Why does the earth rotate?

[dad]

Right -- Mark 13:32. Utterly irrelevant regarding his Earthly birth, however.

Why?

Again, utterly irrelevant. If Jesus was who and what he claimed to be, then he could return at any time of his choosing regardless of the exact date or time of his Earthly birth or death... unless you're claiming that there's a very specific (down to the day, perhaps?) and preordained waiting period known to someone besides the Father.

There is of course a day of His return. There is a precise moment before that when He takes believers into the air to be with Him. No cosmic flukes or chance involved at all.

There is not. Mark 13:32 confirms this, and Matthew 24:36 repeats it (as Matthew often does regarding Mark)

Therefore, your claim is in error, and you, quite literally, don't have a clue.

Notice He says of THAT DAY? Man doesn't know, and even Jesus at THAT time limited Himself to knowing it. You stand corrected..something fierce.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Why?

Because Jesus' earthly birth and death is in no way connected to his return... were you under the impression that it was somehow?

There is of course a day of His return. There is a precise moment before that when He takes believers into the air to be with Him. No cosmic flukes or chance involved at all.

Which has nothing to do with his Earthly birth, life, or death... were you under the impression that it did?

Notice He says of THAT DAY? Man doesn't know, and even Jesus at THAT time limited Himself to knowing it. You stand corrected..something fierce.

It's going to take more than rambling gobbledygook to "correct" me. I suggest you try again.

Noting that I know the Bible better than you do, you might want to consider studying first.

 

[dad]

Because Jesus' earthly birth and death is in no way connected to his return... were you under the impression that it was somehow?

His birth and death was connected by an angel connecting them that came from the very throne of God in heaven. Gabriel gave the years till Messiah and told how He would be killed or cut off. Now God often works with certain holidays or dates. For example, the date Abraham got the covenant and the date Jesus died are claimed by some to likely be the same time of year. They also are in the exact same place! There might be some clues through numerology, festivals, or other methods that some folks on earth might have been able to determine that may have informed them the likely time of the return of Christ too closely. For example in Scripture, we see that time intervals are also given for the tribulation and when it starts and ends. We see certain days will need to be finished or completed. Other places tell us that when we see that transgression of desolation spoken by Daniel the prophets, there will be a certain time till another stage of the endtime period..etc etc. Like connecting dots. It seems to me that having the time of Christ's exact death being unknown, and therefore the exact time (working backward) to the decree to rebuild Jerusalem even being known...that this makes it very hard to know where we are at this time. Only after the AntiChrist is REVEALED and he sets up that darn ol abomination of desolation in the holy place...will people be able to start to pinpoint the exact timing of His return to a far greater degree.

But all this is too involved to talk about in a secular area of the forum.

Noting that I know the Bible better than you do, you might want to consider studying first.

Not sure if you do 'know the bible' better or not. However, my main effort is to believe what I do know of it.

 

[TLK Valentine]

His birth and death was connected by an angel connecting them that came from the very throne of God in heaven. Gabriel gave the years till Messiah and told how He would be killed or cut off.

But not when He would return. As the Bible clearly states, Gabriel didn't know.

Now God often works with certain holidays or dates. For example, the date Abraham got the covenant and the date Jesus died are claimed by some to likely be the same time of year.

So your claim is only true if they're right.

Are they?

They also are in the exact same place!

Israel. Any chance you could narrow it down?

There might be some clues through numerology, festivals, or other methods that some folks on earth might have been able to determine that may have informed them the likely time of the return of Christ too closely.

So prove they got it right before making your claims.


[Wuote]For example in Scripture, we see that time intervals are also given for the tribulation and when it starts and ends. We see certain days will need to be finished or completed. Other places tell us that when we see that transgression of desolation spoken by Daniel the prophets, there will be a certain time till another stage of the endtime period..etc etc.[/quote]

None of which offers any connection between Jesus' earthly life and the time of his return.

We're you under the impression that any of it did?

Like connecting dots. It seems to me that having the time of Christ's exact death being unknown, and therefore the exact time (working backward) to the decree to rebuild Jerusalem even being known...that this makes it very hard to know where we are at this time.

