Speaking in Tongues

[Love Jonezing]

I disagree. Some believe worshipping Mary is heretical. Will those Pentecostals go to hell?

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

I disagree. Some believe worshipping Mary is heretical. Will those Pentecostals go to hell?

Who worships Mary?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I disagree. Some believe worshipping Mary is heretical. Will those Pentecostals go to hell?

no one worships Mary....those Pentecostals who refuse to worship Mary will not go to hell for that, because they are right to not worship her. only should worship God. they might go to hell for other reasons, but not that one.

 

[Love Jonezing]

no one worships Mary....those Pentecostals who refuse to worship Mary will not go to hell for that, because they are right to not worship her. only should worship God. they might go to hell for other reasons, but not that one.

This is what I pulled from the Orthodox Church of America, "We believe that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God. Through her He Who was God before the ages took on our human nature without relinquishing His divine nature or confusing or “meshing” it with the human nature in any way. The Mother of God is often referred to as the “New Eve,” for she said “yes” to God whereas the first Eve said “no.” We believe that the Mother of God was sinless of her own free will, that she remains ever-virgin, and that she is the “living tabernacle” of God inasmuch as her womb, as one hymn states, becomes “more spacious than the heavens” by carrying within it the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ". How does this sound to you?

 

[buzuxi02]

If anyone rejects Mary as the symbolic holy of holies, rejects she was set apart as a holy vessel to contain within her womb the Logos who took on flesh from her, then is guilty of a soul condemning heresy.
The above is Christological, one should not fear that it falls into worship, instead anyone that denies the above should fear they fall into blasphemy concerning the incarnation.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

This is what I pulled from the Orthodox Church of America, "We believe that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God. Through her He Who was God before the ages took on our human nature without relinquishing His divine nature or confusing or “meshing” it with the human nature in any way. The Mother of God is often referred to as the “New Eve,” for she said “yes” to God whereas the first Eve said “no.” We believe that the Mother of God was sinless of her own free will, that she remains ever-virgin, and that she is the “living tabernacle” of God inasmuch as her womb, as one hymn states, becomes “more spacious than the heavens” by carrying within it the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ". How does this sound to you?

I'm not trying to be rude to you, but in no terms of basic reading comprehension does that quotation suggest or state that the Orthodox worship Mary. Like buzuxi said, the entire point of the above is Christology, and to deny any of the statements above denies the hypostatic union. Doing so is contrary to standard Christian theology.

 

[Love Jonezing]

I'm not trying to be rude to you, but in no terms of basic reading comprehension does that quotation suggest or state that the Orthodox worship Mary. Like buzuxi said, the entire point of the above is Christology, and to deny any of the statements above denies the hypostatic union. Doing so is contrary to standard Christian theology.

I understand what you are saying but how would you define seeking to Mary's spirit? To support my last statement, I also pulled this from the same page. "Properly speaking, Orthodox Christians do not “pray to” the Mother of God instead of God; we seek her intercession before her Son, asking her to pray on our behalf; another Orthodox hymn states that “the prayers of a mother availeth much before her Son. Does this contradict 1 Timothy 2:5 which states, "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"?
Correct me if I am wrong, but from this perspective seeking Mary's spirit could be a form of worship. I could see how someone could interpret ”Leviticus 20:27 as a form of worship because states, “A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death.” Medium here is defined as a necromancer; one who evokes the dead. Saul did the same thing in 1 Samuel 28:7-19. How do you interpret this? I will conclude with, please forgive me if I seem abrasive or rude. That is not my intent.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

That sounds like ignorance of basic Christian and Biblical principles.

You do know that, for instance, Solomon's mother had a special place as an adviser, such as bringing certain petitions to his attention. This happens several times in First Kings. This is because the mother of the king at that time period in Jewish history had a special place. Likewise, Mary as the Theotokos has a special place, as Christ (aside from his importance as the Word/Logos) is also the new Davidic king and is a successor of David. Petitions to Mary are, therefore, considered to be important as she can intercede for us. At any rate, Mary and the Saints are not dead; physically deceased believers -- such as the Saints -- are alive in Christ. They are part of the communion of Saints. It's absolutely not necromancy; furthermore, necromancy in the OT has nothing to do with worship of spirits.

 

[Love Jonezing]

That sounds like ignorance of basic Christian and Biblical principles.

You do know that, for instance, Solomon's mother had a special place as an adviser, such as bringing certain petitions to his attention. This happens several times in First Kings. This is because the mother of the king at that time period in Jewish history had a special place. Likewise, Mary as the Theotokos has a special place, as Christ (aside from his importance as the Word/Logos) is also the new Davidic king and is a successor of David. Petitions to Mary are, therefore, considered to be important as she can intercede for us. At any rate, Mary and the Saints are not dead; physically deceased believers -- such as the Saints -- are alive in Christ. They are part of the communion of Saints. It's absolutely not necromancy; furthermore, necromancy in the OT has nothing to do with worship of spirits.

