Both Saturday and Sunday Sabbath are Wrong

[Acts24Fourteen]

If you look at the map in the Kosher travel guide, you will see there is no clear direction to the actual Sabbath date in an area from eastern Asia all the way to Alaska. There are several different opinions given in the Kosher Travel Guide as to which one is the actual Sabbath date.

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline2.htm

Kosher is not [necessarily] scriptural, it is talmudic [R. said this, R. said that]/halachic. Opinion is not what is needful, but rather, "Thus saith the LORD". Therefore, scripture is needful. I gave that scriptural evidence. Also, the Jews [in general] cannot properly keep the Sabbath anyway, in any location, since the 7th Day is the Sabbath of the LORD [Jesus]. If they knowingly refuse Jesus, what good is it to do what they do?

You presently do not seem to be interested in keeping the Sabbath Holy upon any means of chronological keeping, but simply seem to be desirous to throw out into the forum as much disinformation into the thread, without verification, to attempt to bring disrepute upon the Sabbath of the LORD. I will advise you now to cease from it, as it cannot go well for anyone who does that. It will come back upon their own head. In love, I share with you. Also, I am still waiting for the first quotation in 'evidence' for the so-called lunar sabbaths [the 'Irenaeus' David Clark] to be publically retracted.

Those who promote the so-called lunar sabbath theory, are those that are actually bringing others into harmony with the Roman Sunday [even for a short time], for in the so-called lunarian cycles, there are certain months, in any given year, in which their so-called 'lunar sabbath' lands upon what the whole world [generally] identifies as Sunday. They will receive the mark of the Beast.

You see, satan does not care whether one honours the "sun" [Sunday] or the "moon" [so-called lunarian sabbaths], or "sunday" or "friday" [muslim], or ignore all of them together [atheist, etc], thus reaching the same end of desecrating the Holy Sabbath and ignoring the authority of the God [Jesus] of it, so long as it is not the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD [Jesus] thy God, for he would rather any worship the creation over their Creator.

Being a retired science teacher with an interest in astronomy, I have the basic knowledge needed to understand the relationship between the motions of the sun, moon, and earth in determining time of day, etc.

Excellent, then see my previous links [for instance - http://www.christianforums.com/thre...w-edness-i-tell-you-mow-edness.7853001/page-4 ], demonstrating from numerous sources that the moon cycles are in no way in connection to the 7 Day cycle from Genesis. It is two differing ways of chronological keeping of time. One for the week, the other for the month. Then also please acknowledge what I have stated so far in connection to the unchanging 7th Day, in its cycle, in either position of the dayline.

 

[BABerean2]

Then also please acknowledge what I have stated so far in connection to the unchanging 7th Day, in its cycle, in either position of the dayline.

Which dayline is the question?

Is it the Jerusalem Longitude Line?
or...

Is it the CHAZON ISH line that skirts eastern Asia and goes through Australia?
or...

Is it the CIVIL INTERNATIONAL DATELINE that is not a straight line and passes to the east of New Zealand?
or...

Is it the MID-PACIFIC POSKIM LINE that is a straight line just to the east of the International
or...

Is it the RAV TUKATZINSKY LINE that passes through Alaska?

All of these are based on the conventions of man and show they cannot be connected to the unchanging 7th Day, in it's cycle, from God.

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline2.htm

Look at the map in the link above to see the problem.

This proves the observance of Sabbath must either be tied to a local event in Jerusalem or the appearance of a particular moon phase as a local event, which can occur in some locations. However, there can also be complications that come into effect at higher latitudes.

Above the Arctic Circle there are times when there is no sunset or sunrise during some seasons of the year.

All of this shows that keeping Sabbath is not as simple as some claim.
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[Acts24Fourteen]

Which dayline is the question?

Is it the Jerusalem Longitude ... the CHAZON ISH ... IDL ... POSKIM LINE ... RAV TUKATZINSKY LINE ...?

All of these are based on the conventions of man and show they cannot be connected to the unchanging 7th Day, in it's cycle, from God.

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline2.htm

Look at the map in the link above to see the problem.

Your problem is of your own making, and even one of rabbinism [perhaps you need to consult your rav], and is none of those who follow after Jesus. The excuses proffered by yourself, are lame, and to disobey God [John 14:15; Exodus 20:6], is faithlessness. Three are come about through rabbinism. The IDL is not of rabbinic origin as the other three. They are not equal. Furthermore, Jerusalem on earth is not the home of the Christian, the New Jerusalem above is.