Except that knowing the exact time would, in spite of your rambling claims, offer no insight into the timing of an event which even Jesus, during his tenure on Earth, didn't know.

You remain under the impression that it would, but your "reasoning" remains vague gobbledygook.

Only after the AntiChrist is REVEALED and he sets up that darn ol abomination of desolation in the holy place...will people be able to start to pinpoint the exact timing of His return to a far greater degree.

Which has no bearing on the precise dates of Jesus' Earthly life. No divine mystery is necessary.

You claim one because it's the only way you can justify your own lack of knowledge.

But all this is too involved to talk about in a secular area of the forum.

Especially considering you are making this up as you go.

We're you under the impression you were at all convincing?

Not sure if you do 'know the bible' better or not. However, my main effort is to believe what I do know of it.

The less you know, the less effort you need to exert. That explains a lot.

 

[dad]

But not when He would return. As the Bible clearly states, Gabriel didn't know.

He knew when Messiah would come. Since then we have other clues also. Gabe also told us the final king would place the abomination of desolation. From that point we know the days. Now if we knew when Jesus died exactly, perhaps they might be able to figure out a little too much in the end time. They will know there is 3 and a half years, but there is still some mystery about the final phase of that period. In one place it talks of 1290 days and also about another little period after that.

So your claim is only true if they're right.

Are they?

The area was correct, and the parallel of Abraham giving his son was clear. The exact area

"
Question:
I was reading an article on your website titled "The Testing of Abraham's Faith" and had a couple of questions about it. The fourth paragraph says this:

The place chosen for the sacrifice was about 50 miles from Abraham's home. It took Abraham three days to reach the place. The journey gave Abraham three days to change his mind, but he did not relent. The place chosen was not arbitrary. It was a mountain called Moriah. Moriah is only mentioned in one other place in our Bibles -- II Chronicles 3:1. This is the place where God appeared to David on the threshing floor. Later, this was the same place where Solomon built the temple. And a long time later, it was on this same mountain that God's only Son was sacrificed outside the gates of the city of Jerusalem.

It says the following events took place on Mt. Moriah:

• Abraham offered Isaac
• God appeared to David on the threshing floor
• Solomon built the temple on this site
• Jesus was sacrificed on this site"

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2009/04-02a.html

Now, another aside here of some interest to me is that the name of Golgotha according to some folks meant the place of the skull. They suggest that refers to the skull of Adam. (?) If so, that could indicate that this area was also close to the area the garden of Eden was?! It could be that Jesus walked with Adam in the same area where Abraham sacrificed, and Jesus was killed. Another possibility (my opinion actually) is that Noah landed not too far away. Probably no more about the distance a dove flies in a few days, maybe less! With the different state past and rapid continent separation after the flood era, we should remember that the land masses where the mountains of Aararat were, and Israel now is may have been very close or touching!?

But I digress.

Except that knowing the exact time would, in spite of your rambling claims, offer no insight into the timing of an event which even Jesus, during his tenure on Earth, didn't know.

They didn't know. But God knew we would exist one day. He does stuff for more than one generation. But I am not sure why you are obsessing on some possibility here? I simply said MAYBE God allowed some mystery so that men could not be too precise in dates...especially in the end times to come.

Which has no bearing on the precise dates of Jesus' Earthly life. No divine mystery is necessary.

If we knew when He died we would know when He was born probably. Or at least a lot closer than we now know for sure.

The less you know, the less effort you need to exert. That explains a lot.

The less you know, the more effort you need to exert pretending you do. That explains a lot.

 

[TLK Valentine]

He knew when Messiah would come.

The Coming of the Messiah was a central tenet in Jewish theology for centuries. How can you possibly even pretend this is meaningful?

The area was correct, and the parallel of Abraham giving his son was clear. The exact area

So because the literature shows parallels, you assume that they occurred in the exact same spot.

I was reading an article on your website titled "The Testing of Abraham's Faith" and had a couple of questions about it. The fourth paragraph says this:

The place chosen for the sacrifice was about 50 miles from Abraham's home. It took Abraham three days to reach the place. The journey gave Abraham three days to change his mind, but he did not relent. The place chosen was not arbitrary. It was a mountain called Moriah. Moriah is only mentioned in one other place in our Bibles -- II Chronicles 3:1. This is the place where God appeared to David on the threshing floor. Later, this was the same place where Solomon built the temple. And a long time later, it was on this same mountain that God's only Son was sacrificed outside the gates of the city of Jerusalem.