I understand your position and once again, forgive me as I see this topic is a little sensitive. However, out of curiosity, why did the website refer to her as the "new eve" if her position is advisor. Also, does new eve imply marriage? I am completely lost by the title new eve.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

I understand your position and once again, forgive me as I see this topic is a little sensitive. However, out of curiosity, why did the website refer to her as the "new eve" if her position is advisor. Also, does new eve imply marriage? I am completely lost by the title new eve.

Symbolically and realistically, she is both. The terminology and actions of Jewish kings are important for understanding Jesus's ministry and role; this also makes these same principles important to Mary's role. In terms of the covenants of the Bible, Eve said "No" to God whereas Mary said "Yes." Symbolically and realistically, Mary is also the New Ark of the Covenant. If you take the Bible and its contents at face value alone, you begin missing the finer points of theology and the greater truths.

 

[Love Jonezing]

Symbolically and realistically, she is both. The terminology and actions of Jewish kings are important for understanding Jesus's ministry and role; this also makes these same principles important to Mary's role. In terms of the covenants of the Bible, Eve said "No" to God whereas Mary said "Yes." Symbolically and realistically, Mary is also the New Ark of the Covenant. If you take the Bible and its contents at face value alone, you begin missing the finer points of theology and the greater truths.

I am not trying to beat a dead horse, but why did none of the apostle feel the need to address such an important topic?

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

I am not trying to beat a dead horse, but why did none of the apostle feel the need to address such an important topic?

What are you even talking about?

 

[ArmyMatt]

This is what I pulled from the Orthodox Church of America, "We believe that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God. Through her He Who was God before the ages took on our human nature without relinquishing His divine nature or confusing or “meshing” it with the human nature in any way. The Mother of God is often referred to as the “New Eve,” for she said “yes” to God whereas the first Eve said “no.” We believe that the Mother of God was sinless of her own free will, that she remains ever-virgin, and that she is the “living tabernacle” of God inasmuch as her womb, as one hymn states, becomes “more spacious than the heavens” by carrying within it the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ". How does this sound to you?

it sounds like she is the Mother of Jesus (who is God), that she was sinless because the ancient faith did not view sin in the legalistic way that modern Protestants do (tis what happens when you remove a work from it's context and language) and affirm she was still caught by sin and in need of a Savior, and that she never had sex. none of these statements say she is worshiped.

again though, when one leaves context and language, one makes assumptions that are faulty.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am not trying to beat a dead horse, but why did none of the apostle feel the need to address such an important topic?

because that was not the point of the NT Gospels or Epistles.

 

[Love Jonezing]

it sounds like she is the Mother of Jesus (who is God), that she was sinless because the ancient faith did not view sin in the legalistic way that modern Protestants do (tis what happens when you remove a work from it's context and language) and affirm she was still caught by sin and in need of a Savior, and that she never had sex. none of these statements say she is worshiped.

again though, when one leaves context and language, one makes assumptions that are faulty.

I don't feel like I left context. I just don't understand what it means when it says "we seek her intercession". What does that look like? She is a spirit. I mean, if it says in the bible or another place that I should pray to another spirit please show me were. Let me see for myself. Also, where does it say that she was given the position of eternal mother of God; intercessor of man? I hear what you are saying and I truly want to understand. This is a very important topic, the apostles should have said some thing about it? True or false?

 

[prodromos]

I don't feel like I left context. I just don't understand what it means when it says "we seek her intercession". What does that look like? She is a spirit.

She is a person, a Christian, a member of Christ's body the Church.

I mean, if it says in the bible or another place that I should pray to another spirit please show me were. Let me see for myself.

We are exhorted to pray for one another, as this is an expression of the love we are to have for one another in the Church, the body of Christ. Why are you creating a false dichotomy of spirit and (I presume) flesh. We don't cease to be when our flesh dies, and more importantly we don't cease to be members of Christ's body. When one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers.

Also, where does it say that she was given the position of eternal mother of God;

My ancestors are still my ancestors despite them not having been around for some time. My parents will always be my parents, though in Christ they are also my brother and sister because we are all adopted children of God.

intercessor of man?

We are all intercessors of man when we pray for each other. The bible states that the prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective, and throughout the history of the Orthodox Church we have seen this consistently demonstrated through the innumerable miracles through the Saints and especially through Mary. God loves that we love the Saints and that they love us, otherwise He wouldn't be pouring out such an abundance of His grace on their behalf.