What our Holy God commands, all may obey by their faith in God, for in each Holy Commandment of the Heavenly Father, is the promise and strength of Holy God Himself.

Why would a Christian observe anything concocted through the rabbinical talmudic processes [R. said this, and R. said that... ie., "chazon ish", "poskim", "rav tukatzinsky", rather than, "thus saith the LORD"?

God declares, that it is He that "... removeth kings, and setteth up kings..." [Daniel 2:21]; "... that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will ..." [Daniel 4:17,25,32], and all are to obey, in the LORD, and as unto the LORD those things which are ordained of God:

Romans 13:1 - Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Romans 13:2 - Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Romans 13:3 - For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Romans 13:4 - For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 13:5 - Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

1 Peter 2:13 - Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

1 Peter 2:14 - Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

1 Peter 2:15 - For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

1 Peter 2:16 - As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

1 Peter 2:17 - Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.​

The legitimately recognized governments under Heaven [kingdoms and their kings/rules/governors] in those locations abide by the IDL, in their respective locations, determining to be on side or the other as they see fit, through vote, or decision by proper council of the elected person, in the allowance of God, to serve the purposes of men, in the daily activity. The Holy 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD [Jesus] thy God is not changed, altered, removed, but stands ever steadfast even for ever and ever.

A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ, God, the only true "Rabbi", the "Teacher":

Matthew 23:8 - But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.​

etc.​

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

This proves the observance of Sabbath must either be tied to a local event in Jerusalem or the appearance of a particular moon phase as a local event, which can occur in some locations. However, there can also be complications that come into effect at higher latitudes.

Above the Arctic Circle there are times when there is no sunset or sunrise during some seasons of the year.

Proven? Far, far from it.

It was demonstrated in the previous material and links, it is not linked to local earthly Jerusalem, as the Sabbath is found to originate in Genesis 2:1-3 even as per Exodus 20:8-11. Jerusalem on earth did not yet even exist.

The 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD [not judean] is also not found to be rooted in the origin of the moon [created on the 4th day], but in the Light of the Glory of God Himself [Jesus Christ], from the very First day, per 2 Corinthians 4:4-6 and many other texts.

The complications only come to those who look to disobey God and refuse His Commandment. They are out of the way. They are at enmity with God and His Law. They refuse the Holy Commandment delivered unto them.

Higher latitudes? Arctic circle? Do you live there? Yes/No. Surprised you did not attempt further distraction with mention of the ISS. Now, if you think that the arctic circle posses any problem, let us turn to the word of God, but before so doing, know that those which seek a 'lunar solution', have similar things to deal with in those regions, as there are days in which the moon cannot be seen above the horizon "(No Moon phenomena occur on this day.)", for instance in 2009, from January 19-25, in Barrow Alaska, and etc:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/rstt/onedaytable?ID=AA&year=2009&month=1&day=19&state=AK&place=Barrow

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/rstt/onedaytable?ID=AA&year=2009&month=1&day=20&state=AK&place=Barrow

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/rstt/onedaytable?ID=AA&year=2009&month=1&day=21&state=AK&place=Barrow

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/rstt/onedaytable?ID=AA&year=2009&month=1&day=22&state=AK&place=Barrow

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/rstt/onedaytable?ID=AA&year=2009&month=1&day=23&state=AK&place=Barrow

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/rstt/onedaytable?ID=AA&year=2009&month=1&day=24&state=AK&place=Barrow

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/rstt/onedaytable?ID=AA&year=2009&month=1&day=25&state=AK&place=Barrow​

However, do notice, that there is still "civil time" kept, by various chronological methods, whether written, water clocks, or other time-pieces kept [battery, digital, internet], which again is proper ["'civil", local government time which determines 'sunset' and 'sunrise' through various calculatory methods, of the suns highest/lowest rising/setting positions, or brightest [light/day]/darkest [night] portions etc] under the allowance of God under those extreme circumstances.

