unbelieving Jews in 67 A.D. - 70 A.D.

How about showing this 8th trumpet in scripture.

.

 

[JLB777]

First of all, the resurrected ones do not "rise" in the same sense as the rapture rises people up in the air.

There are three events that happen around the same time, possibly seconds apart.

1st. The dead in Christ are resurrected ie: to bodily life. 1Th 4:16, 1Co_15:52
2nd. The living saints on Earth are changed into immortal bodies. 1Co_15:52
3rd. The changed saints are physically and literally lifted up to the clouds called a Rapture. 1Th 4:17

Saying these three events are one event is not accurate.

Nice try but 1 Thessalonians 4;17 is both the resurrected ones who rise first, then those who are alive and remain are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


You just can't explain away the fact that the resurrected ones and the raptured ones are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER, to meet the Lord in the air.


Now your only chance is to prove all this takes place before the tribulation.


There is no chance of separating the resurrection from the rapture, which is why it is referred to as the gathering.



JLB

 

[ewq1938]

Nice try but 1 Thessalonians 4;17 is both the resurrected ones who rise first, then those who are alive and remain are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.

Only one group is raptured. Only one group is resurrected. Both groups receive an immortal body.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


You just can't explain away the fact that the resurrected ones and the raptured ones are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER, to meet the Lord in the air.

It doesn't say that. The ones caught up together are the living saints. The dead that are brought back to life are in the clouds already because they came with Jesus from Heaven.

Now your only chance is to prove all this takes place before the tribulation.

None of this happens before the tribulation.

There is no chance of separating the resurrection from the rapture, which is why it is referred to as the gathering.

The resurrection happens before the rapture. They are two different events. The dead in Christ are not raptured, the living saints are not resurrected.

 

[iamlamad]

Nice try but 1 Thessalonians 4;17 is both the resurrected ones who rise first, then those who are alive and remain are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


You just can't explain away the fact that the resurrected ones and the raptured ones are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER, to meet the Lord in the air.


Now your only chance is to prove all this takes place before the tribulation.


There is no chance of separating the resurrection from the rapture, which is why it is referred to as the gathering.



JLB

Some of us KNOW this takes place before the 70th week. I guess you still don't know it. Paul knew it and wrote about it.