I hear what you are saying and I truly want to understand. This is a very important topic, the apostles should have said some thing about it? True or false?

When Bishop (now Saint) Nektarios of Pentapolis died in a hospital bed, a nurse and a nun began to change his clothes to prepare him for burial. The nurse took his gown off and threw it onto the next bed in which lay a paralytic, who was immediately healed and jumped out of bed praising God. Saint Nektarios has continued to be a fervent intercessor since then, with many more people being healed through his prayers, so naturally many people ask him to pray for them and the same is especially true for Mary, as she has demonstrated herself to be a fervent intercessor for whoever seeks her prayers.

 

[Love Jonezing]

She is a person, a Christian, a member of Christ's body the Church.

This is true that she is a member of the body of Christ, but that is it. If Christ is the head of the body (Colossians 1:18 ), then how is she His mother? These relationships are severed after death (Matthew 22:30). This why Christ probably asked, who is my mother (Matthew 12:48, Mark 3:35), not that He didn't know who his mother was but that she is/was beneath Him in authority, power, and majesty and everything else. She is just like the rest of the saints. Jesus told to the disciples that they would judge the twelve tribes (Matthew 19:28). Where is it told to Mary that she will have this authority as eternal mother or intercessor? Where is it told to anyone that they can intercede for another after they are dead? Also, can someone please name one, at least one of the apostle that prayed to Mary? Please, I need this information.

Why are you creating a false dichotomy of spirit and (I presume) flesh

Because this seems to closely parallel the Semiramis/Tammuz belief.

My ancestors are still my ancestors despite them not having been around for some time.

This is true but where does it say I should pray to them for help. My belief is that the Lord is my shepherd (Psalms 23:1, John 10:11).

The bible states that the prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective

This is true but she died and is with the Lord but this scripture applies to the living on earth.

When Bishop (now Saint) Nektarios of Pentapolis died in a hospital bed, a nurse and a nun began to change his clothes to prepare him for burial. The nurse took his gown off and threw it onto the next bed in which lay a paralytic, who was immediately healed and jumped out of bed praising God. Saint Nektarios has continued to be a fervent intercessor since then, with many more people being healed through his prayers, so naturally many people ask him to pray for them and the same is especially true for Mary, as she has demonstrated herself to be a fervent intercessor for whoever seeks her prayers.

This a very inspiring story but how does it apply to Mary, after death? No offense. I am really struggling to see this concept because something so important should be a foundational principle, yet I have not seen anywhere in the new testament where this is taught. If you know of a place, please let me know.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't feel like I left context.

history would suggest otherwise. you are treating the Bible like something that came out of a vacuum, and more like the Koran. I did this when I was Protestant back in the day.

I just don't understand what it means when it says "we seek her intercession". What does that look like? She is a spirit. I mean, if it says in the bible or another place that I should pray to another spirit please show me were.

Lazarus and the rich man. the rich man, who is dead, petitions Abraham who is also dead. that is asking intercession. you also have St Peter saying it in his epistles, that after he dies he will continue to labor for the Church.

Also, where does it say that she was given the position of eternal mother of God

eternal? nowhere and we don't say that. Mother of God is from when St Elizabeth greets her.

intercessor of man?

see the wedding at Cana for her actual intercession, and see two posts above.

I hear what you are saying and I truly want to understand.

good and I hear you, this is a very different POV

This is a very important topic, the apostles should have said some thing about it? True or false?

well, they did speak about it, as did their successors. the question is of interpretation.

 

[GregConstantine]

“It is Christ Himself, not the Bible, who is the true word of God. The Bible, read in the right spirit and with the guidance of good teachers, will bring us to Him. We must not use the Bible as a sort of encyclopedia out of which texts can be taken for use as weapons.”
―C. S. Lewis

 

[Love Jonezing]

“It is Christ Himself, not the Bible, who is the true word of God. The Bible, read in the right spirit and with the guidance of good teachers, will bring us to Him. We must not use the Bible as a sort of encyclopedia out of which texts can be taken for use as weapons.”
―C. S. Lewis

It is starting to sound like the bible is something that I should use as a good history book or something that I can't take literally; unless it has been proven historically or by science, maybe those parts. It also sounds like it is not the inspired word of God; it is not error free, just like any other book. If this is true, I can simply believe in Christ and still practice all kinds of sin and still gain salvation. Sounds like, if I have gay minister who is good (gives alms, feed the poor, visit the sick) and reads in the right spirit, I will be OK under his leadership. On that note, which part do I take literally; if that is necessary? That perspective makes it even more interesting because who is the authority on where the dividing line is for which part to take literally and which part to not take seriously?