Others take notice of this:

"The Moon cannot be seen at the moment of New Moon - as printed on the calendar for instance - it's much too near the Sun (as seen from Earth - it's not actually nearby the Sun, but it's in almost the same direction from Earth). You might see it the following evening, but the crescent will still be so thin and in the glare of the Sun that it usually can't be spotted unless you're in a really ideal location. If you're in the tropics, or if it's springtime in your hemisphere, then the new crescent will be relatively high in the sky, and easier to see. In other places - even if the sky is clear of clouds - it can be hard to spot the new crescent Moon, as it can be very low in the sky and set very soon after the Sun. It's fun to try to spot it though! Usually you won't be able to see it until two or three days after the New Moon time. It helps to have a good prediction of exactly where it should be - some planetarium-type software can be helpful. The first actual sighting of the new crescent marks the beginning of a new calendar month for Moslem people who follow their traditional lunar-based calendar." - http://www.moonchart.net/astronomy/FAQ​

All of this shows that keeping Sabbath is not as simple as some claim.

Only for the disobedient and ignorant of God's word, ignoring the evidence of Scripture, History and Science.

Simplicity, even a child may do [Psalms 40:8]:

Proverbs 20:11 - Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work [be] pure, and whether [it be] right.

Proverbs 22:6 - Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Deuteronomy 30:2 - And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;​

Yet, we know by scripture there are two kinds of children, those of their Father in Heaven, and those children of disobedience and of their father on earth.

Jesus Christ, honours His Father in Heaven, and keeps His Commandments. Thus those that are His, He being with the always, He instructs in the Way.

 

[BABerean2]

Yet, we know by scripture there are two kinds of children, those of their Father in Heaven, and those children of disobedience and of their father on earth.

In other words... a trapper above the Arctic Circle with a broken watch would be a follower of Satan if he does not properly keep the Sabbath day, according to you.

He could have been a man previously washed by the Blood of the Messiah, but now he is condemned to hell by a broken watch...



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[Acts24Fourteen]

In other words... a trapper above the Arctic Circle with a broken watch would be a follower of Satan if he does not properly keep the Sabbath day, according to you.

He could have been a man previously washed by the Blood of the Messiah, but now he is condemned to hell by a broken watch...

Do not pretend even for a moment to care for the arctic person, or even to keep God's 4th Commandment, the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God.

Your so-called 'lunarian thread' is a falsehood, a pretense, a misdirection, since you do not believe a word of anything you yourself have posted in 'defense' of such erroneous theology, per your other thread comments, citing "Dale Ratzlaff" [exSDA, not a lunarian], "CATV" [Wessels, errors, so-called evangelical, not a lunarian], and botched covenant theology, as you write, speaking of the Ten Commandments, "... the covenant of bondage that Paul said we are to cast out in Galatians chapter 4." [non lunarian], and none of which has anything to do with various rabbis and their halachic/talmudic regulations.

Amazing, is the blindness that is upon you, and the deafness that stops your ears, and the hardness of the heart, that you are able to call God's Ten Commandments "bondage", of which Paul never did.

I am done with this thread, and your false pretense.

 

[BABerean2]

Amazing, is the blindness that is upon you, and the deafness that stops your ears, and the hardness of the heart, that you are able to call God's Ten Commandments "bondage", of which Paul never did.

I am done with this thread, and your false pretense.

It took you a while, but you finally turned the Blood-bought Grace of the Messiah into a covenant of death, based on works through proper Sabbath observance.

I am not bitter at all.

However, I long ago abandoned the doctrines of men and women who like me who were made of rotten flesh.

One of the tests of any doctrine is the necessity to make a personal attack on those who dare to question our interpretation of scripture.

I have very thick skin.

I love you and have no hard feelings toward you.



1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

...................................................

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.



Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

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[BobRyan]

Almost all of the volumes of books arguing Sunday vs. Saturday Sabbath fail to understand that the Israelites used a calendar using a combination of the lunar and solar cycle.

Turns out that the OP is wrong.

The Jews never "reset the weekly cycle" based on the moon as even Jewish scholars admit.

Thus Judaism, Christianity, and even Islam all agree on the "Fixed weekly cycle" as do all calendars and even astronomical sciences - the weekly cycle is proven to have not changed from the time of Rome to this day - and many centuries before. Because the ancients record the day of the year - the day of the week - and the astronomical event ... which can be calculated exactly.

Thus the OP is simply in error.

 

[BABerean2]

Turns out that the OP is wrong.

The Jews never "reset the weekly cycle" based on the moon as even Jewish scholars admit.