It says the following events took place on Mt. Moriah:

• Abraham offered Isaac
• God appeared to David on the threshing floor
• Solomon built the temple on this site
• Jesus was sacrificed on this site"

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2009/04-02a.html

That would make a lot more sense if Jesus was executed at the Temple. He was not.

Now, another aside here of some interest to me is that the name of Golgotha according to some folks meant the place of the skull. They suggest that refers to the skull of Adam. (?)

They're guessing. Why do you choose to believe them?

If so, that could indicate that this area was also close to the area the garden of Eden was?! It could be that Jesus walked with Adam in the same area where Abraham sacrificed, and Jesus was killed. Another possibility (my opinion actually) is that Noah landed not too far away. Probably no more about the distance a dove flies in a few days, maybe less! With the different state past and rapid continent separation after the flood era, we should remember that the land masses where the mountains of Aararat were, and Israel now is may have been very close or touching!?

More baseless assertions. Less gobbledygook, more facts, please.

They didn't know. But God knew we would exist one day. He does stuff for more than one generation. But I am not sure why you are obsessing on some possibility here? I simply said MAYBE God allowed some mystery so that men could not be too precise in dates...especially in the end times to come.

But God does nothing without a reason -- and you baselessly speculated that the reason was that there was some sort of connection between the dates of Jesus' earthly life and the time of his return.

Now you're desperately trying to get me to forget that assertion of yours. No dice.

If we knew when He died we would know when He was born probably. Or at least a lot closer than we now know for sure.

If we knew his age.... do we?

The less you know, the more effort you need to exert pretending you do. That explains a lot.

Took the words out of my mouth, dad...

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

No. I don't. The Scriptures clearly say Jesus created all things, and the world was made by Him.

I only rule out beliefs pushed on evidences purposely by so called science, and even some of it's disciples who also claim to be of the christian persuasion.

But you assert that you do this because you might as well, and you ignore all evidence and all alignment of evidence with theory. Therefore, your own assertions of alignment of evidence with beliefs are equally dismissable. In particular, your notion of trusting the scriptures is based on nothing, not evidence, not reason; those are the very things you say we cannot use.

 

[Kylie]

Saying something looks light years away is a misnomer. In other words they are very far away.

So you don't know how the science that we use to make this determination works.

It does seem true that there are elements in the stars that we are familiar with and can detect. What else also may or not be there is another issue.

If the elements that we know are there, then it means that the laws of nature that we know are there. After all, how can there be helium in those stars if the laws of nature that allow for the formation of atoms and the bonding of nuclei and electrons aren't in effect? If the laws were different, we could never see these things, and you have just admitted that we do!

It is also true that light carries such information and that light here in our time and space does carry some information.

And it must also be that light carries information if it is coming from a time and space where these stars are.

It is reasonable to conclude that in the stars there are elements like some here on earth. The light that carries that info has to exist here to be seen. Therefore it could be possible that what we are seeing may be more representative of how light can exist (and info in it) HERE. But in either case, we do not know what else may also exist. In other words we are seeing stars that are an unknown size and distance and which exist in time (or no time) that we have no knowledge of at all, and man has assumed that the info and light we see only here represents a same state universe!

Why would something like this happen? Does some magical force come from these stars, reach a certain point where the laws of nature change and then this magical force says, "Oh, I better turn into something humans can understand, I guess I'll change into light with these certain spectrum absorption lines"?

I am saying science doesn't know. I am also saying that the bible indicates a far different nature to the universe than man has cooked up and assumes.

Evil spirits can cause health issues. They can cause fear which is detrimental so health. They can influence people to do hurtful and dangerous things, that can affect health...like go to war...etc etc. Of course some people are given over to them also.

Um, yeah. Evil spirits. COuldn't possibly be stress, or fear or anything like that could it? No, evil spirits are a much more reasonable conclusion...

The world in the past was quite visible.

Except we have no evidence for it. We only have old stories.

