Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Bible2+]

Riberra quoted a website in post 3917:

In this Bible study we will thoroughly debunk the Rapture lie and explain not only its dubious origins, but also its cause and effect, and the extreme danger that such a false doctrine poses for God's children.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is indeed dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

[Bible2+]

iamlamad said in post 3922:

What we have today is exactly what the old leaders if Israel faced: they could see only ONE coming of their Messiah . . .

There was a contrast between the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's coming, with some of them showing him coming to be meekly crucified for our sins (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22), and others showing him literally descending from heaven to wage war and to physically reign on the earth (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4). But note that nothing in the Old or New Testament requires a future (to us), pre-tribulation coming of Christ versus only a post-tribulation coming of Christ. For all the as-yet-unfulfilled Old and New Testament prophecies regarding Christ's coming will be fulfilled at or sometime after his post-tribulation coming.

 

[Short Timer]

Why there is no mention that we are taken OUT of the Earth in the text ?The text say that we are caught up in the clouds in the air to meet Jesus....What will happen at this meeting ?

1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord] shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, (DIE) but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Only those with ears to hear Jesus will hear it in the Rapture,

The "Bridegroom" coming only for his "Bride", the church, and even then only those who still have those "Ears to hear" his voice,

Mt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

The others are left behind to be turned over to Satan/AC for the destruction of the flesh as "Chastisement" for closing those ears just as Israel had done.

The "Day of the Lord" all Righteous OT/Deceased/Rapture/trib martyred return with Jesus, and the unsaved stay dead,

nobody is resurrected from a grave, and the battle of Armageddon will be raging.

I think the first thing you need to figure out is who you're arguing with, "ME" and my words or "God" and his words.

Israel didn't know, and for the same "Identical reason" many don't today, pride of the flesh is "universal".

 

[BABerean2]

Only those with ears to hear Jesus will hear it in the Rapture,

The "Bridegroom" coming only for his "Bride", the church, and even then only those who still have those "Ears to hear" his voice,

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


The marriage occurs at the Second Coming of Christ, not 7 years before.
Those who defend John Darby's doctrine are arguing against what is plainly written in the Word of God.

.

 

[Short Timer]

The marriage occurs at the Second Coming of Christ, not 7 years before.
Those who defend John Darby's doctrine are arguing against what is plainly written in the Word of God.

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them (Jews) that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Mt 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, (Gentiles) both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.(only the Church bride)

Mt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Those arguing against Darby are also arguing against "God".

But with no "ears to hear" like Israel, they don't know who they are arguing against.

 

[BABerean2]

Those arguing against Darby are also arguing against "God".

All men are made of the same rotten flesh that I am made of.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26

http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)

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[iamlamad]

Why there is no mention that we are taken OUT of the Earth in the text ?The text say that we are caught up in the clouds in the air to meet Jesus....What will happen at this meeting ?

1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord] shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 14 happens.

 

[Short Timer]

All men are made of the same rotten flesh that I am made of.

Yes, but some men are willing to crucify that old rotten flesh and rise above the "wisdom of this world" to the "knowledge of God".

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26

http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)

.

Why is it you prefer to believe some man than have ears to hear what God himself has to say????

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Riberra]

John 14 happens.

Unto the Coming of the Lord at the Parousia when Jesus comes down from Heaven to establish His Kingdom on the Earth.
We will for ever be with Jesus here on the Earth to reign with Him

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[keras]

John 14 happens.

Is it really impossible for you to read John 14:1-4 for what it actually means?
The Father owns everything, the whole universe and as heaven is in a spiritual dimension, it is as much here as anywhere.
Heaven isn't mentioned in John 14, so the first interpretation of buildings should be physical houses. The prophets tell of this: Ezekiel 36:33-36, Amos 9:14, Isaiah 58:12, Jeremiah 31:27-28
The Lord's holy people will go to live in all of the holy land, this is what all the prophets say will happen. It is unscriptural and illogical to think of anything else.

 

[Bible2+]

Short Timer said in post 3945:

Those arguing against Darby are also arguing against "God".

Actually, no. For the Darby doctrine is mistaken because it teaches a man-invented form of dispensationalism, which sets up a mutual exclusiveness between the church and Israel, rather than teaching Biblical covenantalism (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15, Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Also, the Darby doctrine is mistaken because it teaches a man-invented, pre-tribulation rapture, and one into the 3rd heaven, rather than the Biblical, post-tribulation rapture into the sky (the 1st heaven) (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:17).

That is, note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Short Timer]

Unto the Coming of the Lord at the Parousia when Jesus comes down from Heaven to establish His Kingdom on the Earth.
We will for ever be with Jesus here on the Earth to reign with Him

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Why would this God who "Foreknows" everything that is going to happen continue with a plan of salvation whereby he foreknew many would perish and then turn around and lie by saying it's not his will that any should perish???

People who believe God predestine some people to hell make God out to be a liar, but most don't know that.