Thus Judaism, Christianity, and even Islam all agree on the "Fixed weekly cycle" as do all calendars and even astronomical sciences - the weekly cycle is proven to have not changed from the time of Rome to this day - and many centuries before. Because the ancients record the day of the year - the day of the week - and the astronomical event ... which can be calculated exactly.

Thus the OP is simply in error.

We know the Roman calendar was changed a number of times, before the Julian calendar was devised.

At one time the Romans used a week of 8 days.

The Romans also used calendars at least partially based on the moon in the past.

We also know some of the Israelite feasts were based on the New Moon cycles.

The Israelites had to make corrections to their calendar periodically to make up for the difference between their year and the solar cycle of 365 1/4 days.

What you are claiming does not match up to the calendars from ancient times, such as the one in the link below.

http://www.crystalinks.com/romecalendar.html

This next link shows the use of the Lunar cycles by the Israelites.

http://www.crivoice.org/calendar.html

.

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[BobRyan]

We know the Roman calendar was changed a number of times, before the Julian calendar was devised.

The Jew's 7 day week was never changed and they had this long before the Roman empire even existed.

However Babylon did use a lunar calendar to re-set the week and shorten it at the end when needed.

Babylonians[year needed] celebrated a holy day every seven days, starting from the new moon, then the first visible crescent of the Moon, but adjusted the number of days of the final "week" in each month so that months would continue to commence on the new moon.[citation needed]

Counting from the new moon, the Babylonians celebrated the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th as "holy-days", also called "evil days" (meaning "unsuitable" for prohibited activities). On these days, officials were prohibited from various activities and common men were forbidden to "make a wish", and at least the 28th was known as a "rest-day".[16] On each of them, offerings were made to a different god and goddess.

But Christians and Jews were never limited to Babylonian religion. In fact the Jews predate their Babylonian captivity.

 

[BobRyan]

b

This next link shows the use of the Lunar cycles by the Israelites.

http://www.crivoice.org/calendar.html
.

You are making my point again with that link - that link says nothing about the 7 day week changing based on a lunar cycle. Rather it says that the months and the years were determined by the lunar cycle -- not the 7 day week.

The point remains.

 

[BABerean2]

The Jew's 7 day week was never changed and they had this long before the Roman empire even existed.

However Babylon did use a lunar calendar to re-set the week and shorten it at the end when needed.

The Israelites were using the moon to determine some feasts long before the Babylonian exile.

"The system of keeping time in the Old Testament was based on the cycles of the moon rather than a solar calendar like we use today. In fact, the Hebrew term for "month," chodesh, means "new [moon]," referring to the new moon that began the month. The lunar cycle played a significant role in the cultural and religious life in ancient Israel so that time could be counted by the cycles of the moon (Ex. 19:1). The New Moon was a festival day, observed by burnt offering and sacrifices as well as banquets (Num 29:6, 1 Sam 20:5, 1 Chron 23:31). The New Moon festival was often listed along with Sabbath as an important religious observance (2 Kings 4:23, Ezek 45:17). Like Sabbath and other rituals, it also came to symbolize empty and self-centered religion when not accompanied by faithfulness to God in other areas (Isa. 1:14, Amos 8:5). Likewise, the middle of the month or the Full Moon was an important marker of the passing of time. Two of Israel’s most important festivals fell in mid-month (Passover, Tabernacles; cf. Psa 81:3)."
http://www.crivoice.org/calendar.html


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

 

[BobRyan]

The Israelites were using the moon to determine some feasts long before the Babylonian exile.

Annual events are not the point of discussion - the point of debate is the 7 day week and once again you make my case - coming up with nothing that says they were editing/shortening/lengthening the 7 day week to fit any annual or monthly cycle/event/calendar.

The point remains.

 

[BABerean2]

Annual events are not the point of discussion - the point of debate is the 7 day week and once again you make my case - coming up with nothing that says they were editing/shortening/lengthening the 7 day week to fit any annual or monthly cycle/event/calendar.

The point remains.

Your original claim was that ancient civilizations of the middle east had an unchanging calendar since the time of the Roman empire.

When you were shown a copy of an ancient Roman calendar with an 8 day week, you still stick to the original claim and now say it means nothing.

The modern Jewish calendar did not come into being until about 300 years after the time of Christ, and is proven by this article written by a Bible scholar.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d760901.htm


The modern Jewish calendar does not trace it's roots back to the time of Moses or to the Great Disappointment of Oct. 22, 1844. The article above should "Shut the Door" on the claim that the calendar has not changed.

