Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

[BobRyan]

I looked up one of the quotes the actor was referencing -

The Signs of the Times, August 5, 1907, p. 489:

Papal Claims "...I will give $1000 to any man who will prove by the Bible alone that Sunday is the day we are bound to keep. . . . The observance of Sunday is "The Pope's will stands for reason. He can dispense solely a law of the Catholic Church. . . . The church changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and all the world bows down and worships upon that day, in silent obedience to the mandates of the Catholic Church."— "Father" Enright, of the College of Redemptorist Fathers, Kansas City, Mo., in Hartford (Mo.) Weekly Call, Feb. 22, 1884.

"The Catholic Church says, No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And, lo, the entire civilised world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church !"—'Father" T. Enright, C.S.S.R., of Redemptorist College, Kansas City, Mo., in American Sentinel, June 1, 1893.
Please note the sources are different in the video and in Signs of the Times (Hartford, Mo. vs. Hartford, Ks).

• There is an obituary of a Redemptorist Timothy Enright that may the guy being quoted
• The Signs of the Times second quote sources the American Sentinel which is from the Philadelphia newspaper shut down in 1840.

 

[Meowzltov]

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

Bob: observing the Sabbath is a commandment given only to Israel. The Church has the authority given to it by Christ to interpret what is given to the body of Christ to do and observe. They have done so.

 

[Meowzltov]

Bob: you keep employing the same fallacious reasoning over and over and over. If it is fallacious the first time around, it will be fallacious in your hundredth post as well. You can quote a zillion Catholics who misrepresent catholic teaching. People make mistakes. Proper teaching is that the Lord's Day is Sunday and always has been. Proper teaching is that it is the SOLEMNITY which was transferred from saturday to sunday. I'm going to just start ignoring your posts.

 

[BobRyan]

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

Given that all the RCC sources (even the Catholic Catechism) argue for the "Continued" TEN (and not a downsized NINE for gentiles)

Bob: observing the Sabbath is a commandment given only to Israel. The Church has the authority given to it by Christ to interpret what is given to the body of Christ to do and observe. They have done so.

So then you are claiming a "downsized NINE" for gentiles?? If so then why the "transfer of solemnity" from a commandment that no longer exists only to have us "left with nine" as the result??

 

[Meowzltov]

So then you are claiming a "downsized NINE" for gentiles?? If so then why the "transfer of solemnity" from a commandment that no longer exists only to have us "left with nine" as the result??

I certainly believe that all the commandments, all 613, still exist for Jews. Gentiles obey Natural Law, much of which is repeated in the 10.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob: you keep employing the same fallacious reasoning over and over and over. If it is fallacious the first time around, it will be fallacious in your hundredth post as well. You can quote a zillion Catholics who misrepresent catholic teaching.

The idea that Pope John Paul II and your own CC commentary - and the CCC itself are all just so many "Catholics misrepresenting Catholic teaching" because they "differ with you" is a subjective position hardly capable of sustaining your false accusation above for the objective unbiased reader.

Proper teaching is that it is the SOLEMNITY which was transferred from saturday to sunday.

A point you have repeatedly been asked to clarify and you refuse - perhaps because doing so would negate your entire argument.

 

[BobRyan]

In that quote we see "TEN" and not "630"

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!

Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"

1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??

2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -

Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================

You have argued that in your view as a Catholic these two Catholic sources are wrong and you are right.

You are free to do that.

In these quotes we see "TEN Commandments" and "DECALOGUE" not "630"
2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

However these Catholic Catechism statements seem to support what John Paul II and what "The Faith Explained" have said in their two points above --

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

So now back to the question you keep avoiding

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

 

[Meowzltov]

A point you have repeatedly been asked to clarify and you refuse - perhaps because doing so would negate your entire argument.

Bob I've stated it in plain English, which I know you speak.

 

[BobRyan]

I do agree that I speak english - and I read it. And the Catholic sources we find here
Saturday at 10:09 PM #387
are pretty easy to read.

 

[Meowzltov]

I do agree that I speak english - and I read it. And the Catholic sources we find here
Saturday at 10:09 PM #387
are pretty easy to read.

You are still quoting Catholic sources that don't prove your point. I quoted Catholic sources too, but did you listen? No, you resorted to rediculous assertions such as the Catholic Encyclopedia being wrong or Ignatius being a fraud. You fail to grasp the idea of the SOLEMNITY of Sabbath being transferred to the Lord's Day (Sunday) and Sunday therefore being referred to sometimes as the Sabbath in a figurative sense, as when we talk about keeping the 3rd commandment (what you call the 4th commndment).

 

[Meowzltov]

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

I haven't avoided it. I've described it many, many, many times. It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine. For me, I keep a Saturday Sabbath of rest (as I'm a Jew) and also keep the solemnity of the Lord's Day by attending Mass. So it really doesn't bother me that you disagree. I just wish that you could see that the Lord's Day and the Sabbath are kept in two entirely different ways, and therefore don't conflict. They only thing they really have in common is that both are holy.

 

[BobRyan]

I haven't avoided it. I've described it many, many, many times. It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

In legal terms when a commandment has its authority and obligation transferred - what is that called?

As you point out "we did this" - and you are fine with it. I am just asking for some focus on the exact nature of what was done.

 

[Meowzltov]

Bob: to reiterate, when Catholics speak of switching the Sabbath to Sunday, as in Pope JP2's quote, they are referring to switching the Solemnity. This is not something different, it is a CLARIFICATION.

 

[Meowzltov]

From the Aspostolic Letter, DIES DOMINI, JP2, July 5 1998

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. THE SABBATH IS NOT A MEMORIAL OF CHRIST RISING FROM THE DEAD.

Notice it doesn't say From Saturday to Sunday. It says "the first day after the Sabbath." So it doesn't change the Sabbath, which remains where it was. It is merely the holy day which is switched from Sabbath to Sunday.

Yes, in many ways Sunday is kept LIKE the Sabbath, as it is holy, and is a seventh day, and so the Catholic church looks to sabbath law for inspiration. This STILL does not make it the Sabbath.

 

[Meowzltov]

In legal terms when a commandment has its authority and obligation transferred - what is that called?

It is simply called transferrence. Nothing more. Nothing less. The church has the authority to do this. It's like the government changing the route of a highway.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is simply called transferrence. Nothing more. Nothing less. The church has the authority to do this. It's like the government changing the route of a highway.

Your church can claim to have any authority it wants, but it hardly means that it actually has that authority from God.

 

[Meowzltov]

Your church can claim to have any authority it wants, but it hardly means that it actually has that authority from God.

That's where you and I disagree, eh?

 

[BobRyan]

SDA claim to use the Catechism to show what Catholics believe. Are they telling the truth about what Catholics believe?

Your church can claim to have any authority it wants, but it hardly means that it actually has that authority from God.

The "Sola Scriptura" model of Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13 argues against the idea of changing the requirements dictated by the Law of God - no matter how well intentioned those changes.

 

[Cribstyl]

The "Sola Scriptura" model of Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13 argues against the idea of changing the requirements dictated by the Law of God - no matter how well intentioned those changes.

The commandments of God are not limited to the ten commandments as you imply.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

I don't see what the huge deal is with the Sabbath being changed to the first day rather then the last. It symbolizes a new beginning, and the assumption of Christ. It represents the Sun and the Light bearer.

The Sabbath used to be to celebrate creation, but Jesus has it now to where we should take joy in Paradise, away from creation. So it even makes logical sense in due respect to what we are even making reverence of on the Sabbath.