Syncretism

[Travelers.Soul]

I did not know that this was such a big debate about Islam

here is one idea, that Islam is more of a "Christian heresy" rather then a totally separate religion

two of the main ideas of Islam are Christian ideas, the transcendence of God, and the oneness of God
but they are exaggerated to the point of rejecting Christianity

I'm not sure if I would call Islam a Christian heresy but I don't have time to go into that right now.

The debate, at least in mission circles, is pretty big. There is even a contextualization scale known as the C1- C6 or the "C" scale. This scale is usually applied to Muslim background believers but can be tweaked to be used for those coming out of other religions.

• C-1: Traditional church structure; using the local trade or national language. Often reflects western churches in practices and styles.
• C-2: Traditional church structure; using the people’s daily language. Very similar to C-1, only varies with the closeness of the heart language of the people.
• C-3: Contextualized church structure; local language and local ethnic arts and culture reflected in the worship and ecclesiology of the church.
• C-4: Contextualized congregation structure reflecting local language, local Muslim arts and culture, and the use of biblically acceptable/redeemable Muslim forms, vocabulary, and traditions.
• C-5: Congregations of Muslims who follow Christ yet remain legally and culturally Muslim. By the local Islamic community, they are perceived as Muslims who are spiritually different yet still within the fold. Continuance of Islamic practices (e.g., gong to the Mosque, fasting daily prayers) depends upon each local situation and the leading of the Holy Spirit with the particular C-5 group. The distinguishing feature of C-5 is that these believers are true followers of Christ who have yet remained legally and culturally Muslim, and are part of a community of other such Muslim followers of Jesus.
• C-6: Clusters of secret believers or individual believers within Islam. Such believers have little if any contact with other believers. With the extreme persecution converts experience in some places, this may be the only way one can survive. This could also be called an underground, secret church.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I'm not sure if I would call Islam a Christian heresy but I don't have time to go into that right now.

It may not be anymore, but from what I've studied about the origins of Islam, there is some evidence it might have started out as a Christian heresy.

 

[Rhamiel]

I'm not sure if I would call Islam a Christian heresy but I don't have time to go into that right now.

The debate, at least in mission circles, is pretty big. There is even a contextualization scale known as the C1- C6 or the "C" scale. This scale is usually applied to Muslim background believers but can be tweaked to be used for those coming out of other religions.

• C-1: Traditional church structure; using the local trade or national language. Often reflects western churches in practices and styles.
• C-2: Traditional church structure; using the people’s daily language. Very similar to C-1, only varies with the closeness of the heart language of the people.
• C-3: Contextualized church structure; local language and local ethnic arts and culture reflected in the worship and ecclesiology of the church.
• C-4: Contextualized congregation structure reflecting local language, local Muslim arts and culture, and the use of biblically acceptable/redeemable Muslim forms, vocabulary, and traditions.
• C-5: Congregations of Muslims who follow Christ yet remain legally and culturally Muslim. By the local Islamic community, they are perceived as Muslims who are spiritually different yet still within the fold. Continuance of Islamic practices (e.g., gong to the Mosque, fasting daily prayers) depends upon each local situation and the leading of the Holy Spirit with the particular C-5 group. The distinguishing feature of C-5 is that these believers are true followers of Christ who have yet remained legally and culturally Muslim, and are part of a community of other such Muslim followers of Jesus.
• C-6: Clusters of secret believers or individual believers within Islam. Such believers have little if any contact with other believers. With the extreme persecution converts experience in some places, this may be the only way one can survive. This could also be called an underground, secret church.

hmmm interesting
C-5 sounds close to syncretism, but the definition is laboriously clear that they are "true followers of Christ"
and then it jumps from that to C-6 secret Christians (I have met a few of those in Arab countries)

maybe they should add C-5H class for those who do not follow true Christianity?

also, how would we describe the Oriental Orthodox Churches?
those are Eastern Christian Churches that predate Islam in the Middle East and North Africa
the biggest of these churches are the Egyptian orthodox church called the Coptic Church

 

[Goodbook]

Oh ok. I dont believe that. Vatican is a man made insitution, i dont see anything holy about it.
Jesus said he would bring the kingdom to earth but he didnt say it would be through the pope or vatican. He himself will return.

Many christians who arent catholic would not agree that catholic church is the kiingdom of heaven, and also many whove been abused by their priests would not agree with you.

 

[Travelers.Soul]

It may not be anymore, but from what I've studied about the origins of Islam, there is some evidence it might have started out as a Christian heresy.

The only lasting encounter Muhammad had with a Christian, that I can remember, was a man named Waraqa ibn Nawfal. It is possible that he interacted on a small decree with Christians when he was a merchant but I doubt he gained large sections of religious education over these interactions, it's possible but perhaps doubtful. I know Muhammad was taken to Waraqa after his first vision but I'm not sure how much they interacted prior to the "vision" meeting. Honestly the guy sounds a bit like a loony who had no real understanding of Christianity from what I can recall. That's why I hesitate to say Islam was originally a syncretism of Christianity and anything else. I could be wrong. I am not an expert and I don't know everything. I have been wrong before and I dare say I will be wrong again.

hmmm interesting
C-5 sounds close to syncretism, but the definition is laboriously clear that they are "true followers of Christ"
and then it jumps from that to C-6 secret Christians (I have met a few of those in Arab countries)
maybe they should add C-5H class for those who do not follow true Christianity?