 

[BobRyan]

Your original claim was that ancient civilizations of the middle east had an unchanging calendar since the time of the Roman empire.

My original claim was this

The Jews did - and still do - use the same 7 day cycle that we do.

All Christians who look for the first day of the week - as sunday are admitting that the seventh day of the week is still Saturday just as all Jews also admit.

And there is zero Bible support for changing the 7th day of the week to some other day - based on the lunar cycle.

When you were shown a copy of an ancient Roman calendar with an 8 day week, you still stick to the original claim and now say it means nothing.

Because my claim was about the Jews and also that modern science knows what day of the week is being referenced when reading an ancient document saying that this or that lunar or solar eclipse happened on week-day-x in the year-y.

The Jews were not changing their 7 day cycle each time the pagan Roman empire came up with a "market calendar"

The modern Jewish calendar did not come into being until about 300 years after the time of Christ, and is proven by this article written by a Bible scholar.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d760901.htm

Which again - is not a statement about the days of the week. No change and even our own Julian to Gregorian Calendar changes - still "no change" to the weekly cycle.

The 1844 documents have nothing at all to do with trying to "figure out which day is the 7th day of the week".

 

[SAAN]

Why do so many have a problem and a science of figuring out when the 7th day of the week is, but can figure out the first day of the week in their sleep.

The only real debate is when the Sabbath was to be observed:
Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. <-24 full hours
Saturday sunrise to Saturday sunset. <- the actual day light time of the Sabbath, since God never really mentioned anything about the evening/night of the 7th day

 

[Treasurer]

I looked on the Israeli New Moon Society web site; from what I could tell there isn't a question about which day the Sabbath falls on. What has been being followed is the sighting for the new moon to know when the Sabbath Feast Days occur.

I racked my brain trying to look into ancient calendars.

I wonder if this is something we can ever know for certain. I can understand why the Israeli New Moon Society wants to wait for the Messiah before implementing a new calendar.

Personally I follow those in Israel who site the new moon for each new month, and keep the Sabbath on the current seventh day we have, to the best of my ability and understanding.

Too many variables have occurred since creation, for anyone but YHVH ( Yeshua) to know for certain.

Please forgive me, I only went to English 102 in college and never did well on source siting. However, I love theological debate.

Here is the link to the only source I sited: https://sites.google.com/site/moonsoc/sanhedrin

I just linked the site, there was no direct quote.

 

[Meowzltov]

The Israelites were using the moon to determine some feasts long before the Babylonian exile.

Feasts are based on the yearlong cycle, not the weekly cycle.

 

[BobRyan]

The idea that pagan calendars were being adopted by the Jews at such a rate that any pagan calendar one can find that fits a preferred story - is just as good as a Jewish Calendar source confirmed - is wishful thinking. The Jews used a yearly calendar determined by the new moon - and a weekly cycle that never changed no matter that they would stick a 13th month into every third year. IT made no change at all to the weekly Sabbath.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Almost all of the volumes of books arguing Sunday vs. Saturday Sabbath fail to understand that the Israelites used a calendar using a combination of the lunar and solar cycle.

Sir Robert Anderson used the 360 day calendar in some of his arguments about Bible prophecy. However, he failed to understand the Israelites made regular corrections to keep the calendar aligned with the solar calendar. If this had not been done, the time of planting would have been in Fall instead of Spring in less than 40 years.

The following article does an excellent job of explaining the Sabbath during ancient times and uses scripture to validate it's claims.

http://christianitybeliefs.org/the-falling-away/the-sabbath-was-changed-to-sunday/

If you are committed to keeping the Old Testament Sabbath, you will need a lunar calendar.

We know the Roman calendar was changed a number of times, before the Julian calendar was devised.

At one time the Romans used a week of 8 days.

The Romans also used calendars at least partially based on the moon in the past.

We also know some of the Israelite feasts were based on the New Moon cycles.

The Israelites had to make corrections to their calendar periodically to make up for the difference between their year and the solar cycle of 365 1/4 days.

What you are claiming does not match up to the calendars from ancient times, such as the one in the link below.

http://www.crystalinks.com/romecalendar.html

This next link shows the use of the Lunar cycles by the Israelites.

http://www.crivoice.org/calendar.html

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Great thread!




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