So will the new world in the future be very real and seen.

When it happens, let me know, m'kay?

As far as the universe now, that is not known, except for the near earth zone. Science is 'in the zone'. In the box. In the fishbowl. Tell me what it would look like in the far universe if there WERE NO TIME..or no time as we know it here?? Time is invisible. We see things here and only here, and interpret them accordingly.

If there were no time in the distant parts of the universe, then there could be no change. And we wouldn't be able to see things like this:

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/jaso...nova.html?referrer=https://www.google.com.au/

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130905.html

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=crab neula expanding

No problem, just post where you thought you were right.

We're talking about your posts here, not mine. You show me a post in which you proved me wrong.

The message she could get saved was from modern technology actually.

So not from God?

So did almost everyone. Try some bible new testament comics.

Comics. REALLY?

 

[Kylie]

Exactly.

So you admit that you can't get the truth reliably if you just guess.

Maybe not, maybe so. But who cares? If we celebrate it on a certain day, then that'll do er.

And now you don't care if you get the truth or not?

The first item in your first link had to do with how they date it. An eclipse of the moon. That is the same thing that confuses the time of the death of Christ on the cross. The King of the universe, and creator of the world died on that tree. It is my opinion that time itself may have been affected. If that were the case that would affect when an eclipse happened in relation to time after it happened But I digress..

Time itself changes.

Ya huh.

 

[dad]

The Coming of the Messiah was a central tenet in Jewish theology for centuries. How can you possibly even pretend this is meaningful?

The devout ones should have known the time was here for His arrival. In fact they did. The Jews in general expected a king Messiah. They did not easily accept that He was to first come as a Lamb.

So because the literature shows parallels, you assume that they occurred in the exact same spot.

Because God worked that way, and will return there also, and rule from there...etc..we can combine events in history such as where Abraham sacrificed, and arrive at a logical reasoned conclusion that that area was central in the relationship of God to man.

That would make a lot more sense if Jesus was executed at the Temple. He was not.

Who says Abraham sacrificed where the temple was to be?

But God does nothing without a reason -- and you baselessly speculated that the reason was that there was some sort of connection between the dates of Jesus' earthly life and the time of his return.

Not at all. I suggest that if we knew the exact time and date, that folks in the end time might be able to guess the return date too closely.

If we knew his age.... do we?

Knowing His age at death does not tell us when that was.

 

[dad]

But you assert that you do this because you might as well, and you ignore all evidence and all alignment of evidence with theory.

You ignore the fact that you have no such thing, never will, and never did!

In particular, your notion of trusting the scriptures is based on nothing, not evidence, not reason; those are the very things you say we cannot use.

Your notion that my notion is based on nothing is based on nothing.

 

[dad]

So you don't know how the science that we use to make this determination works.

Yes I know it is belief only. They assume time exists as we know it out there.

If the elements that we know are there, then it means that the laws of nature that we know are there.

Not at all. If a star had some hydrogen that does NOT mean the laws are the same! Who says there is no hydrogen in heaven? There is a river of water of life. There will be a fountain flowing from Jerusalem. Etc etc.

After all, how can there be helium in those stars if the laws of nature that allow for the formation of atoms and the bonding of nuclei and electrons aren't in effect?

Who says that the bond is the same? We only see that info in the light here.

And it must also be that light carries information if it is coming from a time and space where these stars are.

Not really. It carries it HERE. We process the info here. We don't know that the light and info in the light represents the same laws there. Even if we did have the same laws, and I doubt that, you also need space and time to be the same.

Why would something like this happen? Does some magical force come from these stars, reach a certain point where the laws of nature change and then this magical force says, "Oh, I better turn into something humans can understand, I guess I'll change into light with these certain spectrum absorption lines"?

It can only exist here a certain way. If New Jerusalem was over the earth and we could shoot a sound wave through it, perhaps the sort of seismic wave that will not go through liquids also would not go through it?! When spiritual material is involved and spiritual realities and laws....we can't expect business as usual. Now let's stick New Jerusalem as far away as a star. We might see hydrogen and helium in the light coming from there. That doesn't mean that that city is under our laws!

Um, yeah. Evil spirits. COuldn't possibly be stress, or fear or anything like that could it? No, evil spirits are a much more reasonable conclusion...