That's why it's a huge debate. How far is too far? How far is not enough? I think most missionaries strive for a C-3 to a C-4 when they are contextualizing things either into a muslim context or into other contexts.

 

[Rhamiel]

the C-4 description

"Muslim arts and culture, and the use of biblically acceptable/redeemable Muslim forms, vocabulary, and traditions."

I think that is the the Catholic goal in every culture
but the Catholic Church also has a bit more narrowly defined idea of orthodoxy

 

[Goodbook]

as far as I know Mormonism is a syncretism of christianity and freemasonry..they go a lot further than presybterians, which are only slightly I think. They are very much into church buildings and governance.

 

[Goodbook]

mormon 'temples' are just freemason buildings and their rituals are christianised freemasonry rites.

 

[Goodbook]

John calvin I think tried a similar thing in Geneva making his own Jerusalem.
Mormon's New Jerusalem or Mecca if you will is Salt Lake City.

 

[Goodbook]

Catholics is the Vatican.

anyway...carry on. interesting discussion. But God doesn't really like this kind of mixture.
He prefers a pure bride.

 

[Rhamiel]

as far as I know Mormonism is a syncretism of christianity and freemasonry..they go a lot further than presybterians, which are only slightly I think. They are very much into church buildings and governance.

mormon 'temples' are just freemason buildings and their rituals are christianised freemasonry rites.

do you have anything to back this up?

i am not familiar enough with Mormonism to say if it is close to Freemasonry

and building nice buildings does not really prove they are masons

 

[Goodbook]

Google is your friend.

 

[redblue22]

I feel it would be ridiculous to even try to respond to this thread. (including my submission)

 

[Jack of Spades]

Is there a difference between religious eclecticism and religious syncretism? Or are they the same thing? I'm familiar with eclecticism, but not so much with syncretism.

Definition of Eclecticism by Wikipedia:

"In religion, Eclectics use elements from multiple religions, applied philosophies, personal experiences or other texts and dogmas to form their own beliefs and ideas, noting the similarities between existing systems and practices, and recognizing them as valid. These ideas include life, karma, the afterlife, God and Goddess, the Earth, and other spiritual ideas. This spiritual approach is promoted by Unitarian Universalism. Some use a mix of Abrahamic, Dharmic, Neopagan, Shamanism, Daoic doctrines, New Age, religious pluralism, and Syncretism. Eclectics are most interested in what really works, personally and communally."

 

[William67]

hmmm arguable
while the New Testament does not have unity between church and state
but the New Testament was written when Israel was occupied by the pagan Roman Empire
we can see times when Israel was occupied by other pagan Empires, like the book of Daniel for example
Daniel was a court official for the King of Babylon
so their is Biblical precedent for being a good citizen when you are in a Pagan country... but that was never seen as the ideal
many modern Christians view separation of Church and State as ideal.

I don't think most Christians see Separation of Church and State as ideal. I think they see it as, tolerable. Why? Because in a nation with many different people, what happens when enough people decide that they want a new "State Religion"? The original intent of the Separation clause wasn't to remove God from politics, it was to prevent government from interfering in what is essentially a private matter. Anyone who has studied history knows what happens when one religion, or lack of religion, reigns supreme. There usually comes a time when they "official" religion begins to prey upon smaller religions or sects. We saw this in Communist Regimes and especially during the Reformation and Muslim Conquest.

 

[Travelers.Soul]

Is there a difference between religious eclecticism and religious syncretism? Or are they the same thing? I'm familiar with eclecticism, but not so much with syncretism.

Definition of Eclecticism by Wikipedia:

"In religion, Eclectics use elements from multiple religions, applied philosophies, personal experiences or other texts and dogmas to form their own beliefs and ideas, noting the similarities between existing systems and practices, and recognizing them as valid. These ideas include life, karma, the afterlife, God and Goddess, the Earth, and other spiritual ideas. This spiritual approach is promoted by Unitarian Universalism. Some use a mix of Abrahamic, Dharmic, Neopagan, Shamanism, Daoic doctrines, New Age, religious pluralism, and Syncretism. Eclectics are most interested in what really works, personally and communally."

I don't believe I have ever heard of this before but it sounds like syncretism on steroids. It sounds like they threw a little bit of everything into a pot, gave it a stir, and the dumped it out to see the result.

 

[Jack of Spades]

I don't believe I have ever heard of this before but it sounds like syncretism on steroids. It sounds like they threw a little bit of everything into a pot, gave it a stir, and the dumped it out to see the result.

Yeah, it's high gear subjectivity and individualism.

I gave this some thinking and I think the difference between the two might be that syncretism has some sort of end product, whereas eclecticism is ongoing process which doesn't even intend to have final product (altho it might have static periods). But that's just my hunch.

Edit: I changed my title to "Syncretist in steroids" for a sec, but then realized that it might be mistaken to mean I'm promoting steroids by staff, so took it off

 

[Travelers.Soul]

Yeah, it's high gear subjectivity and individualism.

I gave this some thinking and I think the difference between the two might be that syncretism has some sort of end product, whereas eclecticism is ongoing process which doesn't even intend to have final product (altho it might have static periods). But that's just my hunch.

Edit: I changed my status message for "Syncretist in steroids" for a sec, but then realized that it might be mistaken to mean I'm promoting steroids, so took it off

You may be right. Sycretism, where as it does occasionally fluctuate, is basically a set religious system after a point.

 

[GQ Chris]

The OP's original post shouldn't be surprising, the roman catholic church has always been very Ecumenical.