But here's the point, salvation is based on the free will of people to believe whatever, just as it's impossible for God to lie, it's also impossible for God to use his God power to make/force someone to love him without destroying love in the process.

Love can exist only as the freewill expression of the person, if that freewill is not there, it's not love.

If God is going to have a Kingdom where everyone there "loves" God, then everyone there will have to be tested to see if they have that love, including the angels, a third followed Satan.

And God can't be the God of his kingdom if he has people who disagree with whatever he says, those people won't be in that kingdom, as Jesus said, the kingdom is made up only of people as "Humble as a little child" who is willing to "LISTEN/LEARN" from "GOD'S" instructions.

But as you see by all these different doctrines a large portion of people haven't learn even that much about God, and don't know that the doctrines they are espousing today will bear "WITNESS" either for or against them having had "ears to hear" on Judgment day.

Mt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Everybody is free to preach/teach whatever today, but if it's not the "TRUTH" and not what the HG is teaching, it will be the "Evidence" against them that they won't listen to God and disagree with his doctrine,

and they won't be his "Eternal Kingdom" either.

And with the "Comforter/Holy Ghost" (of Jesus) sent to "lead/guide/teach", it's the "Voice of God" they reject, not man.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The "Spirit" will bear witness to the "Truth", regardless of who is speaking it, but without "ears" the carnal mind that can't understand spiritual things is all you're left with.

Just like Israel, today many have a "zeal for God" but not in "Righteousness", saying "lord lord" or "God God" won't get you into Heaven,

there's got to be some "Evidence" you'll "Listen" and let God be God and not disagree with him.

The doctrine we preach today will determine if we go to heaven or hell, it's a witness either for or against us.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[Bro.T]

Jesus's return will stop all attacks on Israel, Joel is describing the trib and the final battle of Armageddon.

So Jews have to be back in the land before the trib even starts, after Jesus returns Israel will clean up the battle field by burning the remains of weapons and setup marker over body parts so they can be disposed of.

Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.

14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

Don't see the purpose in trying to explain anything, my point was made, plus the scriptures is crystal clear. This conversation is over your head, don't think it for you right now.

 

[Bro.T]

You want to call "Un-believers" the "CHURCH"????
I guess you don't know that the people who came out of Egypt didn't get to enter the promise land because of "Un-belief" and wander in the wilderness for 40 years until all over 20 years of age had died.

Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

I didn't call anybody anything, but I agree with the Apostles Paul.

 

[BABerean2]

Why would this God who "Foreknows" everything that is going to happen continue with a plan of salvation whereby he foreknew many would perish and then turn around and lie by saying it's not his will that any should perish???

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. (ESV)

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
("so"= Gk "houto"= in this manner)

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
(from Jeremiah chapter 31)

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Holy Spirit inside of us)

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Heb_9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb_9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Heb_10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

He made a way for all to come to everlasting life, by sending His Son to die of our sins.
What more could He do?

We have a choice, to accept or reject His Son.

.

 

[Bro.T]

I stand by what I said. You are out of touch with the reality of the present day.

We all can say what we want, but the word of God suppose to be what you follow, if you believe, the Bible.

 

[Bro.T]

I am guessing you do not believe in dispensations. Am I right?

Let me answer this question by the mouth of Solomon in Ecclesiastes 1: 8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. 9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. For the most apart, from Genesis to Revelation, the Bible is saying the same thing. Bible speaks of only one way to get eternal salvation. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5). But God have an order a protocol, in which we must follow to understand his word. Most will not follow, nor listen. Jesus warned us that the road to salvation is straight and narrow and that only a few of us will find it. Many are traveling down the wrong road, which leads to destruction. This is because many of us have heard about salvation but few of us want to do what is necessary to get salvation (many are called but few are chosen).

 

[Meowzltov]

We all can say what we want, but the word of God suppose to be what you follow, if you believe, the Bible.

The problem with statements like this is that they assume that THEIR *interpretation* of the Bible is the only one.

 

[parousia70]

This continues to be one of the Best threads to lurk in, in quite a while.
:::grabs popcorn:::

 

[Riberra]

Why would this God who "Foreknows" everything that is going to happen continue with a plan of salvation whereby he foreknew many would perish and then turn around and lie by saying it's not his will that any should perish???

Everytime there is mention of SALVATION it means SALVATION of the SOUL to be resurrected (those who sleep/died in Christ ) unto the coming of Jesus , not about the flesh body to be taken out of the Earth before the great tribulation.

People who believe God predestine some people to hell make God out to be a liar, but most don't know that.

But here's the point, salvation is based on the free will of people to believe whatever, just as it's impossible for God to lie, it's also impossible for God to use his God power to make/force someone to love him without destroying love in the process.

Jesus Christ is God's plan of SALVATION, not believing in whatever you want....like believing that God's plan of Salvation is in the belief of the Pre-Tribulation rapture.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.
......
HIS PROMISE

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.