Spirits are as real as people. They are not stress, or imagination, or anything else but real individuals that have no physical body.

If there were no time in the distant parts of the universe, then there could be no change. And we wouldn't be able to see things like this:

Actually to know how fast it expands we need to know how big, therefore how far away it is. We also need to know time exists, or the way we think of time in the expanding doesn't apply there!

We're talking about your posts here, not mine. You show me a post in which you proved me wrong.

THIS POST! Your claims about spirits and nebulae and expansion and etc etc are all unsupportable.

Comics. REALLY?

Yes. Of course. That works for many parents. Pictures and the story simply illustrated and told.

 

[dad]

So you admit that you can't get the truth reliably if you just guess.
And now you don't care if you get the truth or not?

I do not care what day Jesus was born. I would like to know, but it is not crucial.

Time itself changes.

Ya huh.

I can see that time itself may have been affected at the time Jesus died. That is a little hard to get the head around, I know. But it would explain why they can't seem to pinpoint the eclipse, and the exact times for the life of Christ. It seems to make sense that the central point of time on earth...the death of Christ for our sins...that time was affected. Even the calendar starts there.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Your notion that my notion is based on nothing is based on nothing.

Its based on the content of your posts.

 

[dad]

Its based on the content of your posts.

Your notion of them.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Its based on the content of your posts.

Like he said -- "nothing."

 

[dad]

Like he said -- "nothing."

Doubt in God's word is less than nothing. The igno guesses of so called science about creation are less than nothing. The prognosticators of phishbowl science preach that flatworms share common kin with them. Such buffoonery warrants a PHD in their minds. Puffy egomaniacs that preach death.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Doubt in God's word is less than nothing. The igno guesses of so called science about creation are less than nothing. The prognosticators of phishbowl science preach that flatworms share common kin with them. Such buffoonery warrants a PHD in their minds. Puffy egomaniacs that preach death.

Meanwhile, you preach nothing.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Doubt in God's word is less than nothing. The igno guesses of so called science about creation are less than nothing. The prognosticators of phishbowl science preach that flatworms share common kin with them. Such buffoonery warrants a PHD in their minds. Puffy egomaniacs that preach death.

Nothing but assertion; no logic, no evidence, mere assertion.

 

[Kylie]

Yes I know it is belief only. They assume time exists as we know it out there.

So that's a no, you don't know how science works.

Not at all. If a star had some hydrogen that does NOT mean the laws are the same! Who says there is no hydrogen in heaven? There is a river of water of life. There will be a fountain flowing from Jerusalem. Etc etc.

How can there be hydrogen if the laws are different?

Who says that the bond is the same? We only see that info in the light here.

If the bond is different, why doesn't it look different?

Or does the transition between the different-law part of the universe and the same-law part of the universe magically change the way things look?

Not really. It carries it HERE. We process the info here. We don't know that the light and info in the light represents the same laws there. Even if we did have the same laws, and I doubt that, you also need space and time to be the same.

Again, if it is different, why doesn't it look different?

It can only exist here a certain way. If New Jerusalem was over the earth and we could shoot a sound wave through it, perhaps the sort of seismic wave that will not go through liquids also would not go through it?! When spiritual material is involved and spiritual realities and laws....we can't expect business as usual. Now let's stick New Jerusalem as far away as a star. We might see hydrogen and helium in the light coming from there. That doesn't mean that that city is under our laws!

So many assumptions on your part. Such a shame that you have nothing from reality to back you up.

Spirits are as real as people. They are not stress, or imagination, or anything else but real individuals that have no physical body.

Evidence please.

Evidence from reality, that is. Quoting passages from an old book isn't going to cut it.

Actually to know how fast it expands we need to know how big, therefore how far away it is. We also need to know time exists, or the way we think of time in the expanding doesn't apply there!

The rate is irrelevant. That fact we can see it changing proves time exists there.

THIS POST! Your claims about spirits and nebulae and expansion and etc etc are all unsupportable.

No, you have not showed a thing. You have never been able to show that science is wrong.

Yes. Of course. That works for many parents. Pictures and the story simply illustrated and told.

Whatever works for you...